Land - What to do with it?

OK, so we bought this land years ago for $10k. We pd for it in full. Later we somehow got someone at a local bank to write us a loan with the land as collateral for $28k (to pay off cc's... this was in 2002 I think). The balance due now is about $11k.

We always knew the land was not worth 28k... but always intended on paying the loan in full.

We have been trying to sell the land for 5 years. As our balance has gone down, we have dropped the price. No takers.

I recently called an auction house and asked if they could sell it - all we need is $11k. They said - not worth it.

Anyway - we are planning to file in Feb or March of 08 and I was wondering - what should we do with this land?

I would really like to sell it - even if we just get enough to pay off the loan since it is a local bank... small town... etc.

But will that cause problems? Not sure yet if we will end up in a 7 or 13.

The land is currently not listed for sale, but I would like to relist it...

PS I was off the forum for a while and got back on and read the threads about Kids and 341 ... and now the one ... well, you know... and all I have to say is that I have gotten nothing but honesty from people on this site and anyone who posts here needs to understand no one is going to sugar coat anything if its not in your best interest. Just saying... if someone questions your intentions... it's because they want you to be prepared :)

You can try to sell it all day long, it doesn't sound like you will make any money off it and if you do, then spend it on normal living expenses. I doubt you would want to keep it, but I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it, the only issue that may come up if it is classified as an unneccesary expense( this is only if you are wanting to keep it after the BK) but that would really only be an issue if it is that payment that puts you upside down. A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

Welcome back Gymbo. I've wondered what happened to you. About a couple of things, those of us that take time to think about other peoples problems, when we have so many of our own, do this for a couple reasons. The first is to aid another human being in their pain, the second is for our own catharsis. We can only work with info supplied, as most of us I dare say, do not read minds. In each case, the information was changed and appeared to be molded around each person's opinion to fit what the person asking wanted to hear, not what would be best for them with a consensus of opinions being the same. If you ask a question but are not seriously wishing a person's opinion unless it is what you wish to hear, why ask at all? And that's all I'm going to say as well. 'Hub

A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

Gee, that kinda strikes me as dishonest. What if the bk hasn't been closed yet and the trustee finds out they are still paying on it. Wouldn't the debtor be in big trouble????

I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it,

How can anyone guarantee that a Trustee would not want a piece of land? Certainly it has some value even if not $11,000.

Hi Gymbo! Glad to see you back :)

You can try to sell it all day long, it doesn't sound like you will make any money off it and if you do, then spend it on normal living expenses. I doubt you would want to keep it, but I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it, the only issue that may come up if it is classified as an unneccesary expense( this is only if you are wanting to keep it after the BK) but that would really only be an issue if it is that payment that puts you upside down. A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

I think it would matter if the property could be sold for a profit, if you could sell it in a day on ebay for 13k then im sure you would either have to exempt or lose it. Also, ride throughs are not allowed in some states so depending on the state someone could actually lose thier property in this manner.

Unrelated question, what are the differences (legal) in cousel/preparation/filing between a lawyer/paralegal/doc preparer. I understand the differences between a lawyer and a doc preparer, but I am completely unaware as to where a paralegal falls within this spectrum.

Gee, that kinda strikes me as dishonest. What if the bk hasn't been closed yet and the trustee finds out they are still paying on it. Wouldn't the debtor be in big trouble????

I don't think it would be dishonest if we are up front about it - and the trustee decides they don't want it...
And there is certainly nothing dishonest about paying debts up until discharge... also, if we kept it (and I really don't want it eithor - which is why we have been trying to sell it for our balance due) we would still have to pay for it... so not sure what would be dishonest about that?

I am just worried that IF we would manage to sell it before filing it would appear as if we sold it for less than its worth since we did, under some miracle, get a $28k loan with this 2 acre residential lot as collaterol.

BTW if anyone wants a 2 acre lot in N. Wisconsin, I have one to sell. Although I may be on the wrong forum for that. Haha.

I don't think it would be dishonest if we are up front about it - and the trustee decides they don't want it...
And there is certainly nothing dishonest about paying debts up until discharge... also, if we kept it (and I really don't want it eithor - which is why we have been trying to sell it for our balance due) we would still have to pay for it... so not sure what would be dishonest about that?

I am just worried that IF we would manage to sell it before filing it would appear as if we sold it for less than its worth since we did, under some miracle, get a $28k loan with this 2 acre residential lot as collaterol.

BTW if anyone wants a 2 acre lot in N. Wisconsin, I have one to sell. Although I may be on the wrong forum for that. Haha.

Oh my, not you gymbo. My post was aimed at bkparalegal telling you to tell the trustee you were surrendering the property, but then keep paying and tell the bank you wanted to keep it, after the trustee thinks you are giving it back to the bank, therefore the trustee doesn't try to go after the land.
Did that clear it up?? sorry if you thought I was talking to you. I understand your dillema.

And to get back to your original question about what to do to the land-- if you haven't started any consultations yet, go on and do so. Ask this question and see what they say. Looks to me that if you only get enough to cover the loan amount you..... well preferential payment just popped into my head this second, so I really don't know.

I do totally understand wanting to not shaft a small town bank. We felt the same way with our truck that went into bk. We have always been able to just walk into the bank with info on the car- how much they wanted, what it was worth- and the head guy would say ok. Heck, I even signed papers for my hubby one time because he couldn't get off work to go. We did business with this bank even when we lived 200 miles away. So we very much wanted them to get their money, and they did. Truck was worth what was owed on it so claim was paid in full, and the trustee even was kind enough to up the interest rate for them.

You can try to sell it all day long, it doesn't sound like you will make any money off it and if you do, then spend it on normal living expenses. I doubt you would want to keep it, but I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it, the only issue that may come up if it is classified as an unneccesary expense( this is only if you are wanting to keep it after the BK) but that would really only be an issue if it is that payment that puts you upside down. A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

Things like this is what gets people in trouble when they least expect it. It's a trick that probably does not always work as with any magic act or trick. I am sure there are many vacation condos that were not saved so there is fraud and risk involved. As always as to online forums, anyone reading this should do their homework with a competent lawyer offline before taking any suggestions.

Unrelated question, what are the differences (legal) in cousel/preparation/filing between a lawyer/paralegal/doc preparer. I understand the differences between a lawyer and a doc preparer, but I am completely unaware as to where a paralegal falls within this spectrum.

As a paralegal not working in the BK field, I can tell you that paralegals can prepare documents for you to sign and file with the court but they cannot represent you (i.e. Paralegal BK filing services). So if the information is wrong or an issue arises, you have no representation. Paralegals cannot give legal advice but assist attorneys in matters and cases where they prepare all sorts of documents and do research but the final say and approval is with the attorney. I have several paralegal friends in the BK field. I myself am not on here as a paralegal to drum up business for my law firm or document preparation service but because we went through filing Chapter 13. I sure wish I had my paralegal buddies in 2002 when we filed! The forum advice available at that time was terrible!

The main thing is that no one should go by any advice given on any forum for any subject. One needs to do their homework as to their own situation face to face with a qualified attorney. There is too much misinformation out there that may not apply to one's specific circumstances.

I tend not to respond to anything but the legal questions, and I have been posting quite a bit on here, so I feel compelled to explain where I am coming from just a bit. I have been in the BK industry since 1994 (not including my summers in college clerking for a law firm) I have worked for some of the largest banks in the country in their default servicing departments(BK, Foreclosure, REO) for a number of years but decided to leave the dark side and go back into the light. I currently work for a BK law firm that files a large volume of cases, as well as one of the attorneys is also a Chapter 7 BK Trustee, so I get to see both sides. In addition, I consult for BK law firms (on the side, cuz who needs sleep) by either auditing their soon to be filed or already filed BK's and how to clean them up. I host an annual BK CLE every year to teach aggressive actions on cram downs, strips off, as well as share up to date case law in the field of BK. This year I have 2 BK judges speaking and a rep from the UST. Here is where I stand philosophically; The latest changes to the BK law incredibly favored the creditor. I am in this industry because this one of the last laws to help the "little guy/girl" and it helps to be able to sleep at night, knowing I am helping someone get out of debt and not like the spawns of Hell that can represent credit card companies that charge 29.99% interest on a $10k limit credit card that was given to someone that makes $9 an hour. I will do anything within the legal limits and will absolutely push the limits of the law to have my clients keep everything and pay back nothing or at the minimum pay back as little as possible. I don't cheat, I don't lie, but I will use every trick I have to fight for my clients, that is what they pay me for. I lose sometimes, and it ticks me off, but I am ahead of the game...way ahead. I have been doing this for so long, it is a game to me, where I get to try to outsmart the Trustee's and the Judges. When I battle, the client knows that we may lose, but I am willing to try so there is no downside. The end result is, if I lose, I have to amend and give up whatever asset I was trying to exempt(that was not ordinarily exemptable). I have won and lost too many Harley Davidsons to count. And these clients don't try to keep the crap just because. It may be that once a year, the client and his friends take a 2 week road trip with their motorcycles and this trip keeps him sane the other 50 weeks. Hell yes I am going to fight the trustee to get him to keep it. This is why I get paid. If you want to lay down in front of the trustee go somewhere else, life is too short. Trustees and judges hate our law firm but we do get respect from them, and I am glad. We haven't advertised in 4 years, because all of the referrals.
In short, my answers are based on my attitude of screw the credit card companies, they have screwed you long enough. Keep everything pay back nothing! :)

We haven't advertised in 4 years, because all of the referrals.


I have admired your determination and efforts on here but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way. Most posters are more blunt about it and just include the link to their firm or service. In this economy, many people come to forums such as this hoping to lure folks into utilize their services because, heck, it is free advertising and free fishing. I can't knock you for that but along with your postings, you have been including some misinformation that could make people think you were an attorney and could help them and have also posted some misinformation that could confuse some posters.

You should put (and I think one of the moderators requested it several weeks ago from you) a disclaimer in your signature that you are not an attorney and what you are about. I admire your wanting to help considerably but let's not jest that it isn't to benefit you in some way. That is quite obvious. But I must say you are one heck of a business person and are an asset to whoever you work for.

Flamingo, what the heck are you talking about??? First off my name is BKParalegal, how much more obvious is that, in what my role is. And what kind of paranoid statement is:

"but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way"

I am not on here, hawking our law firm, and how dare you accuse me of posting on here for any other reason but to answer people's questions. Obviously, I am stealing your thunder since someone gave you the label of "Guru" when in fact your experience in BK is as a debtor and not someone in the industry.

It is narrow-minded people like you that stifle open discussions when they feel threaten that they may lose their power or stature. Do you feel more important trying to invalidate me and labeling me as someone trying to take advantage of people? Never in any of my posts nor all the PM's that I get(which are many) have I ever "referred" my firm. I assumed and still do that most people on here are Pro Se, and I was offering some insight.

In short, Paranoid-Flamingo, fly away! :)

Obviously, I am stealing your thunder since someone gave you the label of "Guru" when in fact your experience in BK is as a debtor and not someone in the industry.
I will be a guru too, in about 10 more posts. The label guru has to do with total number of posts, it is automatic, and has nothing to do with what you actually post, only how many posts you make.

I assumed and still do that most people on here are Pro Se, and I was offering some insight.


Well actually, I believe if you look at the statistics, no, the vast majority of us used a lawyer. Most of us filed in a hurry, without having time to think it through and study on what to do, and therefore needed legal advice. Dont you know what assuming gets you? :)

Arkie,

Well as it was asked of me by Flaming, an explanation should be put next to "Guru" and that you are only "Guru"'s of posting and not "Guru"'s of BK.

And who cares if I ass u me d that most were Pro Se, my point, if you caught it, was I was trying to assist those people who may need more information. Those are the people I am trying to help. So you are going to be a Guru too.... huh..... well... I don't know even know what to say about that.

Arkie,

Well as it was asked of me by Flaming, an explanation should be put next to "Guru" and that you are only "Guru"'s of posting and not "Guru"'s of BK.
Flamingo was telling you should put a disclaimer in your signature that people shouldn't take your posts as gospel, they should still seek the advice of an attourney in their area. I am sure some scared newbies would see the name bkparalegal and think well if they say it is so, then it must be

my point, if you caught it, was I was trying to assist those people who may need more information. Those are the people I am trying to help.

sure that is what we are here for, to give some advice when we can. Just don't think that what you know is the way it always is, all over the continent.

So you are going to be a Guru too.... huh..... well... I don't know even know what to say about that.

I am sure you will still survive, as will I. :dry: After all, I have made it through Hell and back with no lasting deficits.

Flamingo, what the heck are you talking about??? First off my name is BKParalegal, how much more obvious is that, in what my role is. And what kind of paranoid statement is:

"but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way"

I am not on here, hawking our law firm, and how dare you accuse me of posting on here for any other reason but to answer people's questions. Obviously, I am stealing your thunder since someone gave you the label of "Guru" when in fact your experience in BK is as a debtor and not someone in the industry.

It is narrow-minded people like you that stifle open discussions when they feel threaten that they may lose their power or stature. Do you feel more important trying to invalidate me and labeling me as someone trying to take advantage of people? Never in any of my posts nor all the PM's that I get(which are many) have I ever "referred" my firm. I assumed and still do that most people on here are Pro Se, and I was offering some insight.

In short, Paranoid-Flamingo, fly away! :)

LOL! You are not stealing my "thunder" in any way - I am on here for support and experience purposes and have seen over the years through many postings, as other long term posters also have. If you are as busy as you state and have all the time to come on here and help, by all means, all power to you. But as I stated, many come on here under the same guise hoping to drum up business by posting about what they do, where they work and how they can help.

I have no power or stature to lose and have helped many folks on here as many have helped me. A "Guru" on here is a long time poster who hits a certain number of postings and has turned out to be a dedicated, knowledgeable poster in many areas maybe just experience and support. Just because I don't file BK papers on a daily basis doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

I think your help is fabulous on here and even mentioned that in my posting but you should put a disclaimer in your signature as was suggested to you previously by a moderator. That protects you and others because there are some things you have posted that could confuse people (as I and others have also posted - we are all not always correct and just have to guess or assume at times).

Some folks like to storm on here and try to take control thinking they know it all or are the rescue angel for all. While that's all fine and dandy, don't bring up that you do it on a daily basis for a living because to me and also others on here that was a flag that you could have been trolling for business. Maybe you didn't see it that way but that is the way it came across to a few of us.

I am far from paranoid and narrow minded and, how long have you been on here?

Arkie,you are still in Arkansas, so when is the "and back" part going to kick in. (just kidding)

Flaming, how long I have been on here, has no bearing on my knowledge of the BK code. How many BK's have you been personally involved with?

As a paralegal not working in the BK field, I can tell you that paralegals can prepare documents for you to sign and file with the court but they cannot represent you (i.e. Paralegal BK filing services). So if the information is wrong or an issue arises, you have no representation. Paralegals cannot give legal advice but assist attorneys in matters and cases where they prepare all sorts of documents and do research but the final say and approval is with the attorney. I have several paralegal friends in the BK field. I myself am not on here as a paralegal to drum up business for my law firm or document preparation service but because we went through filing Chapter 13. I sure wish I had my paralegal buddies in 2002 when we filed! The forum advice available at that time was terrible!

The main thing is that no one should go by any advice given on any forum for any subject. One needs to do their homework as to their own situation face to face with a qualified attorney. There is too much misinformation out there that may not apply to one's specific circumstances.

SOunds similar to like a PA (physicians assistant) if I am not mistaken, and I am not saying this as an insult as PA is a very good job. PA's have medical knowledge and they see patients but technically they cant diagnose (its semantics really), they can make perriptions but cant use the actual word "prescribe", weird right. Its all abut not infringing on someone elses profession as I see it, people are always worried that if you start doing thier job with less education thier profession becomes in jeapordy, while others see it as a protection or the consumers. Funny thing is, you probably dont need 7 years of school (this is the length I think to be a lawyer right?) on the BK filing end, 7 years of on the job would have been better IMO. :D

Flaming, how long I have been on here, has no bearing on my knowledge of the BK code. How many BK's have you been personally involved with?

Just mine and how many of those have you personally been through yourself? A BK code cannot tell one how to put money in your pocket during a Chapter 13 to find a way to get new tires on your car or have your kid be able to go on the class trip.

Just mine and how many of those have you personally been through yourself? A BK code cannot tell one how to put money in your pocket during a Chapter 13 to find a way to get new tires on your car or have your kid be able to go on the class trip.

Every client we file, I feel personally attached since I have worked with them in detail and probably no more about them then their pastor. So, I would hazard a guess at around 1350 BK's give or take. Like just yesterday, I saved a very nice elderly couples Oil and Gas Bonus check ( that they didn't tell me they were getting 5 days after we filed them) from having to go to the Chapter 7 Trustee, by amending their Schedule A, and reducing the equity in their homestead, by having a Real estate broker do a rush CMA on their house and then by deducting the administrative costs of liquidiating the home(only using 6% closing costs, when I could of used 8% but I only needed $10k off their equity) I reduced their exemption enough to absorb a $9k royalty check that they get to keep free and clear, and now they can go visit their grandbabies. Sure the trustee may argue, but I have case law and six pack of whoop ass ready for him.

What did you do yesterday, Flaming?

SOunds similar to like a PA (physicians assistant) if I am not mistaken, and I am not saying this as an insult as PA is a very good job. PA's have medical knowledge and they see patients but technically they cant diagnose (its semantics really), they can make perriptions but cant use the actual word "prescribe", weird right. Its all abut not infringing on someone elses profession as I see it, people are always worried that if you start doing thier job with less education thier profession becomes in jeapordy, while others see it as a protection or the consumers. Funny thing is, you probably dont need 7 years of school (this is the length I think to be a lawyer right?) on the BK filing end, 7 years of on the job would have been better IMO. :D

Paralegals assist attorneys in research and other areas. While their legal assistants take care of administrative matters, paralegals can be a combination of both or a full blown paralegal who researches cases or prepares briefs, documents, etc. for the lawyer to review and use. Some people may not realize that paralegals, and in your instance, Medical or Physician Assistants, cannot give legal advice, diagnose or prescribe medication. For them to do so can land the entire firm/business or office in hot water and many carry insurance for that purpose. Experience in any profession is always the best teacher but the world has always relied on the paper degree as well all know.

Every client we file, I feel personally attached since I have worked with them in detail and probably no more about them then their pastor. So, I would hazard a guess at around 1350 BK's give or take. Like just yesterday, I saved a very nice elderly couples Oil and Gas Bonus check ( that they didn't tell me they were getting 5 days after we filed them) from having to go to the Chapter 7 Trustee, by amending their Schedule A, and reducing the equity in their homestead, by having a Real estate broker do a rush CMA on their house and then by deducting the administrative costs of liquidiating the home(only using 6% closing costs, when I could of used 8% but I only needed $10k off their equity) I reduced their exemption enough to absorb a $9k royalty check that they get to keep free and clear, and now they can go visit their grandbabies. Sure the trustee may argue, but I have case law and six pack of whoop ass ready for him.

What did you do yesterday, Flaming?

Was at home on a day off supervising the installation of a deck on our house and also spent quality time with my six year old granddaughter, which is priceless. I will be at the shore tomorrow with my family having a great time and not worrying about trying to be one up as to business items over someone else. Life is too short to let business and financial issues rule one's life. I'll be back at the office Tuesday dealing with corporate and budget matters. I don't have to post how I tried to save the world to get a point across. Hope you find the same peace someday...and I do admire your sense of humor by the way....

Flaming,

It was you who first questioned me by asking "... how long have you been on here?" So I usually don't stoop to childish retorts, but I never back down from jabs from threatened animals. So exactly where is your peace that I need to obtain. I am in an industry that I get to help battle for people who deserve to be helped, in the courts every single day, and by the grace of God I get paid extremely well for it, I have an incredible consulting career on the side, that allows me to pay for my kids that are in college as well as my "Diaphragm" middle schooler at home. I get hugs from my clients almost every week, and I get thank you emails or letters almost daily. I am blessed that I get to do what I do. There is no better feeling than when clients are crying for joy for something I did to help them ( as they are writing me a check ;) ) You want to talk about peace, I hope you obtain the peace that my clients feel after I have done everything I can for them.

And as an added bonus, when I go swim in the ocean, sharks don't attack me due to professional courtesy (funnier if I was an actual attorney,but you get the point)

Flaming,

It was you who first questioned me by asking "... how long have you been on here?" So I usually don't stoop to childish retorts, but I never back down from jabs from threatened animals. So exactly where is your peace that I need to obtain. I am in an industry that I get to help battle for people who deserve to be helped, in the courts every single day, and by the grace of God I get paid extremely well for it, I have an incredible consulting career on the side, that allows me to pay for my kids that are in college as well as my "Diaphragm" middle schooler at home. I get hugs from my clients almost every week, and I get thank you emails or letters almost daily. I am blessed that I get to do what I do. There is no better feeling than when clients are crying for joy for something I did to help them ( as they are writing me a check ;) ) You want to talk about peace, I hope you obtain the peace that my clients feel after I have done everything I can for them.

And as an added bonus, when I go swim in the ocean, sharks don't attack me due to professional courtesy (funnier if I was an actual attorney,but you get the point)


I'm sorry, and I really hope that I do not offend, but if you are a PARALEGAL, how are "your" clients writing you a check. As a paralegal aren't you working under a lawyer??
I ask because I was under the impresion that a paralegal assists the lawyers in research, document prep, etc. I am actually looking into Paralegal courses myself, as all this with our BK has truly interested me.

As a last note, I do have to say, that I find so many helpful people on this board! Although FLAMINGO may have been through only her BK. I find that she has a wealth of knowledge and has truly helped me out. :)

Semantics, they are writing the firm a check for the services.

I'm sorry, and I really hope that I do not offend, but if you are a PARALEGAL, how are "your" clients writing you a check. As a paralegal aren't you working under a lawyer??
I ask because I was under the impresion that a paralegal assists the lawyers in research, document prep, etc. I am actually looking into Paralegal courses myself, as all this with our BK has truly interested me.

As a last note, I do have to say, that I find so many helpful people on this board! Although FLAMINGO may have been through only her BK. I find that she has a wealth of knowledge and has truly helped me out. :)

'Needsomehelp' I agree with you but to add, I have found both parties have helped me very much and both are very talented. I appreciate this forum and I detest some "personality conflicts" as I once owned a forum of my own. I put it down as it was full time misery attempting to make it a "family" place and the infantile adults could not contain themselves in "flaming" other people. I appreciate the Moderators here attempting to keep this place on course as it was meant to be. 'Hub

'Needsomehelp' I agree with you but to add, I have found both parties have helped me very much and both are very talented. I appreciate this forum and I detest some "personality conflicts" as I once owned a forum of my own. I put it down as it was full time misery attempting to make it a "family" place and the infantile adults could not contain themselves in "flaming" other people. I appreciate the Moderators here attempting to keep this place on course as it was meant to be. 'Hub

As in every other forum no the internet, there are long time posters who see people come and go and there are always new folks coming in; some who know nothing, a little bit, a lot or think they know it all. Then are the people trolling for business/clients and there are the trolls themselves who go from forum to forum trying to wreak havoc under new IDs. The BK code is searchable easily by anyone on the internet. Experience is not. This forum has a weath of personal experience in people going through BK or have been through BK. State laws and other written laws are just a search away. Only in forums such as this can you find a posting that would help one in Chapter13 figure out how to save some money for a wedding or Christmas present or how to handle telling your child we can't afford the same pair of shoes as Joey has next door.

I think it would be helpful if all new posters should somehow be required to introduce themselves a bit so new people jumping in here don't get taken the wrong way with their eagerness to post and divulge their experience and what they can or cannot do. The way some people recently came in here it was quite obvious they were with firms or practices and it was difficult to get a grasp as to what was up. An introductory format would have prevented a lot of questions and issues. Posters in here looking for information need to know that they will not be scammed and not hit on by posters looking for business. When I first posted on a now defunct forum in late 2001 within 48 hours I had emails from several posters offering their legal services and had so many varying opinions as to my situation I was more confused than ever. Unfortunately, I listenedd to one poster's advice who had several of us under his/her spell in there claiming all his knowledge and wisdom in the BK and finance fields. Needless to say, I learned the hard way from that one and I guess I am utilizing my own experience with that to try to prevent it from happening to other people. There are many con and scam artists out there in every shape and form. And some of them are really good.

Flaming, I enjoy your thinly veiled response to me. And it sounds like you were deeply burned by someone, by erroneously listening to one persons advice without checking its validity. If I was "trolling" for business, wouldn't I list some link or some advertising in my personal contact. Thankfully, I am well beyond someone to mine the internet for business, and even though it doesn't warrant additional comment, I work only for attorney's and so how would I benefit from bringing clients in. Attorneys are barred from giving out any bonuses related to profits or production. Please do not convince yourself that you are the only one on here for altruistic purposes. I, as I am sure many people on here, are happy to help someone with no personal gain. If I have any motive, it is that so many people have the wrong idea about how they will lose everything in BK, so they destroy their 401ks, equity in their home,etc., staving off the inevitable just because they were misinformed about BK, and I would like to help stop that. Your sense of distrust of people is almost pathological, because you don't even know me but you assumed I have some Macchiavellian purpose. Does your church and family know about your Calvinistic views?

Flaming, I enjoy your thinly veiled response to me. And it sounds like you were deeply burned by someone, by erroneously listening to one persons advice without checking its validity. If I was "trolling" for business, wouldn't I list some link or some advertising in my personal contact. Thankfully, I am well beyond someone to mine the internet for business, and even though it doesn't warrant additional comment, I work only for attorney's and so how would I benefit from bringing clients in. Attorneys are barred from giving out any bonuses related to profits or production. Please do not convince yourself that you are the only one on here for altruistic purposes. I, as I am sure many people on here, are happy to help someone with no personal gain. If I have any motive, it is that so many people have the wrong idea about how they will lose everything in BK, so they destroy their 401ks, equity in their home,etc., staving off the inevitable just because they were misinformed about BK, and I would like to help stop that. Your sense of distrust of people is almost pathological, because you don't even know me but you assumed I have some Macchiavellian purpose. Does your church and family know about your Calvinistic views?

Unfortunately although you think otherwise, my response was directed at AngelinaCatHub's comments in his posting and my ideas to resolve issues that may arise in this forum - if you took it beyond that, that is not my problem. May I say that anyone can go back into your numerous postings and see all the references you make as to contacts you have that can help people, references to locations of your business, etc., etc. and it is you yourself that have brought all this upon yourself. It is how you are expressing yourself in that manner that could raise questions. I brought it to your attention because I thought it was quite obvious as did a few other folks on here woh contacted me asking me questions. As to your last few sentences, if you have the need to psychoanalyze anonymous internet posters in a bankruptcy forum, there are quite a few medical forums on the internet I am sure who can discuss your problems with you maybe privately.

Let's cut the crap and the playgound nonsense, show some class and act like the adults we are. You seem to be an intelligent person and I am by no means low on the IQ scale either so I am done with this if you are.

Let's cut the crap and the playgound nonsense, show some class and act like the adults we are. You seem to be an intelligent person and I am by no means low on the IQ scale either so I am done with this if you are.

You request a treaty just as you throw a parting insult in calling me classless, and so who is pulling the playground nonsense? You are no different then a child who is frustrated so you are taking your bat and ball and going home. I did not request this tete-a-tete, but it was you that questioned my integrity on this forum and yes I will defend it to the end. I am sorry that you have feelings of inadequacy and so resort to these offhand ripostes.

It is always in your nature to try to chase away people who threaten your standing? I weep for your mutliple ex-husbands(not a thinly veiled parting shot :) )

You request a treaty just as you throw a parting insult in calling me classless, and so who is pulling the playground nonsense? You are no different then a child who is frustrated so you are taking your bat and ball and going home. I did not request this tete-a-tete, but it was you that questioned my integrity on this forum and yes I will defend it to the end. I am sorry that you have feelings of inadequacy and so resort to these offhand ripostes.

It is always in your nature to try to chase away people who threaten your standing? I weep for your mutliple ex-husbands(not a thinly veiled parting shot :) )

I said "Let's" show some class (that is plural by the way)...I put my cards on the table to try to resolve this and you did defend your integrity on this forum and I provided the information to you that resulted in the questions being asked and the matter to me is resolved. I have no "standing" in this forum to defend - I am as anonymous as the next person on here and I have been on here two years in the various threads on here, not all BK related. No one knows who I am or who you are. And I don't really think anyone cares.

For the record, I have one ex-husband who is deceased so you can weep over his grave (do you normally weep for people you don't know?). I am in a long-term second marriage. It's a shame you have to result to parting shots as you do to get a retort....you are acting like trolls I have seen in the past on other forums...always looking for a way to defend themselves but still doing having to insult. Please again reread the last line again of my previous posting.

It's a shame this thread got diverted from the OP's original posting - my apologies to the OP.

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]...you are acting like trolls I have seen in the past on other forums...always looking for a way to defend themselves but still doing having to insult.FONT]

Your hipocrasy is without limits.

If you wonder why you aren't invited to many social functions, don't think it is because people hate your fondue.:dry:

Errrr, well, I didn't mean to say much, but, I feel there is a conflict here, and I sure don't want this to be a problem.

I feel both parties are very helpful. I wish no problem as I have seen this before and closed down my own forum over just what I have seen here lately. Only my opinion. 'Hub

I just wanted to see what the latest advice to Gymbo is about her land--thought I could learn something.......

BKParalegal..when I first started posting here I found a couple of long timers comments attacking on a personal level and it really caught me off guard as I was desperate for answers and distraught. It was sort of like the first couple of days at a new school..:beee: One even sent me PM's that were horrible! I, for one, have never considered the fact you were trolling for business, but I have not read all your posts either. But do keep in mind that because you represent yourself as a paralegal in the field that some may put a lot of faith in what you tell them instead of asking questions of their attys. I would just keep helping, if you are so inclined and ignore the posters who give their opinions that are not about the OP and are unwarranted.

Flamingo, I have nothing against you...you have helped me many times...and I'm sure you have your reasons for your posts....I am just posting about my experiences here......

Thanks berry, funny thing was/is, I have two full time jobs(this is not funny), I go to church, I play with my son, etc. and while I was doing research on a case, I came across this forum and I thought " how cool that there is this forum out there for people who need advice about BK" and since my second job is working from home and I use 2 large 26" screens, I can have a lot going on at one time. So I thought, (my name here), you have blessed in so many ways, why don't you take some time out of your busy life to give back and share some of your knowledge to people who are struggling in an area that you know quite a bit. And it felt really cool, especially since I work around experts in BK all day, we don't ever talk about the basics anymore. My faith calls for us to be servants to everyone and I know I never can or will do enough to serve others, so when I found this website, I thought what a great way to serve others. But as the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. I get questioned by Flaming about my intentions and integrity on this forum. To be frank, she has ruined the joy I was getting by serving and bringing some levity to what is normally a serious topic. Flaming is a reminder to me and to others that there are bitter, jealous people who will go out of their way to bring people down due to their own feelings of inadequacy and it saddens me. I guess this wasn't that funny after all.

Something is defenitely in the water over the past week or so :D. Did you guys/gals all quit smoking with me? that would explain alot. If you guys did quit smoking it was somewhere in the neighborhood of posts 13 to 15 of this thread.

Lets all just agree to disagree, and promise never to question eachothers motives anymore. I personally dont care why anyone is on here, paid legal help sells itself (kinda like crack right?, no marketing campaign needed).

You two are never gonna like each other, but take it out in a constructive way like outresearching one another and posting better (and contradictory) answers to each others statements (not personal), that sounds like fun right?

The thing about internet (message board) arguments is, no one is gonna come out and say they were wrong, or they mistakenly started it. Too much pride involved right? It is like a marriage counseling, its not about whos at fault, or who is wrong, its about why are we arguing (what are the underlying issues).

In the end I just have to ask, do I look fat in this dress?

Thanks berry, funny thing was/is, I have two full time jobs(this is not funny), I go to church, I play with my son, etc. and while I was doing research on a case, I came across this forum and I thought " how cool that there is this forum out there for people who need advice about BK" and since my second job is working from home and I use 2 large 26" screens, I can have a lot going on at one time. So I thought, (my name here), you have blessed in so many ways, why don't you take some time out of your busy life to give back and share some of your knowledge to people who are struggling in an area that you know quite a bit. And it felt really cool, especially since I work around experts in BK all day, we don't ever talk about the basics anymore. My faith calls for us to be servants to everyone and I know I never can or will do enough to serve others, so when I found this website, I thought what a great way to serve others. But as the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. I get questioned by Flaming about my intentions and integrity on this forum. To be frank, she has ruined the joy I was getting by serving and bringing some levity to what is normally a serious topic. Flaming is a reminder to me and to others that there are bitter, jealous people who will go out of their way to bring people down due to their own feelings of inadequacy and it saddens me. I guess this wasn't that funny after all.

I swore I wasn't going to respond to this but in a posting just this morning in another thread you wrote: "I tend not to respond to anything but the legal questions, and I have been posting quite a bit on here, so I feel compelled to explain where I am coming from just a bit." In the remainder of that full response nothing was mentioned about what you state in your posting directly above. No one is doubting your legal expertise or experience and I mentioned to you several times in postings how I admired your postings, experience and humor and also business sense. However, you have taken this to a level beyond what I thought had been resolved when you explained things on here about your situation. You continued to insult and now claim to be a victim with me as the person taking away all your joy in posting. I am far from bitter and I certainly am not jealous of you and I have no feelings of inadequacy as to you or anyone else and I have certainly never brought anyone down in this forum and hundreds can attest to that. I tried to resolve this reasonably and I am sorry you continue to have issues. But now bringing your religion and feelings of persecution into this is just beyond. I am not the only person on this forum who questioned things as to your postings - I just took it upon myself to ask. For that I apologize and I am sorry you took things the wrong way but it was just the way you were submitting your postings that had some of us confused. You are brand new here and no one knows you. That's all. In fact, your posting above would have been a marvelous blog or introduction to this forum as to you for all of us.

is it safe to come out now ?

Flaming,
I haven't seen this much backpedalling since Clinton was in office.

I love where you say " I am sorry you took things the wrong way but it was just the way you were submitting your posting..."

Please Flaming, enlighten us or just me on how I am to take your first comment to me

"but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way."

Should I take that comment as friendly way of asking me why I am being so helpful to others???

How long have you suffered from short term memory loss. Actually I think there is a movie based on your condition called Memento. Face it, you stepped over the line, I didn't back down from your snide comments and now you are sitting there with egg on your face. And if being a "Guru" on this forum was your cathartic outlet and you felt threatened by me, well I am truly sorry that you placed your self worth on the internet. You should look straight up for that. But please don't deny, your initial statement was anything but inflammatory, otherwise among everything else, you will be a liar as well.

is it safe to come out now ?

Evidently not

Well I like you both. I think your both smart and I appreciate both your opinions. I just thought maybe you'd appreciate knowing how much you're appreciated by this forum.

BkParalegal, you remind me of my attorney's paralegal and she is totally awesome, I think it's great you come on here and answer so many questions.

Flamingo, you always give good advice, I think you've been threw the BK process and I find your advice very helpful.

So girls and I am assuming your both girls, you're both awesome with your advice and all us appreciate it, so please don't leave. I'm getting a little worried about this forum so far this week it appears we've lost a few members, and I don't want either of you going anywhere. Ok I had to say that, before someone gets mad and leaves.

Well I like you both. I think your both smart and I appreciate both your opinions. I just thought maybe you'd appreciate knowing how much you're appreciated by this forum.

BkParalegal, you remind me of my attorney's paralegal and she is totally awesome, I think it's great you come on here and answer so many questions.

Flamingo, you always give good advice, I think you've been threw the BK process and I find your advice very helpful.

So girls and I am assuming your both girls, you're both awesome with your advice and all us appreciate it, so please don't leave. I'm getting a little worried about this forum so far this week it appears we've lost a few members, and I don't want either of you going anywhere. Ok I had to say that, before someone gets mad and leaves.
Thank you...well said....now go duct somewhere!!!!!!

Let's not run off another valuable contributor.

What do you do if you own land in a family farm? Would that be treated the same?

What do you do if you own land in a family farm? Would that be treated the same?

The same as what? Hmmmm, I’ve lost the direction of the question. I’ll try to help. If you are saying you have an undivided equal interest in the family farm, I would think you own some asset, however I don’t think the Court can make you and the other members sell it. Who is homesteading on it? If you, then for sure you have a homestead exemption. It is possible that they assess a value perhaps then you pay the Trustee that value. We have to purchase our own property back as we are an asset case, but they are very good and have made fair payment plans. Hope this helps a little. ‘Hub

I own all the land outright, in my name, with the exception of 63 acres in my wifes name jointly.It is up for sale now. Apx 2400 acres all together. Can I be made to sell it to pay off my debts? Thank you.

There are some specific provisions in the BK code related to farms (in fact, chapter 12 BK is specifically for farmers).

You may want to explore that section in depth to see if that provision would be better for you.

Are you actively farming it?* If so, you might want to consider a Ch 12.* Ch 12s, from what I've read, is for farms.
Are you and your wife filing jointly, or just you?

Are you living on it? If so, you may be ble to exempt part of it for homestead.

Here
If were you I would repost this in it's own thread. Your question may not get the attention it should get way back here in this thread

Gymbo, in a C7 we were spacificaly asked if our homestead is in the City or Country. You are allowed as homestead small amount in the City and I believe up to 160 acres outside of City limits. Do you have a greenbelt exemption and are you producing ANYTHING? This is important as with 2400 acres, you have a huge asset. I'm pretty sure you would have to liquidate up to your bk owed. I doubt with that asset you could even go C7.

I read on this forum of a couple who adjoined two lots and that was questioned however in their case the second lot was unsellable due to low land and/or access. 'Hub

TEW, I think you right. This tread is way off it's original course. 'Hub

Flaming,
I haven't seen this much backpedalling since Clinton was in office.

I love where you say " I am sorry you took things the wrong way but it was just the way you were submitting your posting..."

Please Flaming, enlighten us or just me on how I am to take your first comment to me

"but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way."

Should I take that comment as friendly way of asking me why I am being so helpful to others???

How long have you suffered from short term memory loss. Actually I think there is a movie based on your condition called Memento. Face it, you stepped over the line, I didn't back down from your snide comments and now you are sitting there with egg on your face. And if being a "Guru" on this forum was your cathartic outlet and you felt threatened by me, well I am truly sorry that you placed your self worth on the internet. You should look straight up for that. But please don't deny, your initial statement was anything but inflammatory, otherwise among everything else, you will be a liar as well.

After rereading your last several postings, I believe anger management courses or professional help in some way could benefit you. I refuse to pursue this further. Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

BKParalegal and Flamingo - ok, that's enough. Any more you two have to say to each other, do it by PM.

If we mods see any additional personally directed posts anywhere in the forum that hijack threads away from the original posters will earn the poster (or posters) a seat on the sidelines for a week (that means no posting with read-only privileges).

Control of this thread is now returned back to our members who are trying to help the original poster.