Means Test and Secured Debt Questions

[kristineco]

Hey y'all I have some questions that have been swimming around in my head and want some assistance in helping me through these shark and jelly fish infested waters.

How has "household" been defined for the means test? I have heard many different interpretations on this one.

How does the schedule Creditors Holding Secured Claims work? I am confused about "amount of unsecured claim if any". If my first mortgage is $181000 and my second mortgage is $109000 and the house is worth $235000 is there any amount of unsecured claim and what is the secured claim in the first place....$181,000 and $109,000? Confusing to me.
Filing pro se so don't have attorney to ask. Also no attorneys in my area taking on new BK clients!

Filed 03/13/06
341 Meeting 04/19/06

[Minnymouth]

Filing pro se can be very dangerous if your not sure of what your doing, or have lots of assets that you want to salvage.....

Secured creditors are like home, auto that is secured by property.... (like home/auto with liens against them).... if you don't pay they take it.....

Unsecured creditors are credit cards mostly..... no liens against them, just signature credit loans.

On your home if you have 2 mortgages, both are secured by the land/home.....

"Household" usually defines furniture, applicances, personal belongings. This is always figured at garage sale prices since it is all used merchandise.

Now antiques and collector items must be valued at full value if sold as collectables.

[SinkingFast]

Just an FYI that we picked up during our Consult yesterday,..............

In the Court here, EVERY Pro Se filer's New Law BK Petition has been dismissed.

The Court tells Pro Se filers there's something wrong with their petitions, evidently not even indicating what the problem is. The Court gives them 45 days to correct the issues. The Pro Se filers don't know what's wrong or how to fix it. Their 45 days expire, and their petitons get dismissed.

Also, BK petitions are being looked at with the lowest repay level scrutiny. There's no $100-$166 per month range. It's the flat $100/month, $6000 over 5 years.

The Court here is actively working to push anyone and everyone they can into Ch 13.

[Minnymouth]

I kind of expected that on the pro se filers......
The courts are tired of cases being rescheduled because pro se filers don't know what to do in bankruptcy.... It is bogging down the court system with rescheduling.
This will force pro se filers to obtain an attorney so that paperwork is filed correctly.

If you don't KNOW what the Court wants - you can't produce it..... and most pro se filers do not know.

Am not surprised about this issue.....

[Minnymouth]

Also, under the new laws, they (Trustees) are supposed to put everyone they can in a Chapter 13 plan..... IF POSSIBLE.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Just an FYI that we picked up during our Consult yesterday,..............

In the Court here, EVERY Pro Se filer's New Law BK Petition has been dismissed.

The Court tells Pro Se filers there's something wrong with their petitions, evidently not even indicating what the problem is. The Court gives them 45 days to correct the issues. The Pro Se filers don't know what's wrong or how to fix it. Their 45 days expire, and their petitons get dismissed.

Also, BK petitions are being looked at with the lowest repay level scrutiny. There's no $100-$166 per month range. It's the flat $100/month, $6000 over 5 years.
The Court here is actively working to push anyone and everyone they can into Ch 13.

Such a waste Not only does this do the obvious in preventing a fresh start for debtors but to go into a chapter 13 and pay back 6000 on what could be 10 to 20 times that in debt isn't even worth it for the creditors. Too much work for too small an amount.

[kristineco]

Pro Se and dismissal

Hi everyone i figure that if my case gets dismissed i will get an attorney and file again because by then my house will be in foreclosure. Had an almost nervous breakdown today worrying about all this crap and have decided to just go with the flow whatever it may be.

On Pacer for my district, trustee and filing month of March there are a ton of pro se filers. Don't know why but i think it may be the new cost to retain an attorney and file. Plus attorneys not taking on new filers.

It will work out for the best no matter what happens.

Kris

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Hi everyone i figure that if my case gets dismissed i will get an attorney and file again because by then my house will be in foreclosure. Had an almost nervous breakdown today worrying about all this crap and have decided to just go with the flow whatever it may be.

On Pacer for my district, trustee and filing month of March there are a ton of pro se filers. Don't know why but i think it may be the new cost to retain an attorney and file. Plus attorneys not taking on new filers.

It will work out for the best no matter what happens.

Kris

It sounds a bit weird to have the attitude of, oh well if it gets dismissed, then I'll just do it right the second time. As minny said the courts are getting tired of these pro se mistakes and a dismissed case is presumed a bad faith filer under current law. Your second filing will result in the presumption that you are filing in bad faith with a limited automatic stay and you will have to rebut the presumption. No one wants to go through this once let alone twice. Once your creditors get word your case was dismissed they will all sue you.


I also just noticed that you already filed:
"Filed 03/13/06
341 Meeting 04/19/06"

It might be a little late to have major questions such as home equity. Godspeed kristineco!

[kristineco]

Gee Thanks Fool I am trying to have a positive attitude. Yes i already filed and yes i already have a 341 meeting scheduled............so I am trying to prepare myself mentally for the worst and how i would handle it. There are many things in life for which we have no control and this is one of them for me. I am only speaking for myself. I sincerely think that i am doing it "right" this time because what is "right" for one person may not be for another. If there are things that need to be corrected after my 341 by all means I will do it. If i need to get a lawyer then by all means i will do it. But i am 50,000 upside down on my mortgages and it is due to having to buy a house very quickly to rescue my stepdaughter from an abusive situation in another state.
The child protective services in that city would not believe there was abuse going on and so we were gearing up for a custody fight with her father and needed to provide a "suitable" place for her to live.

So I have a plethora of dignity about why i am filing BK.

No kidding once my creditors get word my case is dismissed they will all sue me. I am just laying out my plan for if things do not go as expected and how i will handle it.


Have a wonderful day!

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Sorry kris, didn't mean to come across the way I did with all of these issues. Just was trying to make a statement (wrong attitude I used ) on why it's important to dot your I's and cross your T's with the new laws.

Best of luck to ya and please keep us posted. We're here to help!

Good luck to ya!

[SinkingFast]

I didn't realize you'd filed when I posted my comments either Kris.

I wish you God Speed!! Properly filed paperwork, A reasonable Trustee, and an Understanding Judge!!

Keep us all advised about the progress of your mental state and your case.

We're here to help in any way we can!!

[alh]

Just an FYI that we picked up during our Consult yesterday,..............

Also, BK petitions are being looked at with the lowest repay level scrutiny. There's no $100-$166 per month range. It's the flat $100/month, $6000 over 5 years.

The Court here is actively working to push anyone and everyone they can into Ch 13.

So are they just ignoring the specifics of the new law? Not saying they can't do that, but that would seem to be something that could be challenged.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

So are they just ignoring the specifics of the new law? Not saying they can't do that, but that would seem to be something that could be challenged.

I bet if a debtor owing 60k with $150 left over at the end of the month challenged this the court would deny the US Trustee motion. Between administrative costs and legal fees alone to be paid from the plan the creditors would probably see between 3000 & 4000 by the end of the plan. Just doesn't seem worth it to anyone excpet the lawyer and chapter 13 trustee. The creditors probably wouldn't even spend the time filing their claims. It's probably not the worst thing for a debtor to payback 10 cents on the dollar to avoid the 707b hearing.

[kristineco]

Had 341 Today

Well i had my 341 today and it was going swimmingly until the trustee asked about my out of state exemption for my car. I had researched and researched it but it didn't matter to him that i knew the law. He objected. I am and . He asked me how i came up with a figure of $9100 for exemption on my car. I said $3500 for automobile, $5000 for unused homestead exemption and $600 for wildcard. It was like he was mad because i knew the laws. My partner says i should have stood up to him on that one because i knew the laws. Frankly, i was too intimidated.

Oh well i want to thank you guys for your support. This aint gonna be as easy as i wished. Seems like being uninformed works in your favor. What a joke.

Now i know i should have gotten a lawyer, but at the time i didn't know they were cheaper than 1600 in my area. That was too much to pay at the time for i was trying to save my house so my daughter could go to same school.

[SinkingFast]

We're in that same position. Recently moved having to use "Out of State" exemptions as well. And we coulda easily be standing in your place with the Court here. The Trustee and the Judge looking at Statues numbers from another State, scatching their heads, and saying something is wrong with the way we'd filed. In your case, it was how you applied your exemptions.

That's the main reason we went for an attny. The attny we chose is gonna consult with an attny in the old State about the Exemptions. Even tho I had the Statutes printed out for him, some of the verbage was kinda ambiguous. The attny also said, the way the Statute is worded and how it's actually applied may not necessarily be the same thing.

Here's hoping that the little outburst in Court was just momentary frustration on their part. Maybe once they settle down, and think about it, and maybe even check out your Exemptions on their own, they'll realize you've done it correctly. Could be you just caught them off guard with out of state Exemptions.