Perhaps this is why California is failing?

Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a Bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.

"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the Bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.

"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.

A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.

But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.

For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.

"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."

"The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."

The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.

If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html


Don't mock God. Daniel 5

One of the local San Diego TV stations interviewed the county commissioner about this situation - http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

The real reason the county came to the minister's home is because the prayer group gathering at the home each week was large enough that their cars were blocking other driveways and the street. The county received a complaint from one of the minister's neighbors that they had to investigate. No one was trying to stop the bible study - they were trying to figure out what was happening at the home so they could figure out which local code the problem was under so they would know how to proceed.

This entire event has been blown completely out of proportion. There is no threat to religious freedom nor the right to pray in a private home. There is no government trying to tell anyone they can't pray in their homes. Just too many parked cars on a private street and an over-reacting local official trying to stop the parking hazard and enforce the law about blocking private property and impeding emergency vehicles. No need to push the panic button and continue spreading exaggerated stories about the threat to religious freedom by the government - there is none.

All they need to do (and should have investigated prior to all this) is get the permit and keep the gathering down to a few cars in their driveway and not fill up the street. Or have all the folks gather in someone else's larger house in a rural area or have all pitch in a few bucks and rent someplace each week for a few hours.

Not on a religious line but otherwise, in a surrounding state which prohibits gambling for money/profit in one's home, someone started a weekend poker game between a few buddies which turned out to be an online invite with their wive's serving drinks topless to the attendees. You can imagine the crowd that would attend this; the neighbor's complained because of all the cars in the street not knowing what was going on but they eventually found out and the house owners hit with all sorts of charges. It's best to investigate what you can and cannot do in your state/county/home before attempting to do so.

Just another case of Bible Thumpers exxagerating the truth

They could make it a "green" bible study and have attendees walk or ride their bikes or car pool. Or have everybody park at the church and take the church van over.

Bam! Parking problem solved!

California is failing cuz weeze be broke.

My daughters GATE class is having a penny drive to pay for a field trip.

You get "punished" (lose points) if you put any silver coins in the jar. One penny = 1 point. Value of the silver coins is deducted from the points. Whoever has the most points wins a little bonus prize. I suppose they want to keep the kids from raiding our real savings accounts ( the coin jar in the kitchen cabinet)! They can sabotage other classes by putting silver coins in other classes jars.

Times are tough when your saving pennies to pay for educational trips.:tongue:

I personally believe it is folks who are opposed to Prop 8 trying their best to get even with religious folks.

California was failing long before this though. Their problem is the same problem the Federal Government has, they have promised to many social and other programs that they cannot pay for and that people are not willing to pay. Arnold's proposal to end all welfare programs is a good one in that sense but his legislature and the people probably wouldn't stand for it.

If the person who investigated it asked the questions told in other reports then it most likely was a religious motivation at least with the investigator. A carpool would probably solve any issues, and really if they had a problem with it the neighbor should first have probably spoken to the preacher and his wife, who say they asked all the neighbors and none have said that it bothered them about the bible study. The danger here I see is that it could be extended, what if your buddies have a poker night or game night. It could easily be used to curtail pretty much any small gathering which meets together on a weekly basis.

If the permits didn't cost tens of thousands of dollars for such a small gathering I might could see it as reasonable, but as it is and being enforced it is not reasonable.

I doubt it has anything to do with Prop 8. It's about having too many guests and blocking others driveways and street. Had they not done this, no one would've complained. Sounds like it was investigated beforehand for them to come up with the unlawful religious assembly charge, how else would they have known that it was bible study?

Respect your neighbors. Period.

I lived in San Diego for 11 years and the government is as corrupt as they get in our country. I don't agree with how they handled this but at the same time it was obviously a serious imposition to the neighbors that happened more than once.

So junker you've accepted that it's just "another case of Bible thumpers exaggerating the truth". Have you thoroughly looked into it to see if that's the case? If it were a Gay club meeting and they came up with the same defense would you say the same?

Depends on how "religious assembly" was used by the employee. There are alot of ways to say the same thing and when said the wrong way it can ignite feelings of discriminiation.

That all being said there is a reasonable limit to the number of cars that should be able to park for any one party of any kind but until I get as much of the whole story as possible I won't comment. My son is a Chasidic Rabbi, he has his degree now so I suppose if the County denies him having Ten Men meet in his home because of the parking issue and he takes offense then junker will say "just another case of Jews exaggerating the truth". Sorry but see how offensive it sounds, and he is also a "Torah Thumper".

California is failing cuz weeze be broke.

My daughters GATE class is having a penny drive to pay for a field trip.

You get "punished" (lose points) if you put any silver coins in the jar. One penny = 1 point. Value of the silver coins is deducted from the points. Whoever has the most points wins a little bonus prize. I suppose they want to keep the kids from raiding our real savings accounts ( the coin jar in the kitchen cabinet)! They can sabotage other classes by putting silver coins in other classes jars.

Times are tough when your saving pennies to pay for educational trips.:tongue:

I think that's a great idea (aside from the sabotage) to raise funds. We used to do penny drives for the Make A Wish foundation all of the time. Hopefully they stick to pennies and one wealthy parent doesn't turn a $100 bill into pennies to donate. Most likely that will happen though...

Yeah, it is a cute idea.

All the kids are trying to find silver dollars, but those are hard to come buy in most households. Who carries those around any more, and the gold dollar coins don't count, cuz they are gold.

I didn't realize how many pennies I had until the kiddo started scouring!

Fuund out my couch is a copper mine! Now if I could just get it to keep producing, I may be on to something!

The sabotage part is what makes it fun for them, never knew a nickle could bring so much devious pleasure :D

http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of County regulations, according to Broyles.


An average of 15 people to a home for a 'weekly meeting'?? That is utterly ridiculous. Come on ya'll, take the religion out of it, although I'm a Christian.

Our neighborhood always has something going on each week where cars are lined down the street, whether, it be a Tupperware, Pampered Chef, Boy or Girl Scout Meeting etc.

Just a mile from us, a young Pastor has started a new church in his large home. I was curious about it and couldn't locate the house. A man was out washing his car about 3 houses down and told me where the church meeting was held and his exact words were "I think he is home right now, go talk to him. He is a very nice guy. I work nights, so unable to attend." I didn't stop.

My husband usually leaves on early Sun. am and our church is a long drive for me as I am disabled. I still make the drive as our members have been so kind to us while we are struggling. We have a food pantry and a clothes closet which we were told 'go get what you want'. We feel there are a plenty of others in our area who are in much more need of the services offered by our church.

Luci

I do think this couple needs to take this to the court, though I'm not sure how successful they would be. The City of San Diego seems to have this idea that all of the land belongs to them and they have a right to bully the citizens in their own homes.

I don't care if it's a Bible Study or a swingers party... if they can meet peacefully in their own home without disturbing the neighbors, it's their business. To charge them with unlawful religious assembly is ridiculous.. HOWEVER, the parking issues that imposition the neighbors should definitely be addressed and it should be the same for all. Whether you're having a Tupperware Party or a study group, you need to plan for parking and tell your guests to carpool.

I can see the upset on both sides for this issue (hosts and neighbors, not the snot nosed city officials) and it has nothing to do with Prop 8 or "Bible Thumpers."

Perhaps it was a fee generating issue?

Cities are looking for revenue where ever they can find it.

Drive around, look for kids birthday parties, What?, no assembly permit, whammo , instant bucks for the city.

I think they are on to something!

(Just kidding of course, but hmmmmmm?)

the ISSUE the thumpers wanted to convey to you is they are being discriminated against because they are studying the Bible... which is not the case at all.... they are causing problems blocking other peoples driveways... and traffic...thats all. the thumpers want to make it a religous issue...and yes if your Rabbi son did the same thing i would take issue with that also...the last few times i have been screwed over was by a person specifically calling them selves a Christian.. mind you i never asked or cared about their religous beliefs.. they just voluntered as to make a point oh you can trust me "im a christian" and they all lied through their teeth... call it what it is a spade is a spade.. Catholic priests also do not make good babysitters..

the ISSUE the thumpers wanted to convey to you is they are being discriminated against because they are studying the Bible... which is not the case at all.... they are causing problems blocking other peoples driveways... and traffic...thats all.

There are already ways in dealing with illegal parking. The idea that one must have a permit to hold any type of meeting in their home is ridiculous and deserves scorn.

Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a Bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.

"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the Bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.

"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.

A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.

But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.

For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.

"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."

"The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."

The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.

If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html


Don't mock God. Daniel 5

Far-right AND far-left media outlets never give you the full truth, which is why it's so important to read and listen to more than one, and preferably many. The truth lies somewhere in-between.

The real issue in this story has nothing to do with religion or the right to assemble for religious purposes. The real and only issue is a possible violation of local code due to multiple vehicles and blocked driveways which inconveniences the neighbors. The complaint was placed by the next-door neighbor on those grounds. And those grounds are valid in residential areas.

California is not failing. It is simply failing to be the enormous WASP nest all of the WASPs had always envisioned - with Hispanics and Asians consigned to indentured servitude, and cheap energy, and jobs for everyone, and fixed-rate low interest mortgages.

Caucasian self-righteousness has been terminated. And I'm as white as it's possible to be without being a genetic Albino.

What this whole thing hinges upon is that it is run by a "pastor" and the pastor's home is being used for a religious bible study which some could interpret as a church gathering. Since his house is probably not in an area where a church can be run, he would need to have a permit in order to run religious gatherings. It's a zoning code issue.

What this whole thing hinges upon is that it is run by a "pastor" and the pastor's home is being used for a religious bible study which some could interpret as a church gathering. Since his house is probably not in an area where a church can be run, he would need to have a permit in order to run religious gatherings. It's a zoning code issue.

And he could make it case about it infringing on his 1st Amendment rights especially if it isn't equally applied to any small gathering that meets on a weekly basis in San Diego. That means Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Coach having team over for cookouts weekly, Poker nights, tupperware, etc.

If he can prove that it is only being used to discriminate against his religious meeting then it is a violation of the First Amendment, if however San Diego applies it to all such gatherings then he wouldn't have a case, but i seriously doubt they are requiring permits for all the above.

California is failing because of the enormus burden of the illegal aliens on everything, from schools, prisons, hospitals, check an e r room at a hospital and see if the illegals in the room have insurance which should be about 90% of the patients in there, not because some thumpers are having a meeting blocking everyones driveway..

California is failing because of the enormus burden of the illegal aliens on everything, from schools, prisons, hospitals, check an e r room at a hospital and see if the illegals in the room have insurance which should be about 90% of the patients in there, not because some thumpers are having a meeting blocking everyones driveway..


This is exactly why California is failing along with several others here in the USA

California is failing because of the enormus burden of the illegal aliens on everything, from schools, prisons, hospitals, check an e r room at a hospital and see if the illegals in the room have insurance which should be about 90% of the patients in there, not because some thumpers are having a meeting blocking everyones driveway..

I totally agree. We bought in a brand new subdivision in a small town (chicken factories and chicken farmers) in Arkansas in 10/04. Those who there on a VISA or legal citizen paid cash for these new homes and moved family after family into the 4 bedroom homes. The city had an ordinance, no parking on the streets. So they lined their cars in their yards. It didn't do any good to call the Mayor or the Aldermen/women as they could care less - Revenue!!

All chicken factories had policies to open back doors & let the illegals run if the Feds showed up and they knew where the bus would be to pick them up for work the next morning. How do I know this? Was told that by a neighbor.

We moved 2 years later.

Luci

Junker, I absolutely agree with what you said. More than likely the neighbors want peace and quiet. It is just the way you said it. The City Employee may have delivered the notice but may also have made othe statements is my point. He may have inflamed the situation or not. We do not live in 1799, you can't just tie up a neighborhood road because you feel like it, on that I agree.

I totally agree. We bought in a brand new subdivision in a small town (chicken factories and chicken farmers) in Arkansas in 10/04. Those who there on a VISA or legal citizen paid cash for these new homes and moved family after family into the 4 bedroom homes. The city had an ordinance, no parking on the streets. So they lined their cars in their yards. It didn't do any good to call the Mayor or the Aldermen/women as they could care less - Revenue!!

All chicken factories had policies to open back doors & let the illegals run if the Feds showed up and they knew where the bus would be to pick them up for work the next morning. How do I know this? Was told that by a neighbor.

We moved 2 years later.

Luci

This is off-topic, but are you in the NW Arkansas area? I know Tyson has some plants in the Springdale area. I have friends with a house in Rogers, right on Beaver Lake, and the area is really gorgeous!!! Their daughter goes to college at the U of Ark in Fayetteville.

This is off-topic, but are you in the NW Arkansas area? I know Tyson has some plants in the Springdale area. I have friends with a house in Rogers, right on Beaver Lake, and the area is really gorgeous!!! Their daughter goes to college at the U of Ark in Fayetteville.


No, but I would love to live up there. I also have friends who live in Fayetteville and have a party barge (well, thats what I call them, their like potoon boats) and have spent many weekends on Beaver Lake with them before I became disabled. I've heard Rogers is getting the influx of the illegal aliens.

We lived in Yell County, AR - Danville, CenterRidge, Dardanelle & some other smaller towns. Tyson has plants in Russellville and Dardanelle. Wouldn't be suprised if they didn't buy out Wayne Farms in Danville. Pilgrim's Pride had a location in Yell County, but I think they've closed their doors. Tyson has paid some hefty fines for hiring illegal aliens.

We moved closer to Central Arkansas in 12/07 as I was seeing doctors in Little Rock/North Little Rock area every week when the price of gasoline was so higher. We are now 70 miles closer than when we lived in Yell County.

Luci

Interesting that some in this thread are blaming illegal aliens 100% without a single mention of the American companies who pay those illegals under the table because they work much more cheaply than US citizens who expect a living wage.

If American companies did not pay illegals and if our local and state governments did not look the other way while they do so, then illegals would not be coming into the US and staying in the numbers they are. This is like blaming the messenger rather than dealing with the real source of the problem - US employers who hire illegals. Stopping that practice will eventually stop much illegal immigration and the related drain on community services and resources.

Interesting that some in this thread are blaming illegal aliens 100% without a single mention of the American companies who pay those illegals under the table because they work much more cheaply than US citizens who expect a living wage.

If American companies did not pay illegals and if our local and state governments did not look the other way while they do so, then illegals would not be coming into the US and staying in the numbers they are. This is like blaming the messenger rather than dealing with the real source of the problem - US employers who hire illegals. Stopping that practice will eventually stop much illegal immigration and the related drain on community services and resources.


Tyson has paid some hefty fines for hiring illegal aliens.


Luci

I think I did my best to state the above. The problem is the Court System as Don Tyson has enough money to pay off and get the major lawsuits dismissed even all the way to the Supreme Court.

I've lived in AR since 1967 except from 2/1/03-10/20/04. I don't like it and complained constantly. I wrote a letter to our (2) US Senators & Congressman when the Supreme Court dismissed (oopps, was Thrown Out) a Tyson Foods lawsuit on 2/14/08. What did I receive back? A form letter from one US Senator thanking me for being a concerned citizen, yada yada.

Thankfully we now live in a small town with no illegal aliens, to my knowledge. I check the Public School system, our local & county government website each year for ethnicity.

Luci

San Diego County Backs Down (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/?imw=Y)

County won't force permit on Bible study leaders
Code officer formally warned couple over meetings at home
By Helen Gao, Union-Tribune Staff Writer, Janine Zúñiga, Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. May 30, 2009

Sweeping issues of religious freedom and governmental regulation are swirling around Pastor David Jones' house in rural Bonita, attracting attention from as far away as China and New Zealand.

He says it all started with $220 in car damage.

Jones and his wife, Mary, hold a weekly Bible study at their home that sometimes attracts more than 20 people, with occasional parking issues. Once, a car belonging to a neighbor's visitor got dinged.

David Jones paid for the damage, but he thinks the incident spurred a complaint to the county.

A code enforcement officer warned the couple in April for holding a “religious assembly” without a permit. The action became an international incident when it was reported last week on the Web site worldnetdaily.com.

The Joneses assert that the county's action violates their rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion. Their story was picked up by conservative Web sites for days, then made it to CNN yesterday.

Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.

“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.

Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.

Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”

Wallar said that definition, which doesn't spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.

She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.

“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”

Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.

In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.

“We're in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.

“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold 'Em, Mommy and Me, 'Monday Night Football,' Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They're trying to take that away. We're not going to let it go.”

Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.

“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.

Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.

“Even though the county is saying it's about traffic and parking, it's a fake issue. It's a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.

According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say 'amen?' ” “Do you say 'praise the Lord?' ”

Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.

“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.

Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.

“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.

As of late yesterday, county Supervisor Greg Cox's office – which represents the area – reported having received 400 e-mail messages about the Joneses'situation. Wallar said her department has received hundreds of e-mails and phone calls as well.

Broyles said he's been fielding media calls nonstop.

“It's been hard to do anything else but to handle the phone calls and media interviews,” he said. “It's been crazy, back to back to back to back.”

Good to hear they relented

walkthaplank that was my point. So I guess the darn Jews... uh I mean Bible thumpers (read my previous post here) were the victims after all. That is what i figured. There is also a neighbor involved most likely. My original post stands junker.

Once again, the thumpers prevail, through lying and deceit, the issue is traffic, someones car got dinged. if as he says they are using the parking lot he owns, then why were they parking on the street blocking driveways,if its just five or six cars as they say.... just like playing the race card, or the anti semetic card, they are playing the religous persecution card, when its clearly not a issue, its just a traffic issue..one can only imagine the neighbors plight living next store to a bunch of screaming holy rollers....