Can't locate form 'Complaint to Determine Dischargeability of Student Loan'

All,

I am filing pro se. I am after discharge but before the close. While reading my Nolo book for post-discharge issues, I saw that student loans can be discharged under certain circumstances. I had been told by everyone, attorneys included, that was simply not possible. I'm in Middle District Florida and the requirements are spelled out quite clearly. They might be difficult to meet but, they are there.

So, I let the court know that I would be sending this motion? well before close.

The book names the form as in my message title but, I cannot find this form anywhere. I also looked in this forum's section on forms. The link to middle district forms is there but, I had already been there. The form I want my be there but, I can't find it.

Any help much appreciated,
Glen B

Be careful. This is one area of a pro se case that I will caution anyone to tread lightly on.


Adversarial Proceedings (AP or Complaints), can get expensive to litigate
if you lose the AP, you may end up paying additional attorney fees (the respondent's fees)
You must understand the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and Federal Rules of Evidence, in addition to the Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure
The NoLo books don't address APs because they are mini-lawsuits and can be challenging
Depending on your District, you may need to issue a Summons to Answer or Appear
You need to clearly state your factual and legal basis for discharging the debt and be able to make your case during trial.



Personally, I wouldn't attempt it, but having wrote what I wrote.

You need to file, in your District, the appropriate format for an Adversarial Proceeding / Complaint. The "cover sheet" (Form B104) is not the complaint. It is just a summary sheet for the complaint. It is a form, but is not your pleading. Of course, you will then need to serve the pleading appropriately as well.

There's a generally recognized format for all Complaints. However, your local rules may have a specific form, but I know of none for Florida Bankruptcy Districts. You should look around (search) for some Adversarial Proceedings to see the format.

Here's the official coversheet... B 104 Adversary Proceeding Cover Sheet (08/07) (http://www.uscourts.gov/rules/BK_Forms_08_Director/Form_104_0807.pdf). All forms are located at http://www.uscourts.gov/bkforms/bankruptcy_forms.html#official but the local District may have District specific rules and procedures.

I agree, this is not something a pro se litigant should attempt, its a major undertaking. You should find someone willing to do it pro bono.

Are you asserting hardship, if so...

Realize, you MUST call expert witnesses to testify and YOU are the one that is going to have to certify them as experts and do the direct examination. These are not just simple hearings where you show up and plead your case. These student loan cases are full blown civil proceedings with discorvery, certifying of experts, and a bench trial where you call witnesses to testify as to your earning potential, nature of the hardship etc. The burden is on YOU to prove that paying back the student loan is a hardship. I wish you luck.

Thank you for your informative reply.

I didn't realize "the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and Federal Rules of Evidence, in addition to the Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure" would come into this.

Also, I didn't envision a win/lose with costs type of situation. I thought the judge would allow it or not based on my two pages of arguements. :D

Again, thank you for this valuable information.

Glen B

HHM,

Your post came in while I was drafting my previous reply.

I do have all weekend to prepare myself for this. :unsure:

I think I'll be looking around for some expert help. What kind of incentive could be offered that might make an attorney consider pro-bono?

Glen

PACER is down in most parts of the country today. Otherwise, i would have found a sample complaint (pleading) for you.

In any event, try to find a lawyer to take this on. Pro Bono lawyers usually will work if it's a hardship. There are some great pro bono attorneys in Jacksonville, so I heard. (I don't live anywhere near Jacksonville, so can't remember his name... but he received the highest honors even from the U.S. Bankruptcy court as an advocate of debtors and the process.)

Interesting. I will have to do some searches...

Thanks

The fact is, these cases are rarely brought. For an experienced attorney, they are not particularly difficult to do, but its rare to find an attorney that does these on a routine basis. Thus, the incentive for most attorneys is a chance to bring the case, most debtors simply cannot afford to bring these actions, these types of cases tend to cost $10,000-$12,000

Incidentally, what exactly is your fact scenario such that you think you even have a viable case?

I have a Neuro Surgeon's education worth of SL ( and no, I am no where near having a doctorate in anything!)

And although I would love to have this debt discharged, I wouldn't even consider attempting a AP on a SL debt.

I did some research on discharging SL debt prior to filing and what I found out is, unless you are basically so severely disabled or for whatever other reason- have no chance of making any source of income during your lifetime, your SL debt is here to stay. And even if the former applies to you, it is not a slam dunk for dischargability.

Because there are programs like the income contingent repayment plans and the 25 year limit on paying back the debt, the courts generally don't rule payback of the SL debt a hardship because the monthly payments can be reduced to accomodate income.

I read a bunch of case law dealing with dischargability of SL, and virtually every case was ruled non-dischargable and there were some pretty needy debtors that tried to discharge the debt.

I doubt it would be worth the effort, headache and expense unless you are so incredibly disabled that you will not be able to work/earn income in the future.

That being said, there are programs where you can get your SL forgiven by, for example, teaching in an underserved market ( read ghetto/poor/dangerous neighborhooods or some special ed programs)

There are other debt forgivness programs out there, you can do a google search and see what is offered.

Dingdong is absolutely correct. We are not trying to discourage you, but give you a realistic expectation of what is involved.
Even this case which I posted in the student loan forum
http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=33234
Was only won, for the most part, on a technicality. The one student loan provider did not offer an income sensitive repayment option, thus, under the debtors circumstances and future income prospects, the student loan was considered a hardship.

My first post so not sure if this will end up on the right tread but let's try. I'm about to file myself for Ch 7 but I also want to try the hardship on my Parent Plus loans. I hope some of you experienced posters read and offer ideas/comments as it sounds like a lot to bite off but I seem to fit the profile.
So here's the raw detail:
- I'm single, 68 years old, healthy, unemployed, ex-corp computer industry salesman
- current income and for a few years now - 1600 for SS and 450 from a small pension plan
- less assets than even exemptions cover- less than $10K; debt of nearly $150K of which $75 k is from the Parent Plus loans to get the kids through school as my world crumbled this decade.
- I can live frugally on the $2050 in So CA but nothing left for even medical, dental, gifts, family, fun,....etc.

So it seems like I meet the briefly stated requirements....I have paid along the way as long as I could, I can't live long enough to even pay the consolidated and extended monthlies, and if they made me pay the $600 a month I would be living under a bridge somewhere...chances of a job these days if bleak and at 68 it gets impossible very soon if not already.

So I keep searching for a case like me or comments, etc. but none so far....and if I'm dirt poor how could I pay $10K for help...I'm already doing the Ch & on my own!

Help please,

Gary

You sound like a good candidate, but remember, you still have to file the Adversary Proceeding in BK.

HHH, thanks, certainly reading everything I can find so far it looks like no one ever wins. So can I follow -up with a few questions at the next level.

- Do I get to attach a brief/or detailed argument stating my reasons with the Adversary form so that who ever reads the argument can make a 'go/no go' decision? If everything automatically goes to a full blown court case how could someone who is another level in need below the BK requirement - poverty line, etc. - ever really pursue it? I can't really afford the basic BK7 effort (so doing this grunt work myself - I'm thankful already for this Forum!) so the $10K ain't gonna happen for a court case!

- It doesn't appear that the Adversary issue affects the rest of the BK7 decision in action and timing? Ture?

- So here's another major idea I ask comments on. If I go to the lender or servicer (EdFund) with an argument that I would and could try a significantly reduced loan and payment structure....let's say 20% of what is there today rather than just never paying forever and have the balance go to the moon and their costs mount, etc....would it be better to try that card before the filing of the Adversary and a decision is render on it or after if I lose on it?

A note here for all that I did trip over is that, while forgiveness nearly always creates a taxable income on SLs, it appears that if you take the forgiveness while still way under water assets to liabilites wise that there is a tax exception you can exercise so it is another factor for consideration as normally the tax issue moves your problem to the IRS and that is maybe the worst place to owe. Any experiences or comments?

Finally, I see nothing anywhere where the comments revolve around the Parent Plus version of the SL situation or am I not looking under the right rocks...reason is that there the age factor might be more likely an issue if their family came late.

Thx, Gary

One bump in your road to determine dischargabilty of your PLUS loans is the availability of consolidation through the William Ford Direct Consolidation Loan program.

PLUS loans can be consolidated throught the program. They have a program called the Income Contingent Repayment Plan. Under this program , Ed Fund looks at your IRS tax returns and determines your payments for the SL debt based on your income. They offer up to 30 years of repayment. If your income is very low, they can adjust your payments from anywhere to 0.00 to what ever.

To give you an example, during a couple of years of my repayment terms, my payment was 0.00 for a year and then bumped up to 5.00/a month one year, and 22.00 the next. I do have two dependants, which helped keep my payment low, but my income was larger than the income you personally make now as stated in your post.

My SL debt is larger than your stated SL debt.

So while you may feel that you qualify for hardship, if a BK judge is aware of these programs ( and I am sure many are) they may not allow dischargiblity based on this fact alone. That although the debt may be large and seemingly unmanageable, the payment plans offered through a consolidator can make payment of the SL debt manageable.

And although a payment of 25.00 (hypothetically) will not even begin to make a dent in the balance, it is still income to the govt, and circumstances may change in the future ( though probably unlikely) that may warrant a higher payment (i.e you obtain a better future income, inheritance or windfall of some sort).

If you are in repayment in the WFDL program, after 25 years, the balance of the loan is forgiven.

I am not trying to discourage you from trying to discharge this debt, and more power to you if you can get it done, but it may be cost prohibitve if you try and fight through an AP to determine dischargiblity and the judge says, "well have you tried consolidation through WF?" or if the judge is aware of what possible payment the WF program can offer you.


You might want to call WF and see what the payments would be like given your income and debt amount and know that info going in to the AP, that X payment through the IC plan is still too high for you to make it. That way at least you would have some ammunition for determining hardship. IF the WF people say your payment is only going to be 10.00/month, the judge may have this info available and say that given your income, 10.00 is not a hardship.

Dingdong, thanks some real interesting and encouraging ideas to follow up on. I did go to a site about the Income Contingency Payment and see this comment deep in the article..."Only student loans may be included in the income contingent repayment plan. Parent loans, such as the Parent PLUS loan, are not eligible. Only loans that are guaranteed by the Federal government may be included. (Grad PLUS loans are not eligible for income-contingent repayment until July 1, 2009. However, consolidation loans that include Grad PLUS loans are eligible for income-contingent repayment, provided that the borrower did not enter repayment before July 1, 2006.) " Is that in conflict with what I see you saying or am on the wrong page? Since you appear to be from CA and have experienced this yourself I really appreciate your comments - am I correct that you were also under the Plus version not just a student with direct SLs?

I did do a reconsolidation at one time of most of it and am out to I'd be 95 when the last payment is due...but I'm still owing $600 a month that I will never have, baring a Lottery win, again or for that long...lol...like I'll live to see the day!

Another question concerns the altenative of renego the entire package if one was betting that you would lose the Adversary approach. Would they renego? and if its possible, when is best...before you get beat or have to go to court or after you lose and still can't pay. One reason this timing appears of some relovance besdies the odds being better one way or the other is that the forgiveness before and after BK when the assets to debt ratios change might make a tax difference on the forgiveness...there are exceptions to forgiveness if you have a terrible asset to liability ratio it seems.

Thx, Gary

What kind of PLUS loans do you have exactly? They were not Federally backed loans?

The factor of who backs/issued your loans is important as you noted.

Here are the loans that qualify for consolidation through WF.

IS your loan one of these?

The following federal education loans are eligible for consolidation into a Direct Consolidation Loan:

Subsidized Loans:

Subsidized Federal Stafford Loans
Direct Subsidized Loans
Subsidized Federal Consolidation Loans
Direct Subsidized Consolidation Loans
Federal Insured Student Loans (FISL)
Guaranteed Student Loans (GSL)

Unsubsidized Loans:

Unsubsidized and Nonsubsidized Federal Stafford Loans
Direct Unsubsidized Loans, including Direct Unsubsidized Loans (TEACH) (converted from TEACH Grants)
Unsubsidized Federal Consolidation Loans
Direct Unsubsidized Consolidation Loans
Federal PLUS Loans (for parents or for graduate and professional students)
Direct PLUS Loans (for parents or for graduate and professional students)
Direct PLUS Consolidation Loans
Federal Perkins Loans
National Direct Student Loans (NDSL)
National Defense Student Loans (NDSL)
Federal Supplemental Loans for Students (SLS)
Parent Loans for Undergraduate Students (PLUS)
Auxiliary Loans to Assist Students (ALAS)
Health Professions Student Loans (HPSL)
Health Education Assistance Loans (HEAL)
Nursing Student Loans (NSL)
Loans for Disadvantaged Students (LDS)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ineligible Loans

Some loans are always ineligible for consolidation. While these loans may not be included in a Direct Consolidation Loan, they may be considered in the calculation of the maximum repayment period under the Graduated or Extended Repayment Plan. These include but are not limited to the following:

Loans made by a state or private lender and not guaranteed by the federal government
Primary Care Loans
Law Access Loans
Medical Assist Loans
PLATO Loans

http://loanconsolidation.ed.gov/borrower/bloans.html

Here is some more info you may find useful.






To qualify for a Direct Consolidation Loan, borrowers must have at least one Direct Loan or Federal Family Education Loan (FFEL) that is in grace, repayment, deferment or default status. Loans that are in an in-school status cannot be included in a Direct Consolidation Loan.

Borrowers can consolidate most defaulted education loans, if they make satisfactory repayment arrangements with the current loan holders or agree to repay their new Direct Consolidation Loan under the Income Contingent Repayment Plan.

Borrowers who do not have Direct Loans may be eligible for a Direct Consolidation Loan if they include at least one FFEL Loan and have been unable to obtain a Federal Consolidation Loan with a FFEL consolidation lender or have been unable to obtain a Federal Consolidation Loan with income-sensitive repayment terms acceptable to them or intend to apply for loan forgiveness under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program.
Borrowers who have only a Direct Consolidation Loan cannot consolidate again unless they include an additional loan.

NOTE: The Direct Loan Servicing Center has information on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program.

Source:
http://loanconsolidation.ed.gov/borrower/beligible.html

The loans I have are Federal Plus Loans, I am about to get current on who is holding them as I'm sure they got passed around much like the serviing did. I did do a consolidation on most of them and am already out to 30 years with a decent rate - yeah I'm about 95 by the end...but still the $600/month can't be done. When I did these I had resources and ways to pay them off when I wanted to but the interest rates were good, didn't have sell things, etc. but since then my world truned upside down, education was longer than expected...so today's problem is unexpected but ain't going away.

So net is that just a Consolidation won't do any good here with out a real severe haircut to the payment and balances due.

Gary

Did your consolidator offer an income contingent repayment plan.

My balances are over 100,000.00.

Yes you can call me DR. Ding Dong, except I don't have a doctorate to go along with the SL balance ( although the balance is severly inflated by collection fees/interes when I defaulted so I didn't actually borrow that much-:blush2: )

My payments are verrrrrry low. Very manageble at this point. The IC plan is very forgiving for low income debtors through WFDL consolidation.
Sure I will be in repayment for 25 years, but c'est la vie.

You should go to this link and see what your payments would be like with the IC plan. .

I entered a loan balance of 75000.00 single, @ 5% with an AGI income of 24,000. The IC payment was 226.00.

Is your SS income taxable? If it doesn't show as taxable income, your payment would be 0.00! They go off your AGI from your tax returns.

Try using the calculator imputting your AGI from this or last year and see that your payment would be.

Here is the link to the calculator:
https://loanconsolidation.ed.gov/loancalc/servlet/common.mvc.Controller

BTW, it doesn't matter who holds them now, if they were Federally issued loans, they are able to be consolidated, unless of course, you refinanced them through a private source, like a HELOC/Private or other line of credit, then you may lose your consolidation benefits.

Okay, your giving me some hope and will now have to go back and work through what has been said in more detail and understanding.

No the consolidator at that time was just moving the loans together, extending payment time and freezing the rate - I did it then as just a good business decision.

This link still concerns me as towards the bottom it says that Parent Plus loans are not condidates - only a student .....bad write up or am I miss reading?
http://www.finaid.org/loans/icr.phtml

My AGI this year is stil undetermined as I wait for one more piece but will be well under $5000; 2007 was $6235. SS is non-tazable for many depending on what else is going on. The small pension does get counted but then my cap gains tax losses will forever keep that under wraps!! Sad.... a walking tax shelter is what I've become...guess wealthy women don't frequent this Forum...too bad...lol

Let me ask also...with your deal do you have to relook at your AGI every year for a redo, or report to them success, or do you have deal that says if you get lucky and change your economic life you still have your deal?

Thx, Gary

Every year that you are on the IC plan, the lender ( here the govt) checks your IRS records for your AGI, and adjusts your payment based on what you file in your tax return. To qualify for an IC plan, you sign an agreement allowing WF to access your tax records in order to determine your payment.

I would just call William Ford, explain your situation, which loans you have , etc and your income (AGI) and ask them wheter you qualify or not based on loan type.

Probably the easiest way to see if you qualify is to speak to the source directly. They are very friendly and knowledgable at WF.

That does sound like a next step after I gather the loan info so I'm accurate as to who owns it, etc. I did try that calc and using the same info you suggested but with a AGI of $5000 (which is close to what I need) the consolidation for a Federal Plus loan or the other PLUS for undergrads was much bigger - std monthly over $400/month....what am I doing wrong if anything? thx.

You are looking at standard monthly payment, the IC payment is the last one in the list on the bottom when it gives you the payment options. Do it again but look at the bottom figure where is says IC payment.

thx, my bad as I didn't scroll down...also answers a few of my other questions. That would be a great alternative if I fit it anyhow...would slow down the ugly additional charges being a bad boy and I don't have a problem paying as possible if I got back in the saddle with serious $$ coming on on the SL issues.

Dingdong PhD, since the initial responses I went and got the actual types of the loans at the NSLDS site and found that they are FFEL Consolidated (2) and FFEL PLUS loans (2) from the current lender US Bank ELT Ed Loans Inc. That appears to compound the likely hood that the Income Contingent plan isn't applicable in addition to the quote I found that if not a student it also might not be a fit. Agree? It sounds like you were okay but maybe because you were a student?

So the alternative for the FFEL's is something

".....Income Sensitive Repayment (ISR) is an alternative to income contingent repayment for loans serviced by lenders in the Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP). It is designed to make it easier for borrowers with lower paying jobs to make their monthly loan payments. ...."

Not good when you look at it for an old guy with little income potential and not many options. Am I missing something/anything? Getting depressed at the alternatives again!!

Question - I see the reference to call William Ford for some guidance give the circumstances - was there a contact number or web site mentioned too...I seem to remember it as a starting place but don't see it reviewing our exchange? Do you have a pointer to them?

Thx, Gary

How difficult is it to prove "undue hardship" in Adversarial Proceedings? My Attorney wants an additional $3500 to discharge my $2700 Student Loan, so I might have to do this part pro se.

Does one add the "Complaint to Determine Dischargeability of Student Loan" in the "cover sheet" (of Form B104), or should it be separate? I have yet to see a good example of this form, and how this process is done.

Is it served on both the Creditor & the Trustee? What is "Proof of Service?" Are any additional forms needed? How does the defendant "respond" in writing to the complaint? Is this included in my form?

Having done Small Claims Cases successfully by myself, I think I have a strong case with my SSI, proving my inability to work, how I have made "good faith" payments, demonstrated persistence, etc. I used up all my Deferments allowed, and now the loan is just sitting on Forbearance ... A "Fresh Start" needs to be just that.

The Loan is not huge -- would the other side even hire an Attorney to defend against my AP?

There is also the new IBR, Income Based Repayment. Basically, you would pay 10% of your gross annaul income for 25 years. This new program will make it virtually impossible to get a student loan discharge in bankruptcy for anyone who makes more than 30 times the federal minimum wage.

If you move foward with the Complaint, it is filed seperately from your BK petition and must be served on the student loan servicer. I don't think you need to serve the trustee.

Adding to this thread:

I plan on attempting to get my student loans discharged via the Adversarial Proceedings. I believe I meet and can satisfactorily prove the hardship requirements under the Brunner test, and I don't feel qualified to attempt this pro se.

However as of now, I have been unable to find a pro bono attorney to aid with this. While I know I could attempt to re-open the case, I intend to file prior to my upcoming deadline. I don't have any particular questions at the moment, and am reviewing information but guidance, references, suggestions are all very welcome.

Also, I wasn't sure if I should open a separate thread or keep it contained to here?

Thanks,
Vic

I submitted some paperwork at the court-house today, and spoke with their legal clinic person, over some other things, and asked a question to confirm my timeline for filing for the student loan discharge, and she informed me that no one has ever managed a student loan discharge in my state (Illinois).

I thought about the post from UpsideDownMI about how they were told no one ever successfully filed a pro se chapter 13. I was wondering if this information was accurate. Is there anyway to check?

I'd be real good to know how to look that up... =)

I've tabled my lawyer search for the moment, and focused on finishing the possible reaffirmation of my car loan first, as well as some other business. I really understand my chances are low - and if there haven't been any discharges, I may not even attempt it, with or without lawyer.

Thanks

I submitted some paperwork at the court-house today, and spoke with their legal clinic person, over some other things, and asked a question to confirm my timeline for filing for the student loan discharge, and she informed me that no one has ever managed a student loan discharge in my state (Illinois). The only way to really discharge student loans, is to show hardship. It's extremely hard for me to believe that there was never one person who was able to prove hardship in Illinois (given its population). The clinic person probably should have said it is "rare"... which it is.

So what's your basis for seeking a discharge of your student debts?

Why the heck are you reaffirming your car loan. In fact, doing so probably hurts your student loan case. Reaffirmations get denied because they create "undue hardship".

Anyway, back on topic, I am willing to bet that the legal clinic's person statement is true, the fact is, the cases are rarely brought. And most cases that are brought, lose. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't be surprised if her statement true.

I'm going to post about the car later tonight... and, me, again, I guess.

I am disabled, I am not going to be able to realistically work again. I have been in forbearance for almost 5 years. My only income is SSDI. The section8 list has been closed the majority of that time, and while my rent takes up 44% of my income, it is 39% lower than Fair Market Rent. The utilities, consume an additional 12%, medical, even with medicare and medicaid hover's around 26%, depending on how ill I am. My car, that gets me to appointments, some of my specialized care isn't local, will be close to 8%... not to mention my food (i'm in appeal, again, with foodstamps), household goods and an attempt to save, which I fit in here.

Then...there is, of course, the disability... and the factors of the disability that make it impossible to sustain employment, and the reasons for applying now, vs then, as well as a lot of the good faith activities... I really don't want to go into any of that on a forum.

And...honestly... I just want to try. I have to deal with my income and disability situation every day for the rest of my life. I don't want to face the naive (non-disabled) self, who willing believed that if she signed loans, completed school, she would have the education and income needed to live a very different life.

Not for (possibly) 25 years of this... not while I watch my $57k in loan, balloon in interest over 25 years, with a nice tax payment...

not if i can help it.

Since you have a disability which impacts your future ability to earn income, then you are the person whom they would allow a discharge of student debt. This would be a Complaint to Determine Dischargeability of Student Debt due to Hardship.

It may be better to have an attorney prepare this. You may want to call the Clerk of the Bankruptcy Court and see if there are any pro bono or free legal services available to you.

Thanks.


My initial call to several pro-bono agencies, resulted in declining aid to help with my bankruptcy, based on the grounds that, ssdi, being my only income is non-garnishable.

I've spoken with 2 private attorneys who wanted a 4-6k retainer.. can't do that.

My next step was to write a letter/request for aid, and resend to the pro-bono and state bar's website. Barring that, I was going to attempt to start the proceeding and see what happens... I'm not there yet.

However,hearing that there have been no successful discharges, make me wonder if I should redirect my energy elsewhere, because, surely I am not the only student-loan disabled person in my district.=)

However,hearing that there have been no successful discharges, make me wonder if I should redirect my energy elsewhere, because, surely I am not the only student-loan disabled person in my district.=)While that particular "clinic" helper may have personally never seen one... I can NOT believe that there has NEVER been one in Illinois. Sure, some folks may not remember one...

Courts use the Brunner decision to decide... to establish "undue hardship," the debtor must show] (1) that the debtor cannot maintain, based on current income and expenses, a "minimal" standard of living for herself and her dependents if forced to repay the loans; (2) that additional circumstances exist indicating that this state of affairs is likely to persist for a significant portion of the repayment period of the student loans; and (3) that the debtor has made good faith efforts to repay the loans.

It is still very rare to get it discharged, and can be an uphill battle. This is probably why the pro bono attorneys are saying to just lie low (do nothing because you're judgment proof).

I am filing pro se and have students loans presently totalling over $144000 and have had this loan for over 19 years as I finished college in 1990. I am listing it but since the gov't owns my loan now they don't really care how much I send each month. When I filed back in 99 I listed it then and it wasn't discharged and I don't expect it to be discharged again this time but have listed it under the unsercured section.