Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as BKForum.com and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do:
BKFORUM.com (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto BKForum.com you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.


Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of BKforum.com.

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on BKForum.com are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

About to go boldly with advances <12 mos old.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • About to go boldly with advances <12 mos old.

    I learned here that the standard rule is to let balance transfers and advances "age" to be at least 12 months old before filing in order to stay off of creditors' radar and not get hit with APs for denial of discharge.

    But I'm already getting sued and have considered all the possibilities and decided I will take the risk.

    - A business CC, $7200 in 3 balance transfers made in 9/2009. Still making minimum payments
    - My business line of credit, $3,250 advance taken 9/2009. Made four payments before I stopped. $22K total balance on this one.
    - A personal line of credit, $3,600 advance taken 8/2009. $7,200 total balance on this one. Once again, 4 payments after the last advance.
    - Another personal iine of credit $1,400 advance taken 5/2009 (and $6,500 taken 3/2009)... this is the total balance. 6 payments were made after the last advance. This one will be 12 months old by the time I file.

    [Not listing the institutions here to maintain a little anonymity and not taunt the giants.]

    All the advances were deposited into my business checking account... just as I've been doing for years. On the downside, my 2009 business income wound up coming out very low. (Did I have prospects and hopes? Absolutely!)

    Anyway, I AM GOING TO FILE in May or June (making the most recent sins 8 or 9 months old) and see what happens. My attorney says that balance transfers are much less of a problem than advances, and that as a non-wage earner, it's tougher for them to prove I should have known I wouldn't be paying. And, of course, that APs aren't cheap for the creditor either. Bottom line, "We'll see."

    My personal expectation is that I might have to throw some of them a few dollars to make them go away. But I've got about 200K of unsecured debt, qualify income wise for a Chapter 7, and my house is under water (so I can use California System 2 exemptions) now. I've decided it's time to get on with my life.

    I'm sharing this as an opportunity for the scholars here to analyze and predict. I promise to follow up and tell you how it really goes... My decision is made, but I think adding a real story of real AP risk and results might be quite useful... information is power.
    Last edited by keptdigging; 04-15-2010, 12:46 AM.
    12/2009 Stopped paying CCs; 3/10 1st suit;
    8/2010 finally served; No Asset 7 filed. 11 mos since last bal xfer
    9/22/10 60 day club; 9/24/10 report of no distr; 11/23/10 DISCHARGED

  • #2
    I'm in Ca. and my attorney tells me to wait also..I've been waiting. Aug 2008 last payments on some biggies. No suits yet but the wait is aweful..My life is on hold. I need and wait to file really soon...I think I've waited long enough...
    Please keep us posted and good luck. I think you'll be fine

    Comment


    • #3
      Pretty much in the same boat. 25 cards $186k CC debt, the majority of my sins were in 2007-2008, stopped paying early 2009, waited until just before I figured a lawsuit was coming, and filed 1/23/10 Ca system 2 was able to exempt everything. 25 days until discharge cant get here soon enough
      Stopped Paying CC's 2/2009. Retained Attorney 1/10/2010 Filed 1/23/2010. Discharged 5/19/10 $187K CC, $240K 2nd,$417K 1st, No asset Ch-7

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by albacore44 View Post
        Pretty much in the same boat. 25 cards $186k CC debt, the majority of my sins were in 2007-2008, stopped paying early 2009, waited until just before I figured a lawsuit was coming, and filed 1/23/10 Ca system 2 was able to exempt everything. 25 days until discharge cant get here soon enough
        Wow Albacore how does one get that much Credit? I will be filing end of this month. 32k total of credit and Heloc. 53k Boat (magic deck boat). And a 100k upside down house. Can't wait till im over this mess. Gonna miss the boat this summer though. Maybe they won't take it right away hehe. I'm in S. Cal too
        Filed: 4-26-2010 341: 6-15-2010

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bk442 View Post
          Wow Albacore how does one get that much Credit? I will be filing end of this month. 32k total of credit and Heloc. 53k Boat (magic deck boat). And a 100k upside down house. Can't wait till im over this mess. Gonna miss the boat this summer though. Maybe they won't take it right away hehe. I'm in S. Cal too
          well stupidly i was prolonging the agony transfering balances between cards. sorry to hear about the boat, would love to have one of those to play at the river, or some innocent sight seeing in Copper Canyon. I was able to keep my 32' Weekend Warrior and Quads under Ca system 2 since they are paid for.
          Stopped Paying CC's 2/2009. Retained Attorney 1/10/2010 Filed 1/23/2010. Discharged 5/19/10 $187K CC, $240K 2nd,$417K 1st, No asset Ch-7

          Comment


          • #6
            Yeah some of us got really really good at prolonging that agony. I am told by my attorney that because my total unsecured is over 200K, the UST will be sitting in on my 341. The obvious question is "How can you have so much debt and not have serious assets?" Behold the miracle of balance transfers.

            My attorney didn't seem particularly concerned and I have good records. But there could be some drama ahead.

            It seems we're all having interesting lives.
            12/2009 Stopped paying CCs; 3/10 1st suit;
            8/2010 finally served; No Asset 7 filed. 11 mos since last bal xfer
            9/22/10 60 day club; 9/24/10 report of no distr; 11/23/10 DISCHARGED

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by keptdigging View Post
              Yeah some of us got really really good at prolonging that agony. I am told by my attorney that because my total unsecured is over 200K, the UST will be sitting in on my 341. The obvious question is "How can you have so much debt and not have serious assets?" Behold the miracle of balance transfers.

              My attorney didn't seem particularly concerned and I have good records. But there could be some drama ahead.

              It seems we're all having interesting lives.
              I was told that too about the UST, but it dident happen. My attorneys wife said the UST passes on his clients, because they dont want to take my attorney on since he has won every challenge from the UST and they dont like the embarassment.
              Stopped Paying CC's 2/2009. Retained Attorney 1/10/2010 Filed 1/23/2010. Discharged 5/19/10 $187K CC, $240K 2nd,$417K 1st, No asset Ch-7

              Comment


              • #8
                At the risk of bumping up an old thread, thought I'd close the loop.
                I wound up finding my coin collection was worth more than I thought, and decided to sell and spend it down and try to be a no-asset case. Filed when I finally got served by a lawsuit.

                By the time I filed, I had 11 months or more on all of my balance transfers. Largest was $7,000 US Bank at 11 months old. But I "cheated" on this one: kept making minimum payments until a month before I filed.

                The other 11-12 month old Advances were with B of A and Chase (business line); 3 or 4K each, though in the case of Chase the total on the line was $20K. Chase had sued and they were the ones that forced me to file. (In general, Amex and Chase sued quickly, no one else did at all.)

                Once I filed I did not hear a peep from any of my creditors. On $250K of unsecured debt. 341 and discharge could not have gone smoother.

                For the education of others here, I wish I had filed at 8 months... it would have been a more interesting data point. I think in general we on this board worry too much about CCs and LOCs generating APs. I should add that my attorney wasn't particularly concerned at 8 months (and she worried plenty about things that never happened.)

                I also think it's important that I was represented. Why bother threatening an AP to an attorney who knows you won't follow through with the expense for low odds? She'll just call your bluff.

                But I also need to thank the people here for sharing--I was thinking it was fine to file as long as I had 90 days since my last charges. This board saved me from attempting that.
                12/2009 Stopped paying CCs; 3/10 1st suit;
                8/2010 finally served; No Asset 7 filed. 11 mos since last bal xfer
                9/22/10 60 day club; 9/24/10 report of no distr; 11/23/10 DISCHARGED

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for coming back and letting us know.

                  The 12 month rule is the "hyper" conservative length of time. I bet you would have been fine at 8 months, and even 6 months.

                  The 12 month window is best when the use of credit was questionable, i.e. $10,000 cash advance at a Casino. In the normal circumstances (cash advances for living money, balance transfers etc), and assuming some minimum payments were made, 6-9 months is appropriate for larger balances ($3K+),

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Was hoping you could apply these 'rules' to our case.

                    Looking at filing around April. Last CC (and Bill Me Later) charges were in Dec. So April would be outside 90 day window. Charges on all cards were less than $200 (for food, clothes, minor car repair).

                    There was a balance transfer on one card in Nov of $1350 and that same card was the one we put all the food, household expenses (like clothes, prescriptions etc) which we use to pay in full but then switched to min payment so card went up quick (about $4k over 2 months), again last charges for everything was in Dec. (Dec was trail-off period).

                    The Bill Me Later (credit via paypal) did have about a dozen charges between Nov-Dec which were mostly for Christmas all of them totaled less than $1100.

                    Have been making minimum payments on all of them (was going to do that for Jan, Feb and 50% pymts in March).

                    If we filed in April what is the risk of AP from Bill Me Later? or the one card we did the balance transfer on? (also highest balance card at $6k)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      the main objective of this rule and reason why the court developed this special remedy was based on what if a debtor goes on a "spending spree" before filing bankruptcy. this is the way the courts will view this from here on in.

                      those that are targeted, it is usually for the charging of "luxury" items and not medical expenses or food. (although, nowadays many creditors will try anything for a penny). these type of charges would be ...well we can use the example of scuguy77's bill me later charges. that would be indeed qualify as a bit questionable.

                      it also depends on where and when you file. i know when we did, where we filed, the trustee we had would not ever entertain any debt incurred outside the 90 day perimeter, although, i have heard now they are beginning to be a bit more open to the creditors, especially in 13's where the trustee has something to gain. (the only reason i knew this information was it was voluntarily relayed to us by our atty who worked with the district and knew their view on that matter).

                      we personally didn't experience this problem although we had over 200k worth of debt including much of it cc...all medical expenses. and, we were asked why we had so much cc debt. i produced the medical bills and not one word was said. other than how are you feeling now. (i think she had a heart actually).

                      my point is, it will mostly depend on what the item was, not even so much when. if you had to take you're child to the er bleeding, i doubt even the most heartless creditor would win the AP.
                      8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        thank you for your reply.

                        we would be filing N. CA

                        any particular item charged on bill-me-later was less than $300 (most were under $150) its just in aggregate over the two month period it was about $1000.

                        the issue with timing is trying to weigh not wanting to get sued (it would be about 3-4 months come April) and dealing with back-taxes (which right now we have no bills yet but once amendments are filed will) and depending how fast taxing authorities are with issuing bills don't want to go and setup a pymt plan only to file a month or 2 later (though not sure if they'll just wait)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          i really don't think you will be getting sued that quickly and even if you did or do, once your bk is discharged you would just file a motion to vacate the judgements and they would gone anyway. so that should not be a reason to wait.

                          the 1k worth of what maybe you and i would not consider luxury items, tho, could be a problem. so i would wait and make certain they are beyond the 90 day period. the creditor will/could argue you knew in nov and dec you were going to be filing therefore, it was charged with the intention of never paying. even if you went through the trouble of setting up a payment plan for your taxes, it may be a hassle for you a bit, but shouldn't swing your filing date.

                          again, i would say it's the bill be later that could be concerning. the very worse thing you'd have to pay it, it's very difficult to prove "intentional" fraud and the burden is on the creditor to do so.
                          8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            thank you.

                            hmm, if we file in April/May how do they know we knew in nov/dec we might file? (though I see what you mean by burden of proof would swing to them post 90 days) and for $1k who knows...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              oh, you'd be surprised.

                              even our own personal experience was we had to wait two years because we needed (wanted really), to establish residency in our new state to take advantage of this states exemption wildcard. although, we didn't plan a strategy prior to when we knew we had to physically live here for the 2 years to accomplish our goal. although we didn't have to worry very much about using our charge cards really, i was more concerned dodging creditors to prevent them from suing us.

                              we virtually went underground for those two years, nothing in our names at the time. i know not everyone can just up and leave, as we did after being in the same home for over 30 years. we left no forwarding address for the house we lived in for over 30 years, and to further confuse the situation, every neighbor we spoke with prior to our leaving, we told each person a different state and part of the country. we knew the possibilities of a creditor eventually searching for us by going door to door was very real. (we found out a year or two later a few creditors actually did).

                              we were lucky because some of the creditors could have petitioned the court to grant a judgment based on the fact that they could not locate us, and, although, they are, by law suppose to send and give proper notification, that's pretty difficult to do when one has no idea where to look! for some reason, and we have no clue why, not a one them opted to proceed, to this day we have no clue why, not even one account was sent to collections, for that matter.

                              really, when you think about it, most people know months before they are in trouble, the creditors know this. even if one loses there job unexpectedly, and one was living pay check to pay check, you get the idea i'm sure.
                              8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                              Comment

                              Unconfigured Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X