Can a lawyer do Ch 7 for credit cards while you do the adversary proceeding yourself?

[justmehere]

Is it possible to have an attorney do the plain ole Ch. 7 for credit cards and then represent yourself in an adversary proceeding to attempt to discharge your student loans because of undue hardship?

Because if there is a 99% chance I won't win the adversary, I can't fork over the additional $5000 or so it would cost to do the adversary. But I'll never forgive myself if I don't at least try and maybe rub it in along the way that it's just bad bad law - student loan debt should not be made different from any other debt - the system needs to be changed. Put in a required ten year minimum between taking out the loan and filing for bankruptcy if you must so there is no "abuse," but CHANGE THE SYSTEM! Why punish people for being optimistic, well-meaning kids just trying to make something of themselves, who had it rubbed in their faces by parents and teachers and culture that an education was the path to a better life, who had no credit checks, who had no money management counseling or classes? Why are they worse than someone who charges a bunch of shoes and trips to a credit card? The FRESH START PRINCIPLE NEEDS TO APPLY TO EVERYBODY. It hurts the taxpayers? Firstly, student loan debtors are taxpayers, too, and, secondly, they can not help it that the system is set up this way, and, thirdly, society will be a lot better off if it frees debtors and allows people, older and wiser, a second chance and an opportunity to train for and take worthwhile jobs that will do society good. We all make mistakes when we're kids; everybody should be given a second chance!

OK, I'm just practicing for the adversary proceeding, but back to my question above. Thanks!

[cathywhite4495]

You might want to to talk to some attorneys and see what they're willing to do. From what I'm read, getting student loans discharged is pretty close to impossible. There is a very narrow set of events that has to happen in order to get them discharged.
I owe tons in student loans and I'm a teacher so you know I don't make much money THere are some other options for student loans that you might not be aware of that may make it so you don't need to try to get them discharged:
1) There are a number of different deferment and forbearance options if you are temporarily unable to pay.
2) Look at the different repayment plans. The one that I plan on using is the income contingent repayment plan. They use my family size and income to see how much I can afford for a payment. If I did the standard repayment, my patment would be $1000 a month but with the contingent plan, my payment is only $222. THere are also a few other options.
3) After you've been paying for 25 years they forgive the rest. You do have to pay taxes on the write-off but you're free of the loan. This means that you won't be saddled with the loan until you die.
All these are applicable if you have federal loans. I did a federal consolidation and it wrapped in the loans I had with the college I went to.
Hopefully going to college gave you what you needed to get a better paying job than what you would have had otherwise. I took out more than I should have in loans but you live and learn. I have found the direct loan people to be pretty easy to work with so you might want to look at some of these other options before investing the time and money into trying to get them discharged.
Good luck!

[justmehere]

Hi, cathywhite4495. I get to talking like a small child when I'm really upset, I guess. But I'm nearly 40. I've had the student loans for 14 years, originally $57,000, I put over 22,000 on them until I could afford to do it no more and set and reset the clock on forbearances and deferments for the past seven years, and now the balance is stuck at $59,000. I won't go into my life story except to say I applied for dozens of jobs, couldn't afford to stay in New York where I got my masters, and had to teach myself the computer (had no skills then) and settle for selling on ebay. Although I did okay at first, I've made around the poverty level for the past seven years. I cared for my dad for the past ten years; he died three months ago. There's a long list of shoulda woulda couldas of course, but I can't undo the past, and I thought this would be my last resort, but I remember reading about that ICR plan in that Chuck Stewart book Bankrupt your Student Loans and going huh? So, even though I'm not crazy about the tax part which is one reason I didn't consider a compromise with the Dept. of Ed., I'll look into that as well - thanks for your help and for being so kind! Teachers rule

[HHM]

To answer your basic question, yes, a lawyer can handle your chapter 7 and you can still do the adversary proceeding pro se. In fact, that scenario is somewhat common as most retainer agreements that BK lawyers give you will specifically exclude representing you in an adversary proceeding.

As for your argument...despite what you may see in certain trial and TV court room shows, the "injustice" argument doesn't win. You still need to prove the underlying elements of the case, i.e. that because of "xyz", for the foreseeable future, you cannot both meet your living expenses and pay your students loans and therefore, your student loan debt should be discharged.

[biotechsolution]

The only way I've seen student loans get discharged is if you are in some way disabled and not able to work.
The court is going to ask you what your masters was in and why can't you get a job in either your undergraduate or graduate fields. In addition they will ask you can't work in any fied.

It is darn near impossible to get them discharged but I'm sure the book tells a completely different story.

[freshstart06]

my mother is in her late 50s and still paying on student loans. They seem to never go away.

[lrprn]

my mother is in her late 50s and still paying on student loans. They seem to never go away.

FS, ask your mom to take a look at these student loan repayment options - http://www.finaid.org/loans/repayment.phtml

Depending on the type of student loans she has, it's possible there may be a maximum number of years she has to pay before whatever is left is discharged! It's worth a look - hope this helps!

[Lindsay]

I'm a full time college student. Fortunately our income is low, I'm going to a cheap community college, and I haven't had to take out student loans yet. I'm only in my 2nd year though, I'm sure it will get more expensive if I go to the 4 year school later. I had figured that if I needed to take loans, I would do it later. I've been listening to Dave Ramsey everyday even though we are filing BK; I want to prevent a future problem. Our finances are so out of control from using credit that I don't even know what my monthly expenses truly are.

On the Dave Ramsey show, people call in with huge amount of student loan debt sometimes. One couple owed $250,000 in student loans between them. This really shocks me and I hope to avoid loans and be very frugal after BK to afford finishing school. I think that the lenders need to have limits on what you can borrow for a particuliar profession. I can understand if you get a law or medical degree, but some people have huge student loan debt and are only making $35,000 a year.

I think doing this part without a lawyer would be good because there is only a small chance. I'd try to research it as much as you can and give it your best shot. I agree it would be foolish to waste the money on a lawyer unless you had at least a 50% chance of getting it done.

Good luck to you.

[HHM]

However, if you have a good chance of getting the student loan's discharge, you might be shooting yourself in the foot if you go in without a lawyer. This type of proceeding is not some small claims court action where you sit and tell the judge your side of the story and then the bank tells there side.

More often than not, expert witnesses are required. As the plaintiff, you will probably need expert witnesses to testify about your earning potential, if you are basing your claim on a medical or psychological disability, you will need expert testimony to substantiate your claim, you will need accountants or actuaries to run statistics and testify about persons in similar circumstances, etc. This type of proceeding is not "simple".

[cathywhite4495]

Lindsay - You're taking the smart way right now with not using loans. I borrowed way way more than I needed. I started out at a community college and paid cash or used grants. I was also working full time and a single mom. After a couple of years of this, I decided to take out loans and drop my work load to part time. I ended up borrowing way more than I needed (those fat checks twice a year were too tempting). I was smarter when I went to grad school but the damage had been done. Even once you go to a 4 year college, it sounds like you'll keep making smart financial decisions.
One way or another, I'm paying for my kids when they go to college so they won't owe a dime in loans when they get done. It's like starting your whole future at a disadvantage.

[justmehere]

Thanks, everyone, for your help. Yes, I can see it is HOPELESS for me.

I know the book is not the Holy Grail; an unusually excessive amount of grammatical errors and missing information tipped me off. I AM still in the early stages of researching all of this. I'm not going to just prance in and start rambling like a fool and pointing fingers. I'll give them what paperwork and testimony they need.

I know injustice arguments don't work; everybody has an injustice argument. There's even this website I came across today after reading this article

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/16/news/companies/pluggedin_mclean_sallie.fortune/index.htm

http://www.studentloanjustice.org/

I'm not going to get disheartened. I'm still going to go in there and try.

And in the likely event I do not succeed, I suppose I'll be grateful just to get rid of those credit cards.

It's only been 9 years since the 1998 Bankruptcy Reform Act; maybe they'll change the law again. And maybe they won't. Have to make voices heard, though.

Lindsay, do everything you can to avoid those loans. I won't offer anything else, because there are others better equipped to help you, except to say, Good luck to you as well!

I wish I had the internet in 1991.

Thanks again, everyone!!!