Collection Agency

[AutoTechInSTL]

OK.. just asking one simple question of which I'm unable to find an answer to.

Is a third party collection agency actually entitled to my money?

Here's the story...

I had a CHASE BANK shell mastercard with a credit limit of roughly $6500
I charged and paid responsibly for several years, for which it is now a moot point. Hard times hit.. lost job.. spent savings going to school and trying a new career in I.T. (and failed).. finally took up wrenching cars again, despite my chiropractor's best advise... blah blah blah... Basically end of story is had 4 credit cards charged up.. wasn't able to pay for several months..

Between late fees, interest, etc it got so rediculous I just stopped paying them alltogther.. when I was able to pay made arrangement through CC counseling to pay them down.. then wife got laid off, couldn't make payments anymore.

Ok now here we are over two years later. Chase SOLD my debt (per comments in credit report) to Colonial Credit Corporation.

Gamache and Myers Atty office recently (Friday) served me a "PLURIES SUMMONS" which has a court date of next monday. Not even enough time to get an appointment with a lawyer. They are suing me for just over $10,000 ($8000 they claim I owe plus court/lawyer fees, etc). They claim they were hired by Colonial Credit to collect the money, which makes them now.. 4th party collectors?

I've talked to them and they refuse ANYTHING less than a total 100% payment, and they also mentioned they are handling another CC of mine for almost $4000 and they plan to sue for that after this first judgement is made against me.

On the phone, I was discouraged from actually going to court and they basically told me I need to cough up all the money or (put in nice terms) my life would be made a living hell.

Now I'm not doubting that I owe the money, I just don't feel that this "law office" and/or colonial credit should be entitled to money I owe someone else. I also doubt the amount they claim I owe.

So... if there is anyone who has been in my shoes.. or is a law professional, can you answer.. if I go to court with this, what can I expect? Do they actually have the right to sue me and win? And if they do win what next? I don't have $10k to hand over.. will my wages get garnished?

[SinkingFast]

To help us help you,............. Tell us what State you live in.

Seems like you shoulda had more notice than this that you were being sued. But the lead time varies State to State.

One thing you definitely wanna do is be in Court on that day. If you aren't present, the Judge will most likely issue a Summary Judgement against you in favor of the Plaintiffs.

You can use the arguement that you did not have sufficient notice to prepare a proper defense. Considering you only just recieved notice within days of the actual Court date. But that arguement will totally be dependent upon the rules where you live. Maybe the Creditor is allowed to "advertise" in the newspaper and they had already done that.

Lots of variables. Many dependent on your particular State Laws.

[AutoTechInSTL]

I apologize... I live in Missouri.

From what I understand a pluries summons is issued when they try to summons you multiple times and could not find you.

My problem is I have not been hiding from anyone. Yes I did move recently (4 months ago) but I don't understand why my address change wouldn't be in public record, as utilities and postal service has been transferred over. Seems like it may be an excuse to give me little time for preparations, but maybe I'm just being paranoid.

[SinkingFast]

http://www.fair-debt-collection.com/...-State.html#26

Several websites said the same things.

[AutoTechInSTL]

Last payment made just over 3 years ago.

I feel pretty sure about getting a continuance, the thing is... I'm not sure if I want to. I really don't think they have sufficient proof, and they are banking on the fact that I either don't show up, or the fact that I'm a blithering idiot and don't ask them to show sufficient proof. I don't want to give THEM any more time to gather it all up.

I asked them (the lawfirm suing me) what I would expect at court... he simply told me I would meet with their lawyer and he would have me sign a piece of paper, giving them a default judgment. I asked him if there was any way to avoid court and he said yeah don't go! Not going to court would be the same as losing, and I'm going to lose anyway!

hehehe I'm going to ask they show proof that I originally opened the account. Then proof that CHASE acquired my account when they bought the bank that the CC was originally under. Then proof that the CA bought the debt from CHASE. Then proof that I actually owe the amount they say. AND LASTLY proof that I'm obligated to pay THEY lawers' fees and court fees.

[JeepMom]

The lawyers fees are in the fine print of the cc. I would go to court, ask for a continuance then seek a lawyer to file bankruptcy.

[FraggleRock]

Maybe if call a lawyer before you head into court he could tell you something?

If you file for a continuation will they still allow you to file BK? If you file that would put an automatic stay on the collections and stop court preceedings I believe.

[GoingDown]

Last payment made just over 3 years ago.

I feel pretty sure about getting a continuance, the thing is... I'm not sure if I want to. I really don't think they have sufficient proof, and they are banking on the fact that I either don't show up, or the fact that I'm a blithering idiot and don't ask them to show sufficient proof. I don't want to give THEM any more time to gather it all up.

I asked them (the lawfirm suing me) what I would expect at court... he simply told me I would meet with their lawyer and he would have me sign a piece of paper, giving them a default judgment. I asked him if there was any way to avoid court and he said yeah don't go! Not going to court would be the same as losing, and I'm going to lose anyway!

hehehe I'm going to ask they show proof that I originally opened the account. Then proof that CHASE acquired my account when they bought the bank that the CC was originally under. Then proof that the CA bought the debt from CHASE. Then proof that I actually owe the amount they say. AND LASTLY proof that I'm obligated to pay THEY lawers' fees and court fees.

I'm probably too late to be of any help in this matter, but here it goes anyways. What the lawyer is talking about having you sign a piece of paper if you appear in court is called a "stipulation". DON'T SIGN IT!!!! That automatically grants them the judgment for everything they are asking. Make them get it the hard way by actually filing an ANSWER in writing to their summons and complaint, filing it with the court, and serving it upon the attorney. Then make sure you appear in court and fight this. Make a motion for continuance and a motion for discovery to ask to see the documents to prove exactly what you owe and whether you owe them anything at all.

The next step is to make yourself as judgment proof as possible. Unfortunately, if you work for someone else, there is not much that you can do to stop wage garnishment except filing bankruptcy. But clear out your checking accounts, savings accounts, cash in stocks, bonds, etc. Judgment creditors love to sieze things like that and it will be their first move after they get a judgment against you.

[dscurlock]

judgement

I apologize... I live in Missouri.

From what I understand a pluries summons is issued when they try to summons you multiple times and could not find you.

My problem is I have not been hiding from anyone. Yes I did move recently (4 months ago) but I don't understand why my address change wouldn't be in public record, as utilities and postal service has been transferred over. Seems like it may be an excuse to give me little time for preparations, but maybe I'm just being paranoid.

wow...my wife and I have been buried in debt for sometime, and myself
longer, no one has ever offered to take us to court or anything, except
their typical phone calls and collection letters...I guess whos to say that wont happen in the future if we do not get this taken care of...

[miss puff]

Hey Autotech, just wondering how this turned out.

[no_it_all]

A motion or affirmative defense claiming that the service of the summons was defective <might> have helped. Actually, it still might help.

[no_it_all]

<huge honking snip>
The next step is to make yourself as judgment proof as possible. Unfortunately, if you work for someone else, there is not much that you can do to stop wage garnishment except filing bankruptcy. But clear out your checking accounts, savings accounts, cash in stocks, bonds, etc. Judgment creditors love to sieze things like that and it will be their first move after they get a judgment against you.

One honking huge problem with judgements are that <usually> they last for years and years. So making oneself "judgement" proof is actually almost impossible, since you would have to be judgement proof for twenty years or so....Some judgements will survive even a bankruptcy.

[GoingDown]

One honking huge problem with judgements are that <usually> they last for years and years. So making oneself "judgement" proof is actually almost impossible, since you would have to be judgement proof for twenty years or so....Some judgements will survive even a bankruptcy.

In Arizona judgments die after only 5 years unless they renew them. It will take longer than that for it to fall off your credit report. From what I've heard from other people here in Arizona, most debt collectors don't bother to renew the judgment if they don't get paid anything during the first 5 year period. And I've also heard that most debt collectors don't have the right kind of system to effectively track the judgment renewal dates and keep up with the filing requirements to file a timely renewal.

The judgment itself won't survive bankruptcy usually, but the recorded lien, or a portion therof, might survive BK. However, with the judgment essentially avoided and a large portion of the lien removed, it is highly doubtful that a debt collector will keep trying to renew the lien with a now defunct judgment. I think someone could even contest it on this basis.

Being judgment proof for longer periods of time is not necessarily impossible. You rent stuff instead of buying it-- rent an apartment, lease a car, rent to own big screen t.v.'s, etc. You work at temp jobs or find a debtor sympathetic boss (usually in the following fields of employment: construction, remodelling, janitorial, landscaping, etc.), or you wise up and become self-employed where you are the master of your own destiny and fate. And most importantly, you use cash and money orders and pre-paid VISA cards to pay for everything. When you do get paid, you get a paper check and then cash it instead of depositing it into any checking account.

Other options people might think about are possibly moving to debtor friendly states such as Texas, where they can't garnish your wages. Other states have generous exemption amounts so they can own some significant assets. Still other states have very short and defined periods of time for how long a judgment can be collected before it becomes defunct. I think there is at least one state with a 7 year period for judgments and after that the judgment is worthless.

[no_it_all]

While reading the local paper I ran across an article about an individual that was recently ordered to pay $219 per month to satisfy a judgement that was rendered in 1992 (FYI..Maine). Original judgement was for about 400K, and now has ballooned to just over 900K (interest accrues on non-paid judgements). Reason that this was news, and in the paper, was because the individual is now just a regular Joe Lunchbox and making about 25K per year.

It did take almost 15 years to begin collecting on this judgement, but as of right now, they are.

Agree that being judgement proof is not impossible, but I do believe it to be highly improbable, especially if one plans on ever accumulating any assests.

I think the fact that a Judgement lien against real property cannot be moved to another property is fairly moot, since once the subject property that has the lien is sold, transferred or re-financed, the lien is automatically paid off (if there is enough equity).

Arizona does have a 5 year SOL on Judgements, but all Arizona requires for a creditor to tack on an additional five years is a request to do so. As you pointed out, if a creditor wanted to, they could make a request every five years and the judgement would never go away.

Although Texas allows no wage garnishments, their SOL on judgements is a minimum of ten years, and is renewable. In addition, the creditor can legally charge 10 percent per year for the unpaid debt.

I suppose that if one is willing to move away from job, family and friends, etc and work "under the table" and basically go underground, yes, they can be judgement proof. It just isn't very practical advice to say that being "judgement proof" is a realistic option for most.

For those that are considering it as an option, I suggest a quick view of the Paladian-Press.com web site..especially their book section

[GoingDown]

"While reading the local paper I ran across an article about an individual that was recently ordered to pay $219 per month to satisfy a judgement that was rendered in 1992 (FYI..Maine). Original judgement was for about 400K, and now has ballooned to just over 900K (interest accrues on non-paid judgements). Reason that this was news, and in the paper, was because the individual is now just a regular Joe Lunchbox and making about 25K per year."

$400,000 for a judgment is mighty high for a consumer debt, especially in 1992! It makes me wonder if this was a judgment for some kind of restitution-- maybe he was convicted of manslaughter and the grieving family obtained a wrongful death judgment against him? In that case, he's screwed! It would also explain why the judgment creditor was still pursuing him after all this time... they want to get revenge!

But if it was for a consumer debt, he should have filed BK about 10 years ago on it. And for now, he should contact an ACLU attorney or something like that and appeal this court order because it establishes a de facto debtor's prison when this practice has been abolished.

"It did take almost 15 years to begin collecting on this judgement, but as of right now, they are."

That's rare. One of my friends had a car loan deficiency judgment against him in the amount of about $2000, and after 5 years of not being able to collect it, and by the way they didn't even try very hard to collect it, it expired after 5 years and they didn't even attempt to renew it. So this does happen. Over 80% of judgments are NEVER collected.

"Agree that being judgement proof is not impossible, but I do believe it to be highly improbable, especially if one plans on ever accumulating any assests."

Well, not everyone is consumed with acquiring more and more assets which they inevitably have to leave behind when they die. Like my uncle once said, "the more things you get, the more people try to take them away from you." He was a farmer, by the way, and lost everything he owned due to a drought.

"I think the fact that a Judgement lien against real property cannot be moved to another property is fairly moot, since once the subject property that has the lien is sold, transferred or re-financed, the lien is automatically paid off (if there is enough equity)."

Ah, but not every debtor seeking BK owns real estate BEFORE they file BK. But they might acquire it after BK.

"Arizona does have a 5 year SOL on Judgements, but all Arizona requires for a creditor to tack on an additional five years is a request to do so. As you pointed out, if a creditor wanted to, they could make a request every five years and the judgement would never go away."

{See comment about this matter above}

"Although Texas allows no wage garnishments, their SOL on judgements is a minimum of ten years, and is renewable. In addition, the creditor can legally charge 10 percent per year for the unpaid debt."

A person could move to Texas, rent a house, lease a car, and get a job and there wouldn't be too much debt collectors could do to them.

"I suppose that if one is willing to move away from job, family and friends, etc and work "under the table" and basically go underground, yes, they can be judgement proof. It just isn't very practical advice to say that being "judgement proof" is a realistic option for most."

With the rising tide of illegal immigration, it is rather easy for someone to go underground and get paid under the table and blend into the community, especially here in Arizona.

"For those that are considering it as an option, I suggest a quick view of the Paladian-Press.com web site..especially their book section"

Never heard of it. What's it about?