Senate to Middle Class: Drop Dead ...a message from Michael Moore

Senate to Middle Class: Drop Dead ...a message from Michael Moore
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=243

Friends,

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers withdraw their many lawsuits against state governments in their attempts to not comply with our environmental laws.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.

Yes, they could have given the loan for any of these reasons because, in the end, to lose our manufacturing infrastructure and throw 3 million people out of work would be a catastrophe.

But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America.

We have a little more than a month to go of this madness. As I sit here in Michigan today, tens of thousands of hard working, honest, decent Americans do not believe they can make it to January 20th. The malaise here is astounding. Why must they suffer because of the mistakes of every CEO from Roger Smith to Rick Wagoner? Make management and the boards of directors and the shareholders pay for this.

Of course that is heresy to the 31 Republicans who decided to blame the poor, miserable autoworkers for this mess. And our wonderful media complied with their spin on the morning news shows: "UAW Refuses to Give Concessions Killing Auto Bailout Bill." In fact the UAW has given concession after concession, reduced their benefits, agreed to get rid of the Jobs Bank and agreed to make it harder for their retirees to live from week to week. Yes! That's what we need to do! It's the Jobs Bank and the old people who have led the nation to economic ruin!

But even doing all that wasn't enough to satisfy the bastard Republicans. These Senate vampires wanted blood. Blue collar blood. You see, they weren't opposed to the bailout because they believed in the free market or capitalism. No, they were opposed to the bailout because they're opposed to workers making a decent wage. In their rage, they were driven to destroy the backbone of this country, not because the UAW hadn't given back enough, but because the UAW hadn't given up.

It appears that the sitting President has been looking for a way to end his reign by one magnanimous act, just like a warlord on his feast day. He will put his finger in the dyke, and the fragile mess of an auto industry will eke through the next few months.

That will give the Senate enough time to demand that the bankers and investment sharks who've already swiped nearly half of the $700 billion gift a chance to make the offer of cutting their pay.

Fat chance.

Yours,
Michael Moore

No, they were opposed to the bailout because they're opposed to workers making a decent wage.

Exactly what is happening. You should be making less than what people made in 1975. That is what 'fair' trade has accomplished.

The warlord has screwed the globe over for 8 years. Screwing over 3 more million people is a wink of his eye.

Da rich choke da hell of da poor! :D

Michael Moore is such a joke!
Global warming lol . Dont know what the weather is like else where but could use some of that!
I'm a truck driver and there will be no electric semis in mine or my childrens lifetime. Besides poor michael moores so much for the poor guy but how does he figure the poor people are gonna buy all those electric cars, are you kidding me LMAO! I bet him and the bigger farse Al "Global Warming" Gore are not driving an electric car anywhere anytime soon! What a pair of jokes! These ever tightening Global warming farse regulations are whats got the automakers over a barrel right now....that and the unions!
Please just consider the source of this story lol1
With that being said they should not have given wallstreet the bailout that they did I do agree on that!

Michael Moore is such a joke!
Global warming lol . Dont know what the weather is like else where but could use some of that!
I'm a truck driver and there will be no electric semis in mine or my childrens lifetime. Besides poor michael moores so much for the poor guy but how does he figure the poor people are gonna buy all those electric cars, are you kidding me LMAO! I bet him and the bigger farse Al "Global Warming" Gore are not driving an electric car anywhere anytime soon! What a pair of jokes! These ever tightening Global warming farse regulations are whats got the automakers over a barrel right now....that and the unions!
Please just consider the source of this story lol1
With that being said they should not have given wallstreet the bailout that they did I do agree on that!

He can definately get off his rocker but he is on track with this one.

Most people that I know have accepted the fact the humans are destroying the earth and if global warming does turn out to be true, which both science & weather seem to agree on, it wont be a joke.

I just went round & round with the unions and you can try to blame it all on the union people, it remains the wealthy are bailed out time & time again, while the middle class are being pushed out.

Senate to Middle Class: Drop Dead ...a message from Michael Moore
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=243



It seems that MM has not even read the draft/proposal...

Friends,

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.


>>>>(a) IN GENERAL.—Each eligible automobile manufacturer which receives financial assistance under this Act shall conduct an analysis of potential uses of any excess production capacity (especially those of former sport utility vehicle producers) to make vehicles for sale to public transit agencies, including—
(1) the current and projected demand for bus and rail cars by American public transit agencies;
(2) the potential growth for both sales and supplies to such agencies in the short, medium, and long term;
(3) a description of existing ‘‘Buy America’’ provisions, and data provided by the Federal Transit Administration regarding the use or request of waivers from such provisions; and
(4) any recommendations as to whether such
actions would result in a business line that makes
sense for the automobile manufacturer.<<<<



They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers withdraw their many lawsuits against state governments in their attempts to not comply with our environmental laws.

>>>>(g) WITHDRAWAL FROM CERTAIN ACTIONS.—The
terms of any financial assistance under this Act shall prohibit the eligible automobile manufacturer from partici
pating in, pursuing, funding, or supporting in any way,
any legal challenge (existing or contemplated) to State
laws concerning greenhouse gas emission standards.<<<


They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.

>>>So, does MM know of any "teams" available? Does he have the faintest clue how long it would be to change management in such a way? The selection process?? Previous employment?? Understanding of automaker production and management efficency??<<<<



Yes, they could have given the loan for any of these reasons because, in the end, to lose our manufacturing infrastructure and throw 3 million people out of work would be a catastrophe.

But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America.

We have a little more than a month to go of this madness. As I sit here in Michigan today, tens of thousands of hard working, honest, decent Americans do not believe they can make it to January 20th. The malaise here is astounding. Why must they suffer because of the mistakes of every CEO from Roger Smith to Rick Wagoner? Make management and the boards of directors and the shareholders pay for this.

(C) a prohibition on such automobile man
ufacturer making any golden parachute payment to a senior executive officer during the period that the loan is outstanding;

(D) a prohibition on such automobile manufacturer paying or accruing any bonus or incentive compensation during the period that the loan is outstanding to the 25 most highly compensated employees; and

(E) a prohibition on any compensation plan that would encourage manipulation of such automobile manufacturer’s reported earnings to enhance the compensation of any of its employees.

(Aside Why should the shareholders be also included in suffering. Sure, many of the shares were sold to execs as "options" but they are minor compared to those who bought the stock (By themselves and in investment groups)

BTW There's about (Rough estimate from news article about a investor trying to buy 9% of GM) 566,000,000 shares floating around that GM alone has out.
[/QUOTE]


Of course that is heresy to the 31 Republicans who decided to blame the poor, miserable autoworkers for this mess. And our wonderful media complied with their spin on the morning news shows: "UAW Refuses to Give Concessions Killing Auto Bailout Bill." In fact the UAW has given concession after concession, reduced their benefits, agreed to get rid of the Jobs Bank and agreed to make it harder for their retirees to live from week to week. Yes! That's what we need to do! It's the Jobs Bank and the old people who have led the nation to economic ruin!

(B) INTERESTED PARTIES.—For purposes
of this section, the term ‘‘interested party’’ shall be construed broadly so as to include all persons who have a financial or other recognizable interest in a particular automobile manufacturer, including—
(i) employees and retirees of the eligible automobile manufacturer;
(ii) trade unions;
(iii) creditors;
(iv) suppliers;
(v) automobile dealers; and
(vi) shareholders.


But even doing all that wasn't enough to satisfy the bastard Republicans. These Senate vampires wanted blood. Blue collar blood. You see, they weren't opposed to the bailout because they believed in the free market or capitalism. No, they were opposed to the bailout because they're opposed to workers making a decent wage. In their rage, they were driven to destroy the backbone of this country, not because the UAW hadn't given back enough, but because the UAW hadn't given up.

It appears that the sitting President has been looking for a way to end his reign by one magnanimous act, just like a warlord on his feast day. He will put his finger in the dyke, and the fragile mess of an auto industry will eke through the next few months.

That will give the Senate enough time to demand that the bankers and investment sharks who've already swiped nearly half of the $700 billion gift a chance to make the offer of cutting their pay.

Fat chance.

Yours,
Michael Moore

Frankly, the main line I'm getting (Not slapping MM anymore as I've basically done enough on him) is that this will NOT STOP THE COLLAPSE. They want 14 billion now, does ANYONE think for one moment, things will change in 90 days, let alone 1 YEAR??

This will be a domestic Iraq. But without the bullets and such, there still will be casulties on all sides. Yes, blood too.

All I'll say is that I used to respect Michael Moore because I thought his story was good.

Now, I feel sorry for him. He's lost my respect. As just posted, most of his claims, this time are "unsubstantiated" by the facts.

The article actually started pretty good, until he started laying all the blame at the feet of the Republicans.

I'm tired.

Listen dont believe Michael Moore, he doesn't have a clue about most things such as that movie he made where he compared our health care system to Cuba's where in the report he got our health care rating from we were ranked better than Cuba.....

The Senate didn't go for this because the vast majority of Americans didn't want it. Those who voted for it were beholden to the UAW due to campaign contributions or owned stock in the Big Three (Like Senator Dole of NC....though of course she didn't win reelection.....).

In truth 14 billion wouldn't save the Big Three. 50 Billion wouldn't save them

The only thing that can save them is a chapter 11 restructuring because they need to be able to renegotiate their labor contracts and debt. Without that any money you throw at them is wasted. They have to large a debt burden. They have steadily sold fewer cars over the last 20 years. Their projections to congress in fact not only ignored the trend of the last 20 years but posted an overly optimistic projection that they can never obtain.

If they were to file Chapter 11s, I do believe a gov't sponsored DIP loan would be appropriate.

Listen dont believe Michael Moore, he doesn't have a clue about most things such as that movie he made where he compared our health care system to Cuba's where in the report he got our health care rating from we were ranked better than Cuba.....

The Senate didn't go for this because the vast majority of Americans didn't want it. Those who voted for it were beholden to the UAW due to campaign contributions or owned stock in the Big Three (Like Senator Dole of NC....though of course she didn't win reelection.....).

In truth 14 billion wouldn't save the Big Three. 50 Billion wouldn't save them

The only thing that can save them is a chapter 11 restructuring because they need to be able to renegotiate their labor contracts and debt. Without that any money you throw at them is wasted. They have to large a debt burden. They have steadily sold fewer cars over the last 20 years. Their projections to congress in fact not only ignored the trend of the last 20 years but posted an overly optimistic projection that they can never obtain.

If they were to file Chapter 11s, I do believe a gov't sponsored DIP loan would be appropriate.


That is is true, but he is right about this. Big government does not want the working class americans making any money & if it means getting rid of american products, they will do it & then bring it later back to pay cheap labor.

Good to see you again, JRScott.

Rest assured, once government does their dirty deed of finally disolving GM, which I feel they have wanted for three decades with their fingers all over it, thus you get more cheap labor (that wont stimulate the economy) for the wealthy foreigners to hire americans for nothing. Then unemployment is going to an all time high. You just might be lucky if you get a less than minimum wage job after all those millions who are connected to GM are brought down with it.

Depression is going to suck the working class high & dry:cry:
We are on the reverse cycle & completion of unfair trade & now americans will lose to get a taste of what cheap laborers overseas go thru with no power to demand a fair working wage.
Oh yah! we are headed down the right path, uncle sam.

You dont need reagan, sbush or moore to see all of that, you just have to be honest.

Rest assured, once government does their dirty deed of finally disolving GM, which I feel they have wanted for three decades with their fingers all over it, thus you get more cheap labor (that wont stimulate the economy) for the wealthy foreigners to hire americans for nothing. Then unemployment is going to an all time high. You just might be lucky if you get a less than minimum wage job after all those millions who are connected to GM are brought down with it.

Depression is going to suck the working class high & dry:cry:
We are on the reverse cycle & completion of unfair trade & now americans will lose to get a taste of what cheap laborers overseas go thru with no power to demand a fair working wage.
Oh yah! we are headed down the right path, uncle sam.

You dont need reagan, sbush or moore to see all of that, you just have to be honest.



Sounds like we USA will become a future working/slavery island for the foreigners' new colony/economy .... just on a grand scale!?

Sounds like we USA will become a future working/slavery island for the foreigners' new colony/economy .... just on a grand scale!?


You got it. That is what Rome has always been about.

Sounds like we USA will become a future working/slavery island for the foreigners' new colony/economy .... just on a grand scale!?

Do you know just who is buying foreclosed properties en masse down here in South Florida? Foreigners. Not the illegal alien type, but those who reside abroad in their home country and are gleefully picking up what our working class (and some of our upper class too!) can no longer afford.

This is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind. :dry:

Do you know just who is buying foreclosed properties en masse down here in South Florida? Foreigners. Not the illegal alien type, but those who reside abroad in their home country and are gleefully picking up what our working class (and some of our upper class too!) can no longer afford.

This is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind. :dry:

This reminds me of the time (About 4-7 years ago). A bunch (Read 1,000 people) were given notice to vacate the houses they were renting in CA from the owner of the homes.

They could buy them if they so wished, but if not, then move. The reason? The owner (Japanese) had received an offer to sell which he described as "Once in a lifetime opportunity"

I was wondering if they were to be re-rented, why not let those who were in them, keep renting? Made little sense why to shove them out...

Rest assured, once government does their dirty deed of finally disolving GM, which I feel they have wanted for three decades with their fingers all over it, thus you get more cheap labor (that wont stimulate the economy) for the wealthy foreigners to hire americans for nothing. Then unemployment is going to an all time high. You just might be lucky if you get a less than minimum wage job after all those millions who are connected to GM are brought down with it.

Depression is going to suck the working class high & dry:cry:
We are on the reverse cycle & completion of unfair trade & now americans will lose to get a taste of what cheap laborers overseas go thru with no power to demand a fair working wage.
Oh yah! we are headed down the right path, uncle sam.

You dont need reagan, sbush or moore to see all of that, you just have to be honest.

While the unions do serve a purpose sometimes, the UAW has overreached. IF they are really interested in saving the jobs longterm they should have agreed to the Corker plan and made pay and benefit concessions in 2009. Without them they will not be viable. To me its better to know you'll have a job for the next ten years at even say 1/2 x instead of having no job in 6 months at x pay.

Because if we bail them out without the necessary concessions that's where we'll be in 6 months or less, they'll need more money or they'll have to file then. Under their current business model with realistic sales projections following the trends of the last 30 years they can never dig themselves out without major restructuring.

Bandit what is with the trumpeting for the "poor picked on UAW" ?
What they would hire what you call cheap labor is a very good chance more than I make and most people make working 60 hours a week every week!
I would be one of the 1st in line to jump on an assembly line at a major auto manufacturer at what you call cheap labor and be dang glad to get it!
Just like the airline industry there are some skilled positions such as pilot mechanic that require extra education and above average intelligence that should be paid for there skills, but you cant tell me some cashier handing out boarding passes or Joe bob laborer throwing luggage on a conveyor belt or washing planes needs to make that kind of money...can you honestly?
I beleive the unions started out as being for the worker and a good idea but now it's turned into just like government a bunch of whiney fat cats picking the workers pockets while looking them straight in the eye and daring them to resist!

Bandit what is with the trumpeting for the "poor picked on UAW" ?
What they would hire what you call cheap labor is a very good chance more than I make and most people make working 60 hours a week every week!
I would be one of the 1st in line to jump on an assembly line at a major auto manufacturer at what you call cheap labor and be dang glad to get it!
Just like the airline industry there are some skilled positions such as pilot mechanic that require extra education and above average intelligence that should be paid for there skills, but you cant tell me some cashier handing out boarding passes or Joe bob laborer throwing luggage on a conveyor belt or washing planes needs to make that kind of money...can you honestly?
I beleive the unions started out as being for the worker and a good idea but now it's turned into just like government a bunch of whiney fat cats picking the workers pockets while looking them straight in the eye and daring them to resist!

I never suggested that everyone should make the same mount of money no matter what they do.

You have two choices then. You can jump on an assembly line for a union and make a decent living with some insurance & possibly retirement, or you can jump on an assembly line doing the same work with no union, make minimum wage or maybe a little above that with fear & threats of being disposable.

You still have both options today.

While the unions do serve a purpose sometimes, the UAW has overreached. IF they are really interested in saving the jobs longterm they should have agreed to the Corker plan and made pay and benefit concessions in 2009. Without them they will not be viable. To me its better to know you'll have a job for the next ten years at even say 1/2 x instead of having no job in 6 months at x pay.

Because if we bail them out without the necessary concessions that's where we'll be in 6 months or less, they'll need more money or they'll have to file then. Under their current business model with realistic sales projections following the trends of the last 30 years they can never dig themselves out without major restructuring.

Not all unions are the same.

Then start explaining all the jobs that go under with no union.

then explain why the already richest people in the world who have failed get bailed out but blue collar UAW who is failing do not.

...then explain why the already richest people in the world who have failed get bailed out but blue collar UAW who is failing do not.

I hope not to set off a bomb here, but I'm gonna chime in anyways.

(I don't speak for anybody specific, any specific group of people, or any groups of people currently involved in the bailouts)

The "rich" invest their money, start businesses, create jobs, and spur the economy.

The "blue collar" workers work, buy groceries, and get by.

Our economy as a whole needs both groups of people, BUT...BUT...

There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming.

And now we have the blue collar folks who see all the gadgets galore, big houses, nice cars, etc and think: I need that too. That need requires higher wages and more credit. All of a sudden, the blue collar workers are encroaching onto wealthy territory and the wealthy need MORE to have the status of being "wealthy". It's created a vicious cycle that has plunged our economy into a war between classes where the rich have to be richer to be rich, the middle class goes into debt to keep up with the rich, and the poor just gets screwed.

In short, bailing out blue collar workers gives them more money to spend on "stuff" (stuff being homes, cars, and any other consumables)

Bailing out the wealthy can POTENTIALLY give those people money to create new jobs and businesses...

I doubt that will happen though

And it's Bush's fault (Not really, but I had to throw that in there for the liberals :) )

I hope not to set off a bomb here, but I'm gonna chime in anyways.

(I don't speak for anybody specific, any specific group of people, or any groups of people currently involved in the bailouts)

The "rich" invest their money, start businesses, create jobs, and spur the economy.

The "blue collar" workers work, buy groceries, and get by.

Our economy as a whole needs both groups of people, BUT...BUT...

There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming.

And now we have the blue collar folks who see all the gadgets galore, big houses, nice cars, etc and think: I need that too. That need requires higher wages and more credit. All of a sudden, the blue collar workers are encroaching onto wealthy territory and the wealthy need MORE to have the status of being "wealthy". It's created a vicious cycle that has plunged our economy into a war between classes where the rich have to be richer to be rich, the middle class goes into debt to keep up with the rich, and the poor just gets screwed.

In short, bailing out blue collar workers gives them more money to spend on "stuff" (stuff being homes, cars, and any other consumables)

Bailing out the wealthy can POTENTIALLY give those people money to create new jobs and businesses...

I doubt that will happen though

And it's Bush's fault (Not really, but I had to throw that in there for the liberals :) )


simply consuming?

it is a two way street. if it were not for the working class making the wealthy their money, they would be doing the work themselves.
your example there is exactly what is failing this country. reaganomics does not work past jumpstarting the economy when you destroy the middle class.

Big government has made it so the little guy cant even own a cow today.

The only thing that is Bushes fault is his last 8 years of presidency seeing that every policy & decison he has made, has failed.

simply consuming?

it is a two way street. if it were not for the working class making the wealthy their money, they would be doing the work themselves.
your example there is exactly what is failing this country. reaganomics does not work past jumpstarting the economy when you destroy the middle class.

Big government has made it so the little guy cant even own a cow today.

The only thing that is Bushes fault is his last 8 years of presidency seeing that every policy & decison he has made, has failed.

I didn't say the blue collar folks were simply consuming I said:

"There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming."

And incase I need to further clarify: There are a bunch of rich folks that aren't doing anything for the economy besides buying shit. They aren't investing or creating anything, they are content just being consumer *****s.

I REALIZE that somebody has to make all this stuff that people buy. I'm happy those people do what they do. I think they all deserve a big fat congressional medal of "Thanks for making stuff for me to buy". It boils down to very simple economics:

Some guy makes stuff

Some guys bosses the guy that makes stuff

Some guy sells the stuff that the guy made

Some guy bosses the guy selling the stuff

Some guy buys the stuff

It only stands to reason that everybody on that list isn't making the same amount of money. If the guy making the stuff isn't happy with his rate of pay, he needs to work his way up the chain. If he doesn't have the skills to do that, he needs to go out and get the skills. If he doesn't want to go out and get the skills, he needs to reevaluate how much pay is "enough", not piss and moan because his boss makes more money than he does.

I didn't say the blue collar folks were simply consuming I said:

"There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming."

And incase I need to further clarify: There are a bunch of rich folks that aren't doing anything for the economy besides buying shit. They aren't investing or creating anything, they are content just being consumer *****s.

I REALIZE that somebody has to make all this stuff that people buy. I'm happy those people do what they do. I think they all deserve a big fat congressional medal of "Thanks for making stuff for me to buy". It boils down to very simple economics:

Some guy makes stuff

Some guys bosses the guy that makes stuff

Some guy sells the stuff that the guy made

Some guy bosses the guy selling the stuff

Some guy buys the stuff

It only stands to reason that everybody on that list isn't making the same amount of money. If the guy making the stuff isn't happy with his rate of pay, he needs to work his way up the chain. If he doesn't have the skills to do that, he needs to go out and get the skills. If he doesn't want to go out and get the skills, he needs to reevaluate how much pay is "enough", not piss and moan because his boss makes more money than he does.

I understand all that.

Economics only works until politics get involved. Then it does not matter what your education is or how hard you work up the chain or even how much one would piss & moan. Some people are fed up with working because they can do better by going on welfare & food stamps, then get their own cash in different ways by working without politics.

I don't really care any way what happens because my job is pretty secure considering what I do is what people turn to during hard times. I am always amazed at the kind of business my cousin has turned that makes money for our family in both good & hard times.

Michael Moore is such a joke!
Global warming lol . Dont know what the weather is like else where but could use some of that!
I'm a truck driver and there will be no electric semis in mine or my childrens lifetime. Besides poor michael moores so much for the poor guy but how does he figure the poor people are gonna buy all those electric cars, are you kidding me LMAO! I bet him and the bigger farse Al "Global Warming" Gore are not driving an electric car anywhere anytime soon! What a pair of jokes! These ever tightening Global warming farse regulations are whats got the automakers over a barrel right now....that and the unions!
Please just consider the source of this story lol1
With that being said they should not have given wallstreet the bailout that they did I do agree on that!

Michael Moore probably thinks we can print up monopoly money and hand it out.

All I'll say is that I used to respect Michael Moore because I thought his story was good.

Now, I feel sorry for him. He's lost my respect. As just posted, most of his claims, this time are "unsubstantiated" by the facts.

The article actually started pretty good, until he started laying all the blame at the feet of the Republicans.

I'm tired.

He sounds like a certain poster in this forum who basically makes stuff up as he goes along. Rather than looking at the facts.

Rest assured, once government does their dirty deed of finally disolving GM, which I feel they have wanted for three decades with their fingers all over it, thus you get more cheap labor (that wont stimulate the economy) for the wealthy foreigners to hire americans for nothing. Then unemployment is going to an all time high. You just might be lucky if you get a less than minimum wage job after all those millions who are connected to GM are brought down with it.
.

The government cannot force people to buy GM's cars. So you can blame them all you want but the problems lies within the companies themselves. Toyota and Honda not only build better cars, have better fuel economy, are safer but also tend to be on par of cheaper than the big three auto. So the choice for the consumer is easy.

Do you know just who is buying foreclosed properties en masse down here in South Florida? Foreigners. Not the illegal alien type, but those who reside abroad in their home country and are gleefully picking up what our working class (and some of our upper class too!) can no longer afford.

This is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind. :dry:

They know how to manage their money better than us. Good on them I say. Maybe this will teach us a lesson on how to work, save and invest our money. As these people overseas obviously do. They have a completely different culture with regards to spending, saving, recycling, reusing, minimizing waste, utilizing land overseas.

I never suggested that everyone should make the same mount of money no matter what they do.

You have two choices then. You can jump on an assembly line for a union and make a decent living with some insurance & possibly retirement, or you can jump on an assembly line doing the same work with no union, make minimum wage or maybe a little above that with fear & threats of being disposable.

You still have both options today.

And the free market has decided, we prefer the latter like Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. Most other people in this country that do not work under a union have to actually work for their money. What that means is that if we slack off we get fired. If we work well we get a raise and even promoted. If there is a demand for our product or work they hire more people. If demand falls as with this current economy, they have to let people go. They usually let the worst performing go first. I know, I know alien concepts for many union workers. Whereas unions like the UAW prefer that they dictate who comes and who goes. Who gets hired and who does not, regardless of skill or their actual performance.

This is not 1930 and most management teams know that you get what you pay for. If they hired everyone on a minimum wage they would only get a certain type of worker and quality of worker. So that theory of yours that they are going to exploit everyone goes out the window quite fast.

As stated earlier by others, the union is generally about paying everyone the same regardless of the work performed, the quality of the work or their skill level. Much like communists, unions believe that the broom pusher should be paid as well as the engineer who designs the car. Such silly concepts, communism, have failed in most countries and lead to third world conditions there. Without an engineer blue collar workers have no car to build.

It only stands to reason that everybody on that list isn't making the same amount of money. If the guy making the stuff isn't happy with his rate of pay, he needs to work his way up the chain. If he doesn't have the skills to do that, he needs to go out and get the skills. If he doesn't want to go out and get the skills, he needs to reevaluate how much pay is "enough", not piss and moan because his boss makes more money than he does.

Two excellent posts. I particularly liked the above points.

Most other people have realized that excluding the sale of narcotics, which sounds like what another poster is suggesting, you need to re-skill, get an education or work for yourself. America is an entrepreneurial country and a great example of this is Henry Fords first car. It is wrong for anyone to believe they should have a job for life and then blame it on the rich because the industry and world has changed.

We are a service based economy. Our Manufacturing sector is moving towards high-end products which require someone to be re-skilled and retrained. We are no longer interested in smelting the steel or aluminum.

And the free market has decided, we prefer the latter like Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. Most other people in this country that do not work under a union have to actually work for their money. What that means is that if we slack off we get fired. If we work well we get a raise and even promoted. If there is a demand for our product or work they hire more people. If demand falls as with this current economy, they have to let people go. They usually let the worst performing go first. I know, I know alien concepts for many union workers. Whereas unions like the UAW prefer that they dictate who comes and who goes. Who gets hired and who does not, regardless of skill or their actual performance.

This is not 1930 and most management teams know that you get what you pay for. If they hired everyone on a minimum wage they would only get a certain type of worker and quality of worker. So that theory of yours that they are going to exploit everyone goes out the window quite fast.

As stated earlier by others, the union is generally about paying everyone the same regardless of the work performed, the quality of the work or their skill level. Much like communists, unions believe that the broom pusher should be paid as well as the engineer who designs the car. Such silly concepts, communism, have failed in most countries and lead to third world conditions there. Without an engineer blue collar workers have no car to build.

I never said the broom pusher would make the same as the designer, so do not put words into my mouth.

Freemarket did not decide that. The politicians & eltists decided it when they sold their country to foreigners.
Even if you pay them twice or the minimum, They still cannot make ends meet, pay for insurance & raise a family today.

Just look at what is overseas & the USA is doing the same thing & is headed for the same lame duck third world conditions. The signs are everywhere.

They know how to manage their money better than us. Good on them I say. Maybe this will teach us a lesson on how to work, save and invest our money. As these people overseas obviously do. They have a completely different culture with regards to spending, saving, recycling, reusing, minimizing waste, utilizing land overseas.

at 50 cents a week in china & mexico the working class has savings?

they do not clean up their mess overseas.

how are they teaching us a lesson again?

Two excellent posts. I particularly liked the above points.

Most other people have realized that excluding the sale of narcotics, which sounds like what another poster is suggesting, you need to re-skill, get an education or work for yourself. America is an entrepreneurial country and a great example of this is Henry Fords first car. It is wrong for anyone to believe they should have a job for life and then blame it on the rich because the industry and world has changed.



if you are refering to me about the sale of narcotics, please point out where I said that.

Heny Ford did not have government breathing down his back the way it is today. They did not even have an IRS tax system.

I never said the broom pusher would make the same as the designer, so do not put words into my mouth.

Freemarket did not decide that. The politicians & eltists decided it when they sold their country to foreigners.
Even if you pay them twice or the minimum, They still cannot make ends meet, pay for insurance & raise a family today.

Just look at what is overseas & the USA is doing the same thing & is headed for the same lame duck third world conditions. The signs are everywhere.

The free market did decide. Five of the top ten vehicles sold in 2008 are produced by Asian manufacturers which are built right here in America. This number is rising yearly. Therefore these companies must be doing something right.

What many with a pro-union mentality fail to grasp is that everyone is free to re-skill, further their education or start their own business. In one sense yes you are right. There is no future working for companies like the big three auto. So what this means is that it is up to each individual and not the collective union to travel down one of the three paths. The real issue is that certain people do not want to change. They 'wanna do what they done' for 20 or 30 years. Unfortunately this is no longer an option.

If the minimum wage, healthcare, trade agreements and retirement is the issue, people need to speak up to their local congress representatives. These sort of issue can only be sorted out at that level.

at 50 cents a week in china & mexico the working class has savings?

they do not clean up their mess overseas.

how are they teaching us a lesson again?

Rehashing a comment by another poster, people from overseas are buying up property where they live. Therefore these people are probably good with their money and are clearly not making 50 cents a week as you state. To the contrary many of these people come from countries which have progressed with the times and moved into highly skilled fields, for example the Japanese.

The free market did decide. Five of the top ten vehicles sold in 2008 are produced by Asian manufacturers which are built right here in America. This number is rising yearly. Therefore these companies must be doing something right.

What many with a pro-union mentality fail to grasp is that everyone is free to re-skill, further their education or start their own business. In one sense yes you are right. There is no future working for companies like the big three auto. So what this means is that it is up to each individual and not the collective union to travel down one of the three paths. The real issue is that certain people do not want to change. They 'wanna do what they done' for 20 or 30 years. Unfortunately this is no longer an option.

If the minimum wage, healthcare, trade agreements and retirement is the issue, people need to speak up to their local congress representatives. These sort of issue can only be sorted out at that level.

I do not care either way about the union or no union. You are the one who wants to destroy it & all I do is tell you, you are wrong for blaming all the problems on unions.

So what you mean is, talk the local congressman, who is as crooked as they get, so they can do nothing. Nothing of the sort will ever be sorted out at that level when min wage can stay 3.35 for 8 years while inflation soars, there is a problem with the system. That system is broken.

& since there is no future for the big 3 & because of the way the auto industry is so tied to gether, you had better believe these other auto companies will also suffer big time when they go down.

The freemarket did not decide. It was the elitists & politiicans who decided the direction well over 30 years ago.

Rehashing a comment by another poster, people from overseas are buying up property where they live. Therefore these people are probably good with their money and are clearly not making 50 cents a week as you state. To the contrary many of these people come from countries which have progressed with the times and moved into highly skilled fields, for example the Japanese.

Why dont you tell about the working conditions. If it is so great then why do people think going to the uSA is the best place to work.

you never tell the whole truth about what is going on overseas.

The elitists from overseas are also buying up the USA land because the USA is broke.

if you are refering to me about the sale of narcotics, please point out where I said that.

Heny Ford did not have government breathing down his back the way it is today. They did not even have an IRS tax system.

There are lots of entrepreneurs throughout this country. They are just not located in the rust belts anymore.

In relation to another thread where we discussed the Midwest pro-union culture, I based that on experience with ex union workers from there who tend to want to argue doing something rather than actually doing what they are told by a superior. This gives me a good idea of their background and what they were allowed to pull off under a union. They have all since been fired as that sort of attitude does not work well over here.

There are lots of entrepreneurs throughout this country. They are just not located in the rust belts anymore.

In relation to another thread where we discussed the Midwest pro-union culture, I based that on experience with ex union workers from there who tend to want to argue doing something rather than actually doing what they are told by a superior. This gives me a good idea of their background and what they were allowed to pull off under a union. They have all since been fired as that sort of attitude does not work well over here.

you are just as guilty of doing that. that is why you butt heads with them.

I do not care either way about the union or no union. You are the one who wants to destroy it & all I do is tell you, you are wrong for blaming all the problems on unions.

So what you mean is, talk the local congressman, who is as crooked as they get, so they can do nothing. Nothing of the sort will ever be sorted out at that level when min wage can stay 3.35 for 8 years while inflation soars, there is a problem with the system. That system is broken.

& since there is no future for the big 3 & because of the way the auto industry is so tied to gether, you had better believe these other auto companies will also suffer big time when they go down.

The freemarket did not decide. It was the elitists & politiicans who decided the direction well over 30 years ago.

Crooked? It's you guys who vote them in up there and not me. I base my vote on the candidate's performance rather than cheap promises or party lines.

The foreign manufacturers will not go down as people continue to buy more and more of their cars. It is all about brand name and reputation. GM's for example is in the gutter.

How did the elitist and politicians decide the direction?

you are just as guilty of doing that. that is why you butt heads with them.

I don't backtalk or question my superior. Certainly not when they specifically ask me to do something, regardless of what I think of it. Whereas I have seen it happen with a supervisor and fired the employee myself, on the spot. Where was he from, Ohio. The company pays our employees well $14.50 an hour minimum and and they are generally quite happy. Win / Win for all of us. While it isn't the best job, we are more than happy to help them train and move up. Or even move into another field or career if they are determined to do so. Have not had one OH&S incident on site.

Crooked? It's you guys who vote them in up there and not me. I base my vote on the candidate's performance rather than cheap promises or party lines.

The foreign manufacturers will not go down as people continue to buy more and more of their cars. It is all about brand name and reputation. GM's for example is in the gutter.



I have not voted for a republican or democrat for 12 years and I never will again. so it aint me putting them in there.

How did the elitist and politicians decide the direction

When they sold out to cheap labor down south and overseas 30 years ago.

The foreign manufacturing WILL go down. It has already started.

I don't backtalk or question my superior. Certainly not when they specifically ask me to do something, regardless of what I think of it. Whereas I have seen it happen with a supervisor and fired the employee myself, on the spot. Where was he from, Ohio. The company pays our employees well $14.50 an hour minimum and and they are generally quite happy. Win / Win for all of us. While it isn't the best job, we are more than happy to help them train and move up. Or even move into another field or career if they are determined to do so. Have not had one OH&S incident on site.


People cannot raise a family on 14 bucks an hour, pay all the bills and insurance. Ohio is a very cheap place to live, I know this but it is still not enough to buy a house & make ends meet when you have more than one mouth to feed.

Why dont you try making it on that, then you will know.

When they sold out to cheap labor down south and overseas 30 years ago.

The foreign manufacturing WILL go down. It has already started.

It's called the free market. This is not communist Russia where the government can tell you where, when and what to buy. In the past unions have been able to blackmail and extort companies into staying in highly unionized states, at the expense of the company's future. Most companies operating in such condition have closed down. The south on the other hand gives companies the freedom to manufacture in the US again.

Foreign manufacturing is going down where?

I don't backtalk or question my superior. Certainly not when they specifically ask me to do something, regardless of what I think of it.

They must be paying you well.

I question everything. Then again, I would not sell out to the politics & dog eat dog lies in todays markets & work places.

It's called the free market. This is not communist Russia where the government can tell you where, when and what to buy. In the past unions have been able to blackmail and extort companies into staying in highly unionized states, at the expense of the company's future. Most companies operating in such condition have closed down. The south on the other hand gives companies the freedom to manufacture in the US again.

Foreign manufacturing is going down where?

it is starting in China.

We are so headed toward communism it aint even funny. It is going to have smack you on the head then you will know.

the people down south do not make that much money. I know this for a fact & they are worked like dogs in factories.

It's called the free market.


There are problems with the free market & free trade. Just because it has the word free in the title does not mean free as in liberty & freedom.

Rehashing a comment by another poster, people from overseas are buying up property where they live. Therefore these people are probably good with their money and are clearly not making 50 cents a week as you state. To the contrary many of these people come from countries which have progressed with the times and moved into highly skilled fields, for example the Japanese.

Actually I didn't mean that the foreigners who are buying up our distressed real estate market live here. They live in their own countries and are scooping up our foreclosures en masses, as an investment.

Most countries make it very difficult for foreigners to buy property there unless they are citizens or legal residents. The USA couldn't care less who it sells to, or who ends up owning us.

People cannot raise a family on 14 bucks an hour, pay all the bills and insurance. Ohio is a very cheap place to live, I know this but it is still not enough to buy a house & make ends meet when you have more than one mouth to feed.

Why dont you try making it on that, then you will know.

Now this is where we butt heads. $14.50 per hour minimum for operating a machine is low pay? Okay lets assume I agree with you.

Who forced them to take this job? Who forced them to skip college or trade school? Did we force them to work for us rather than attempt to start their own business? How many classes or course has that person taken to improve their skills? to improve their circumstances. All I here is what can you give me.

Personally, I have to work smarter, show I am good at something, show that I am constantly delivering value to get a raise. I undergo quarterly reviews. I don't just go to the boss with my work colleges and demand he pay me more otherwise I will strike.

The elitists from overseas are also buying up the USA land because the USA is broke.

Bingo. And the scariest part is that no one seems to give a damn.

Actually I didn't mean that the foreigners who are buying up our distressed real estate market live here. They live in their own countries and are scooping up our foreclosures en masses, as an investment.

Most countries make it very difficult for foreigners to buy property there unless they are citizens or legal residents. The USA couldn't care less who it sells to, or who ends up owning us.

It is a sad day, but it is true. We dont have much of a 'country' ethic any more. iT is so clear that global politicans & elitists are controlling everything today & they can do it right from their own country.
That is why I wonder if they let the housing industry get out of control on purpose taking advantage of all those liar loans & let it crash on purpose to disolve the middle class, exactly why they wont bail out the middle class forcing them to take cheap labor & lose what they have.

Bingo. And the scariest part is that no one seems to give a damn.

It is wierd aint it? Like everyone is either sleeping or has been seriously decieved. Maybe both.

it is starting in China.

We are so headed toward communism it aint even funny. It is going to have smack you on the head then you will know.

the people down south do not make that much money. I know this for a fact & they are worked like dogs in factories.

So where are they going to manufacture goods then? lol

You are right. They make a realistic wage for a days work. People working in other fields in the south are making great money in states like Texas, Georgia, Virginia and North Carolina. The houses in our area are still averaging $380,000.

Bingo. And the scariest part is that no one seems to give a damn.

Anyone with a semester in economics would understand why this is extremely important for America.

They must be paying you well.

I question everything. Then again, I would not sell out to the politics & dog eat dog lies in todays markets & work places.

Sell out? Question?

A person on a production line is paid to do a job and not to give their opinion. When I ask an employee to do a task I expect them to do it. I am not interested in what they think about it. All of the ex-union guys we hired from Ohio just wanted to argue rather than do the work. One guy was there for 5 weeks and demanded a pay rise. Said he needed the money. Bla bla bla. Ironically he had the lowest output. Even lower than the new guys. Once again, this clearly shows me what ex-union people like him are used to up there. He was fired the following week.

Now this is where we butt heads. $14.50 per hour minimum for operating a machine is low pay? Okay lets assume I agree with you.

Who forced them to take this job? Who forced them to skip college or trade school? Did we force them to work for us rather than attempt to start their own business? How many classes or course has that person taken to improve their skills? to improve their circumstances. All I here is what can you give me.

Personally, I have to work smarter, show I am good at something, show that I am constantly delivering value to get a raise. I undergo quarterly reviews. I don't just go to the boss with my work colleges and demand he pay me more otherwise I will strike.


You are doing the backstroke now.

You do not need a college education to do most of these jobs including the ones that you say you need a college degree. That is not the point, The point is you want everyone to sweat their ass off & get nowhere doing it. Then you say they were not forced to do it. They take it because that is all there is. Not because they cant do better.

and Where would you be without them???

I was making more than 14.50 an hour over 20 years ago with mega benefits. All these improved jobs you keep talking about are also falling to the curb. Do you not even know what is happening in the US at all?

I know so many people who have lost their jobs in this economy making 60 to 100,000 a year and they cant even get high school jobs right now because they are over qualified.

Sell out? Question?

A person on a production line is paid to do a job and not to give their opinion. When I ask en employee to do a task I expect them to do it. I am not interested in what they think about it. All of the ex-union guys we hired from Ohio just wanted to argue rather than do the work. One guy was there for 5 weeks and demanded a pay rise. Said he needed the money. Bla bla bla. Ironically he had the lowest output. Even lower than the new guys. Once again, this clearly shows me what ex-union people like him are used to up there. He was fired the following week.


Exactly. Communism sweat shops. Work your ass off but dont say a word or ever complain or you will get the whip on your back.

He may not have been due a raise, that does not mean he cant ask. He is better off being fired. That way he can hopefully find something better & get the pay he needs to survive.

Anyone with a semester in economics would understand why this is extremely important for America.


i took more than a semester and economics is not what is happening right now. Politics & complete control over the people is what is happening choking this nation to death while trying to silence the working class.

You are doing the backstroke now.

You do not need a college education to do most of these jobs including the ones that you say you need a college degree. That is not the point, The point is you want everyone to sweat their ass off & get nowhere doing it. Then you say they were not forced to do it. They take it because that is all there is. Not because they cant do better.

and Where would you be without them???

I was making more than 14.50 an hour over 20 years ago with mega benefits. All these improved jobs you keep talking about are also falling to the curb. Do you not even know what is happening in the US at all?

I know so many people who have lost their jobs in this economy making 60 to 100,000 a year and they cant even get high school jobs right now because they are over qualified.

That is their choice. Why should everyone else be punished if I decided to slack off at high school and end up doing manual labor? Just like saying we should pay a checkout clerk $20 an hour because they need to make a living.

The $14.50 20 years ago goes back to the reason why Detroit is now bankrupt.

With regards to your third point, you clearly have a problem with change unless it benefits yourself. 20 years ago when the consumer was being ripped off having to pay more for a product because of these ridiculously high salaries, I am sure you did not complain. Now that the consumer has the power to choose, you are angry. Once again it comes down to their choice.

i took more than a semester and economics is not what is happening right now. Politics & complete control over the people is what is happening choking this nation to death while trying to silence the working class.

Or is it that some people were previously used to kicking back and getting paid for doing nothing and are now angry that they cannot do this any longer.

That is their choice. Why should everyone else be punished if I decided to slack off at high school and end up doing manual labor? Just like saying we should pay a checkout clerk $20 an hour because they need to make a living.

The $14.50 20 years ago goes back to the reason why Detroit is now bankrupt.

With regards to your third point, you clearly have a problem with change unless it benefits yourself. As you said, 20 years ago when the consumer was being ripped off having to pay more for a product because of these ridiculously high salaries, I am sure you did not complain. Now that the consumer has the power to choose, you are angry. Once again it comes down to their choice.

I just dont get why you exalt yourself so high above everyone else.

I was making that much in florida, not detroit.
It has nothing to do with change. You run sweat shops & people will always rebel when you do that.

So do you like change when it does not benefit you??? Of course not so you are no different.

It has nothing to do with people slacking off at high school. It has to do with there being no other jobs because that is the direction government chose to take this. So no, we dont have all these choices you keep saying we have.

You do not have to worry about paying cahsiers. those jobs are also being phased out & you can bet many many more computer sit down & bankers hours jobs will also be phased out. Leaving nothing more than sweat shops.

Or is it that some people were previously used to kicking back and getting paid for doing nothing and are now angry that they cannot do this any longer.


You mean like the elitists & politicians who do nothing but serve themselves.

I just dont get why you exalt yourself so high above everyone else.

I was making that much in florida, not detroit.
It has nothing to do with change. You run sweat shops & people will always rebel when you do that.

So do you like change when it does not benefit you??? Of course not so you are no different.

It has nothing to do with people slacking off at high school. It has to do with there being no other jobs because that is the direction government chose to take this. So no, we dont have all these choices you keep saying we have.

You do not have to worry about paying cahsiers. those jobs are also being phased out & you can bet many many more computer sit down & bankers hours jobs will also be phased out. Leaving nothing more than sweat shops.

Well why don't you start a company and pay people whatever wage you like? This way you can also ensure you make the rules rather than some elitist. Yet I am sure like every union out there, you would rather tell others how to run theirs and call anyone successful who is not your cousin (lol) Mr Potters.

I am used to change, I grew up with it. If my company fails I look for work elsewhere. If they pay me poorly I look for work elsewhere. If my state is dying I move rather than pretend it's like that everywhere else and the governments fault.

Well why don't you start a company and pay people whatever wage you like? I am sure like every union out there, you would rather tell others how to run theirs and call people Mr Potters.

ok. i know you hate hate hate unions. oyu hate em so much they could just all die.

I dont care how you run yours, but rest assured when you take advantage of people and they are going to revolt.

Classic Union Philosophy: Always blame someone else, always.

ok. i know you hate hate hate unions. oyu hate em so much they could just all die.

I dont care how you run yours, but rest assured when you take advantage of people and they are going to revolt.

Nah, we are just happy to have a job. I am still waiting on why you or your unions do not start a company yourselves and pay the workers minimum $50 an hour or whatever else you like.

Revolt all you like, we'll just move all of the plants overseas. This is not the 30's pal. Thanks to technology you have no leverage.

I am used to change, I grew up with it. If my company fails I look for work elsewhere. If they pay me poorly I look for work elsewhere. If my state is dying I move rather than pretend it's like that everywhere else and the governments fault.

what is happening right now IS governments fault & they know it & they also dont seem to have any answer for it.

not everyone has to do what you do & not everyone is going to be blinded by crooked governments on this planet. i dont know your state but if it is in the south they aren't making that great of wages. those are low wage states. is that why you are so upset that other states that pay more?

you dont like it when someone pays you poorly but it is ok for you to pay them poorly. why do you have so many double standards?

what is happening right now IS governments fault & they know it & they also dont seem to have any answer for it.

not everyone has to do what you do & not everyone is going to be blinded by crooked governments on this planet. i dont know your state but if it is in the south they aren't making that great of wages. those are low wage states. is that why you are so upset that other states that pay more?

you dont like it when someone pays you poorly but it is ok for you to pay them poorly. why do you have so many double standards?

Since you studied multiple semesters in economics, what would you propose they change or do?

Nah, we are just happy to have a job. I am still waiting on why you or your unions do not operate a company (yourselves) and pay the workers minimum $50 an hour or whatever else you like.

Revolt all you like, we'll just move all of the plants overseas. This is not the 30's pal. Thanks to technology you have no leverage anymore.


I DONT CARE ABOUT UNIONS. that is your issue that bothers you.

We know they will move all the plants overseas & to the south and pay them communism sweat shop wages. we have already been through that phase.

technology means no leverage -Then do expect it to backfire on your leverage as well.

Since you studied multiple semesters in economics, what would you propose they change or do?

The elitists & politicians need leave the working middle class alone & stop trying to kill them all off with unfair trade and unfair competition.

I DONT CARE ABOUT UNIONS. that is your issue that bothers you.

We know they will move all the plants overseas & to the south and pay them communism sweat shop wages. we have already been through that phase.

technology means no leverage -Then do expect it to backfire on your leverage as well.

For someone who is fluent in economics you do not seem to understand supply and demand well. Ultimately the consumer decides what they would like to pay and refuses to pay for exuberant non-performance based union stipulated salaries. Which is why Walmart is so successful.

The elitists & politicians need leave the working middle class alone & stop trying to kill them all off with unfair trade and unfair competition.

So what do you propose the government does to rectify this?

Mr Customer, as you like labels, is deciding to buy something an realizes they can get the foreign made good for half the price. Which do you think they will choose?

If a Plasma TV was made in the Midwest based on the types of the salaries you suggest, it would cost someone $6,000. Whereas the same TV from China costs $2,000. Which would you choose?

Once again, you assume that everyone is being paid poorly. In reality you contradict yourself because if you read up on some of your bud Cali's posts, you will notice there are lots of people out there earning $300K+. Including the athletes you watch on TV where some are earning up to $20 million. I am sure you don't have a problem with someone running on a field for a few hours earning that but want to burn an executive at the stake who employs thousands of people yet earns a few hundred thousand.

For someone who is fluent in economics you do not seem to understand supply and demand well. Ultimately the consumer decides what they would like to pay and refuses to pay for exuberant non-performance based union stipulated salaries. Which is why Walmart is so successful.

Because Walmart pays their employees cheap labor selling cheap china products by cheap laborers & the wealthy keep all the cream for themselves as that may be the only place to shop one day when you want junk.

I understand economics very well. What you don't get is when politics is factored into econimics, the supply & demand text book goes out the window.

You want the new definition for supply & demand in the oil market?
Cheney & Bush are OUT!

Anyone with a semester in economics would understand why this is extremely important for America.

Umm... My degrees are in Business. I am 60 years old and I have never had a unionized job, for whatever it's worth. Not that it really matters, but you seem to have a totally closed mind and hatred against unions, period. Perhaps you are one of those who advocated the unregulated capitalism that has led us to the mess we're currently in.

It is NOT okay for other countries to buy us up. You may be thinking of the immediate, but superficial, relief to our economy. But failure to see the long-term effect of losing our country to foreigners (more than we have already!) is total greed born out of sheer ignorance.

Have a very Merry Christmas. Or Hannukah. Or whatever it is you believe in.
:tongue:

Because Walmart pays their employees cheap labor selling cheap china products by cheap laborers & the wealthy keep all the cream for themselves as that may be the only place to shop one day when you want junk.

I understand economics very well. What you don't get is when politics is factored into econimics, the supply & demand text book goes out the window.

You still fail to grasp that the average middle class consumer does not care where a product is made. Yes, that very same consumer you say elitist and the government are apparently screwing over. Most of Walmarts customers are middle class and the poor. I am sure Walmarts are a huge part of the Midwest. Maybe the unions can start up their own retail store. Crap, that goes back to having to work and take some responsibility for one's self rather than complain and use extortion to get your way.

You want the new definition for supply & demand in the oil market?
Cheney & Bush are OUT!

What does that even mean?

So what do you propose the government does to rectify this?

Mr Customer, as you like labels, is deciding to buy something an realizes they can get the foreign made good for half the price. Which do you think they will choose?

If a Plasma TV was made in the Midwest based on the types of the salaries you suggest, it would cost someone $6,000. Whereas the same TV from China costs $2,000. Which would you choose?

Once again, you assume that everyone is being paid poorly. In reality you contradict yourself because if you read up on some of your bud Cali's posts, you will notice there are lots of people out there earning $300K+. Including the athletes you watch on TV where some are earning up to $20 million. I am sure you don't have a problem with someone running on a field for a few hours earning that but want to burn an executive at the stake who employs thousands of people yet earns a few hundred thousand.

I would buy a TV from japan but not china. so what.

you are right back to making cheapo products for cheapo labor.
why do you only want to make cheap products with cheap labor?

Athletes dont have those jobs for very long before they are replaced & then most of them die off & a few go down as heroes. nothing wrong with that because they risk injuries & entertain a lot of people. they should be paid well.

but, Those people are going to feel it too because people wont be going down to buy their tickets with that cheap communist sweat shop labor you pay.

When you pay the consumer cheap labor, you can bet they wont be buying the cheap stuff they make just to keep up with those wealthy who run the junky made products.

You still fail to grasp that the average middle class consumer does not care where a product is made. Yes, that very same consumer you say elitist and the government are apparently screwing over. Most of Walmarts customers are middle class and the poor. I am sure Walmarts are a huge part of the Midwest. Maybe the unions can start up their own retail store. Crap, that goes back to having to work and take some responsibility for one's self rather than complain and use extortion to get your way.





That is because they do not know what is really happening yet. When everyone figures out why they dont have those great jobs any more, they will then be very angry for not caring & buying cheap products with cheap communist wages. I hate walmart because the people who go there always look like they are mezzzzzzmerized by cheap shiny plastic.

That does not mean that people who go there are not good people.

What does that even mean?

I was sure you would ask that.

You two are just going around in circles and are going to have to agree to disagree. :D

I am still waiting to hear your proposal on how they should fix it.

Obviously you don't agree with personal responsibility. Or someone being trained with new skills in a new field, going back to school to acquire an education or starting a business.

You two are just going around in circles and are going to have to agree to disagree. :D

I don't believe we can agree enough to disagree :)

I am still waiting to hear your proposal on how they should fix it.



I already told you. Government needs to GET OUT...they have too much power over the citizens & they do not lead. They are politiicans not leaders.

You two are just going around in circles and are going to have to agree to disagree. :D

yeppers.

at least it was a little cheap labor entertainment. talk is cheap, what can I say:)

:D
do I sound like one of those nutty politicians yet?

I have to get ready to leave for my two week trip this weekend anyway & I definately am not taking this with me.

I don't have any hard feelings. We just have totally different philosophies on the workplace, employers and who is responsible for our individual future.

I don't have any hard feelings. We just have totally different philosophies on the workplace, employers and who is responsible for our individual future.

what you are doing is what we have been doing for the last 30 years and it has failed this country miserably. Trickle down economics does not work & it has nothing to do with unions. I dont know why that is so hard to understand. Reagan was a good president for his day & what was happening at that time, but his theory only works to jump start it...it will not sustain itself & they are going to realize when you push the middle class out, everyone will lose. iT is common sense & history proves what I am saying is true. This is why Rome failed & why China & the Arab world sucks so bad.

You cannot supress people that way & expect a nation to thrive.

All I can think is, you think because the low wage states are all making low wages in factories that will straighten things out, but it isn't. I Know so many people in the south would rather work for low wages than high wages and I never understood that while the turnover rate is enormous. My stepfather is from Alabama & he does not get it either.

The immediate future is screwed up beyond recognition. If you really look at government & be honest, no one knows what they are doing for this country outside of their own personal agendas & they are being thrown out of office left & right. NOne of them have the answers. I have never seen the USA in such chaos & anguish from coast to coast in my life, but it is like you think everything is humming along just fine & dandy with no problems except for unions. Unions are the problem for everything in your mind.

I dont get how anyone can say $14 an hour is good enough to feed & raise a family in 2009.

You have this self/individual thing going on & I am more of a group person & what is best for everyone, not just for myself. That goes for business too because I know that screwing people over is going to come back to me.

It isn't an argument any more. I just dont get it.

Not all unions are the same.

Then start explaining all the jobs that go under with no union.

then explain why the already richest people in the world who have failed get bailed out but blue collar UAW who is failing do not.

The Steel Workers unions and the Airline Unions were largely responsible for the bankruptcies of those industries.

The primary problem with all business that fail is the same.

They have a higher output than input.

That is they spend more than they make, this always leads to bankruptcy.

The problem is our society in general for the last 30 years has tried to emphasize greed. Easy credit led folks to be overleveraged, not only on the personal level but many businesses and the government. If we cannot learn quickly that we must live a lower standard of living that we can afford, then nothing we do will stop the collapse coming.

You'll note that I was very much against bailing out wall street as well, it rewarded bad behavior which only of course leads to more bad behavior. I am hopeful that congress will not authorize the release of the last 350 billion. Indeed I'd like to see each of the companies that have received money from it having to give a full accounting and plan as they've asked the car companies for.

..... I Know so many people in the south would rather work for low wages than high wages and I never understood that while the turnover rate is enormous. My stepfather is from Alabama & he does not get it either..

This reminds me of the book (By Studs Terkel "Working" Not a good read but interesting) in where he does talk to management and workers in a Ford Plant.

In the worker group, you have some who disparage management for some "Percieved abuses" which basically comes down to "Work faster and harder" and the workers see it as "Work harder and faster because I want a bigger bonus"

And of course, there are "Attempted abuses" which can be stopped by the union.

In talking to management, there was one manager who spoke about trying to bring some of the workers up into management. He quote was telling in that in encouraging the workers to shoot for higher positions they'd rather say "Naw, I'm just one of the guys" type of attitude..In short "No thanks, I don't need more hassles in my life"

And in a slightly different talk (One worker who did come up) who mentioned he'd have been happy to be sort of the "Rotating Guy" Who gave bathroom breaks and such to the workers when needed. When they approached him about "Management" he took to it like a duck to water.

Like I did say in another post, there's some who are willing to try, just that a bit of encouragement and drive are needed. well, he got it and was moving up.

.....
The immediate future is screwed up beyond recognition. If you really look at government & be honest, no one knows what they are doing for this country outside of their own personal agendas & they are being thrown out of office left & right. NOne of them have the answers. I have never seen the USA in such chaos & anguish from coast to coast in my life, but it is like you think everything is humming along just fine & dandy with no problems except for unions. Unions are the problem for everything in your mind...

Some years ago, Oregon did a experiement about Congress. They had each person repping their state and they actually made everything work and came out with a multi-billion surplus. At the company I worked at then, a manager had us sitting there discussing how this could be, when in DC, it wasn't working.

I said "It's because none of them had a seat to protect. How would it look to the people who voted you in? How can you defend your actions, when it costs someone a job, or benefits or whatever they had before and now they have to take less?"

Our system WOULD and COULD work very decently if all worked for THE COMMON GOOD. But that ain't going on right now. I don't remember the state, but the the congressman who had the state, got the CIA, FBI and a couple more government agencies moved to his state.

Oh man, did he win re-election big...

.....
I dont get how anyone can say $14 an hour is good enough to feed & raise a family in 2009. .

I don't, but then again, I've seen a working couple feed, raise and pay rent on combined pay at elss then $400 a week...Yep, they did without (And yes, this is midwest) and I am still single (making the same) and I asked them "Why do this, when you could change jobs and make more" Simple answer "We like our jobs"

Had one guy complaining (At woodworking plant) about making $9 an hour, supporting wife and 2 kids. He said "I'd rather cook (Short order cook experience) in a resturant and be happy with my job" I then said "Well, you MADE a choice of getting married, having kids and thus moving to a bigger home and thus incurring more bills. Did you honestly think you could make it on $7 an hour living as you do now?"

He gave me a dirty look and walked away....Yeah, the truth does hurt...

.....
You have this self/individual thing going on & I am more of a group person & what is best for everyone, not just for myself. That goes for business too because I know that screwing people over is going to come back to me. .

And that's why unions are needed in some jobs as they stop abuses that can occur. But in so many, there's nobody who'll stand up and demand the company stop abusing the workers as they are quickly fired for standing up.

And don't forget, those at the top, want to stay there and also have their perks. Not against having them, but I believe that the people below, should get some cream also..But that doesn't happen and thus, the division between workers and management grows each day..[/QUOTE]

.....
It isn't an argument any more. I just dont get it.

I some cases, neither do I...Very puzzling this worker/managemnt concept..Then again, these humans are so strange also :D

The Steel Workers unions and the Airline Unions were largely responsible for the bankruptcies of those industries.

The primary problem with all business that fail is the same.

They have a higher output than input.

That is they spend more than they make, this always leads to bankruptcy.

The problem is our society in general for the last 30 years has tried to emphasize greed. Easy credit led folks to be overleveraged, not only on the personal level but many businesses and the government. If we cannot learn quickly that we must live a lower standard of living that we can afford, then nothing we do will stop the collapse coming.

You'll note that I was very much against bailing out wall street as well, it rewarded bad behavior which only of course leads to more bad behavior. I am hopeful that congress will not authorize the release of the last 350 billion. Indeed I'd like to see each of the companies that have received money from it having to give a full accounting and plan as they've asked the car companies for.

Well, we are in agreement except for two things.
a) Take away the pay & seniority from pilots, engineers & the staff on airlines & there are going to be way more problems than just bankruptcy. Start working those people like dogs & see what happens. It is better if they go out of business than to remove the things a union provides in such industries.

b) I dont believe all these companies are going out of business because of the workers being paid too much, as that being the area of overspending where there is no union to blame. What I see is business owners taking advantage of the poor & working class paying very little because they dont care about their help, keeping all the profits for themselves & then they dump the business or make it fold when it gets old & profit declines. It isn't because they overspend. These companies have robbed the poor and made zillions by slave labor here & in these other countries.

Too many corrupt Boss Hoggs.

I don't, but then again, I've seen a working couple feed, raise and pay rent on combined pay at elss then $400 a week...Yep, they did without (And yes, this is midwest) and I am still single (making the same) and I asked them "Why do this, when you could change jobs and make more" Simple answer "We like our jobs"

Had one guy complaining (At woodworking plant) about making $9 an hour, supporting wife and 2 kids. He said "I'd rather cook (Short order cook experience) in a resturant and be happy with my job" I then said "Well, you MADE a choice of getting married, having kids and thus moving to a bigger home and thus incurring more bills. Did you honestly think you could make it on $7 an hour living as you do now?"

He gave me a dirty look and walked away....Yeah, the truth does hurt...





They aren't really making it though. It only takes a week or two of being out sick or injured & they start to get behind.
There are some great jobs in the cullinary field but when you get to that point you are dealing with people who appreciate & respect food because those cooks wont cook for you if you dont respect & pay them well for doing it. They have to look beyond McDonalds yet these days people will be lucky to get a job there.

I will never understand why the important things in life, such as food & cooks, farmers & waiters, and everything involved to harvest & sustain are the things that people look down on, disrespect & want to pay people the less for. Since when are cheap plastic gadgets & cell phones worth more than food & those who harvest it. Makes no sense. & why so many people both rich & poor treat people in that business with no respect as if they have no intelligence boggles my mind.

They all forget one very important thing...if there was no dishwasher, no one would be going out to eat.

Big government & unfair competition had no business ridding of the family farmer & they did it so people would be forced into the system & not be able to sustain themselves in hard times.
I know someone who went to law school for 7 years & waited tables along the way. He did not have some rich daddy to pay his way.



I some cases, neither do I...Very puzzling this worker/managemnt concept..Then again, these humans are so strange also :D

Because too often both sides try to take advantage of each other. BUt it is amazing what can happen when you have owners, manager & employees that are working for the best of everyone they work with. Very hard to find.

Mutual respect will never be earned when you have managers/owners who sit on their butts yelling & screaming at the line with threats while the line does all the work, the owner shows off their jaguars & million dollar homes & the workers go home to a slumlord apartment who just happens to be the same guy they work for.
That is where I am coming from.

By the way- I enjoyed your post about Oregon & politics because it is all true!

We can discuss unions and the present economy and what has caused it "till the cows come home"... Many reasons of WHY and HOW this happended.

Lots of folks do not like unions...... and many are union workers that rely on the unions to stand up for them (often this does not happen)... and many do not understand how the union works (for the company and for the workers).

Personally, I have never belonged to a union, nor ever had a union represent me..... I think I can handle THAT myself! And always have.

My oldest brother (retired) was a union steward for UAW for many years. I've seen him lay his own job on the line in defense of a union workers rights.
I've seen him cross picket lines, been threatened with his life, etc. But he always stood up for his workers he represented. He MADE the union work for him and his fellow union members. And he was the 1st in line, when the Union tried to pull the wool over everybodys eyes in a settlement, pay raise, ect.

Unions can be good in the right conditions, and bad in the wrong conditions.

Much of life expectations depends on the "inituitive" of the person. If the person is a "go-getter", they can accomplish much in thier lives, (financially and privately). If they are a "oh-well, my life is okay" person, they will drift with the rest of the crowd.

Often folks feel like its a waste to go back to school (like my age - what would I do with a college degree - I'm retiring!!)- kind of a waste, huh?

Most folks DO NOT live up to their potential, many don't want too!!

If your work hard to succeed, then you should be rewarded for succeeding. If you are a slacker, or just don't care about getting ahead in life, then don't cry because folks have more in life than you do. They have earned it, you haven't...... unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Our society is made up of the very rich (often born rich), self made millionaires, middle-class, folks that live from paycheck to paycheck, and those that live in poverty (often born into it - or choose it) and the
homeless.....

Lack of education holds many back in improving their lifestyle...... but even more are held back with the attitude of "I can't do any better" or " don't want to do any better"...... Some even "think" we owe them a living just because they exist!!!

In our day and time, all levels of folks, should count their blessings....... for most of them have many - good health, sound bodies, and families that love and support them.... no matter what the lifestyle is.

Jealousy goes back to the beginning of time.... everybody "wants the best" or wants what the "Jones have"......

Each person makes their own personal decisions about their lifestyle.... many make wrong decisions that are disasterous in the end. Some make wise decisions for the all around good of the family. To each his own.

Politics, religion, and race and ethinic background are subjects that often get out of hand on this forum. Often the topics have to be removed or banned in the end.

Folks should agree to disagree in good faith when discussing these topics. Then you can have a good debate about them.

You cannot force your beliefs on me anymore than I can force you to see the world as I see it!!! My way may not be right for you, and vise versa!!!

Discuss your topics, BUT keep your ATTITUDES under control when you do!!!

Its the very many races, backgrounds, and beliefs that make our forum one of the best............

Keep an open mind, when discussing topics.............. EVERYONE WILL BENEFIT FROM IT...................

My thoughts on the topics...........

Minny

They aren't really making it though. It only takes a week or two of being out sick or injured & they start to get behind.

Now that's one thing that hit me in the past 2 years. I worked at a company that paid holidays, vac and sick leave. Heck your birthdayw as ALSO a "Paid Holiday"!

So, going to the midwest was a complete shock (In pay and benefits) to me and while I didn't like it, there wasn't alot of choice about what job to take (Temp companies are not begging for workers like on east/west coasts) and so I worked at what I could get.

Being hired also was a surprise.."You must understand, we need you here to work, not out goofing off. So, we don't have "Sick Pay" for you if you get sick..Oh, but we Do have "No points, no pay" benefit.

Great, out sick and I don't get points accumulated because I have 5 no points days..Of course, I don't get PAID either.

So what does a person do? Yep, they COME INTO WORK SICK. Which of course, exposes alot of workers to something they'd really not have.

And of course, those who do come in, are a danger to everyone and themselves..But management no longer cares about this...I am just stunned things could change so in such a little time.



By the way- I enjoyed your post about Oregon & politics because it is all true!


Yeah, my manager then sat there after I said that and nodded his head...It would have been funny, had it not been true..But it was...

A lot of places no longer pay "sick leave".....

My office is one of them..... my boss says "I'm not paying you to be out sick" - your not getting any work done, so why pay you??? If I did pay you sick leave - all I'm doing is encouraging you to take a day off and call in!! If we are out sick we have to use our vacation time to make it up. Actually, we are forced into using our vacation time, for each hour we are out sick. If we run out of vacation time, then we have to work over to make-up time.....

There's been many a year that my vacation time was used to be out sick. Anybody iwith allergies or asthma can relate to this. One of the girls was out with open-heart surgery...... had to make up all her time even if it stretched into the next years vacation time.

If someone in her family was sick she could have used the Family Leave Act, but since it was her that was sick, all time had to be made up.....

Now how stupid is THAT..............................

People have accidents, sickness, deaths, that require them to be off work.... Its not like they can actually do anything about it...... but yet they are penalized for it by some business. Heaven forbid they have a child in school...............

Business's that work as team members - thrive.............. others often fail... thru their own stupidity or organizational setups. A business can destroy itself from the inside out...............

Employees thrive when a boss "cares", they give their jobs the "heart and soul" in work production and good work ethics. Its a WIN, WIN to everyone..... the business, the boss, and the employee. Everybody has a purpose and goal and are rewarded by acheiving it.

Most corporations today are run by supervisors who are "company men" and are trained to take care of the company, and we'll reward YOU - not the folks who work under you.

The "union" is supposed to protect the little man, but often it is only for the good of "all the union members"..... a persoanl battle of one individual is often neglected.

A good thriving business today can thank their employees for making it so. They can appreciate the input they get from employees reguarding how things are run, suggestions for improvements on the job etc. A good business has good management skills, execellent employees, and benefits to entich them all........

Unfortunately, many businesses are run by dictators..... work you'll get paid and that's it!!!. That's why many are failing in our socety today....

Our company allows us to use vacation days for sick days, but that's all we get. We also get three days for funerals.

Sadly most of the Unions anymore are about enriching the union leaders and not the workers. It's much the same problem we have with the majority of our elected officials.

I've never worked for a Union though my dad was part of the Teamsters. I've primarily always worked in right to work states. My dad used to tell me about his union meetings, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would show up at the meetings and basically make the decisions because no one else would come. Then of course they'd all grumble at changes. That's much like our nation's politics, less than half the citizens of this nation of voting age have cast ballots in the elections for the last 20 years. I've been guilty myself skipping a couple times (well in 2000 I couldn't vote because I moved and didn't think to file an absentee ballot in my previous state). I made sure to vote this time though :)

WOW! A great lengthy thread w/ multiple sides to look at.

Getting back to the OP's topic - There were some grains of truth in the letter altough I must admit I DESPISE Michael More (anybody see Team America? LOL). Those CEO's of the bailed out comapnies should have been arrested and prosecuted for promoting that type of orginazational cutlure.

And about the big 3 - I would like to add a contributing factor: Most of their designs blow!!! Why is that super badass Camaro just now coming out? Chevy discontinued its Astro van for the Venture? What gives? The S-10 line removed? Ford w/ it'd Freestyle? WTF?!?! Where is the innovation?
Don't even get me started on Jeep removing the Cherokee in '01!!! And what hell is with all of their overlap? Riddle me that, Batman.

I don't kow if I said this, but here's my take on the whole deal...

I'm REALLY glad the UAW wouldn't budge on pay. I mean really, the automaker agreed to stop lawsuits, deal better with fuel economy and such..But wait, did they give up some of THEIR money?? :aggress:

Nope..That's why I totally support the UAW with standing fast. :aggress:

Now regarding unions in general..I worked at the Tualitin coke distributor who had a union and on the night shift, there was one guy with 25 YEARS in the union..Why was he on the night shift? Because the night manager was the only one who could get him to work! :blink:

This really puzzled me, but I would see this guy just dick out the night, load maybe 2 small sidedelivery trucks (The other 3 people would do 16 and I was loading the 40+ foot trailers (Really easier then the smaller trucks..REALLY) by myself..Ok, did have another guy, but for every one he did, I did 4...So...bye bye to him. :clapping:

But one morning guy told me "He's got 25 years in, he's the most senior and if he don't really want to work he'll just sit there on the dock doing nothing..Now I don't for one moment think this was right...But it was VERY curious.:blink:

I was just at a loss to totally understand, but then again, I'd probably have to have been in the union to do so...:blink:

Geneco you realize that the UAW does have to give into wage/benefit cuts according to the terms of the loan by no later than Dec 31st 2009.

Is that the new loan that Bush signed (In the spending bill) or the one that failed?

OK, saw it was in the spending bill..Just nice how it was rammed down the UAWs throat.

Not surprising, I suspect though this will lead to possibly a fight somewhere soon and there's going to be alot of plants sitting idle for awhile.

Personally since they are borrowing my money and make more than 3 times I do in total compensation, I think it's fair.

However it is possible the Obama administration might overlook that requirement.

However without concessions from labor, as well as management and creditors they can't be viable. If they are unwilling we shouldn't loan them any money and just let them collapse as its just flushing the money otherwise.

I didn't hear of management taking any cuts..Guess we'll be seeing the car maker assembly line people in line at the soup kitchen

Govt, does not "bail-out" the individual, nor the small business man, WHY SHOULD THEY BAIL OUT CORPORATIONS - that can't run their business competently.

Most auto plants are run by "robot machinery", no individuals (they only overlook the machinery), so this is added income for the corporation. Automation put MANY PEOPLE out of work in many factories across the US.... This is one way that corporations have billions in Qtly Profits. They are out no "employee expense" in a lot of areas.

Our govt is now using valuable tax payer money to bail out - savings & loans, banks, large corporations, wall street, and oil refinerys (all who have gotten in over their heads loaning out money or spending too much).

People like the little man (us) or the private business owner has no recourse, they are forced into bankruptcy. These large corporations should be the same way...... forced to sell their assets, etc, and forced into a Chapter 13 and restructure.

NO FREE BAIL-OUT SHOULD EVER BE GIVEN TO ANYONE.....without consequences..... loss of assets, restructuring, etc.... AND ESPECIALLY without loss of big CEO benefits, etc. These CEO's are supposed to be keeping these companies on the "right track".......... They are not earning their benefits, if their company FAILS............

What we're to do about it all......... that's the problem. Someday in our future, their will be an "UPROAR' of the private sector against all these bailouts and unfair practices by our govt.

Someday the "private sector" will be "TAXED" - TILL THEY SAY NO MORE!!!
There's people right now who refuse to pay taxes of any kind, what does the govt. do about it...... REALLY NOTHING...... most cities won't even collect property taxes or parking tickets.... BUT yet they will increase the taxes for the people who will pay freely. Someday, it will all change.....................

That day should be interesting, I hope I live to see it!!! What will the govt do then? See how many soldiers volunteer, how many contractors get paid, how many shuttles they send into space (searching for a new world) While people here on earth are starving and freezing to death.................

Like I said, I hope I live to see it...................