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341 meeting now my mortgage and car are in the payment plan

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  • 341 meeting now my mortgage and car are in the payment plan

    Before I went to the 341 meeting my attorney and I sat down and figured out my plan payment which was to include my arrears on my mortgage. Which was going to be 600 a month. So that was going to come out of payroll deduction which I had asked for it to come out of my pension that I get monthly. The reason being i didn't want my employer to be made aware of my financial difficulty which really was not my fault do to Chase making sure they waited to send a NOD and Trustee Sale before they said I qualified for a Hamp.

    Anyway they did send my employer the garnishment notice and my attorney couldn't answer me why.

    We went to the 341 meeting and the first thing the Trustee said to my attorney is how many times do I have to tell you and the firm that all secured creditors go into the plan. I then raised my hand and said I am confused the US Bankruptcy Code states if the auto loan is less than 910 days old it remains outside of the plan payment and if current on mortgage which I am does the same. He said I understand that you don't understand so let me put it this way it will be in the payment plan because I said.

    So ok. I shut up after that. All got taken care of in three min or less.

    So now instead of my payment plan being 600.00 a month the plan is now 2600.00.

    So what this means to me is. If the plan had stayed at 600.00 amonth for 5 years my cost to the trustee percentage 10% would have been 3200.

    Now its 2600.00 and approx 10% is 12,000-15,000 over the course of 5 years.

    The whole reason for filing a chapter 13 was not to have my home sold from underneath me and not get a modification that was going to add on legal fees, foreclosure fees, attorney fees, trustee fees and the arrears tacked on the the back of the loan plus inteterest on top of that.

    So what I see is that I end up paying the trustee and lawyer that I retained approx 15,000 to them instead. How is this helping me or am I not understanding this at all. My attorney is no help because he just can't answer all his e-mails because he is just so busy.

    I might as well had done all this pro se.

  • #2
    It's a district by district thing. Some attorneys know this (my first didn't; my current one does). I'm fighting to stay in Ch7 because if I'm forced into 13, it's a $35000 percentage to the trustee plus paying 100% back of all unsecured and secured debt. I would not be able to do a 13 under any circumstances.

    Comment


    • #3
      We are paying $174K over the 5 years. Our debt (mortgage payments, car, IRS) is $141K. Our atty is taking $3500 or something like that. I can't figure out where the rest is going except to the trust which would be over $17K. So I guess they really take 10% wow. I guess it doesn't matter though because our payment would be the same either way right, but the trustee gets paid instead of the unsecureds.
      Filed Chapter 13 on 3-31-10. 341 completed 5/20/10
      $2900+ a month 0% payback to unsecured creditors
      Discharged 6/30/2015

      Comment


      • #4
        Even though many Districts absolutely required all secured debt to be paid "inside" the plan and "through" the Trustee, you can Motion the court to allow payments outside the plan if you are current. There is no "910-day" plan payment rule at all.

        What many debtors, and attorneys, forget, is that the whole bankruptcy process is really the Trustee's (Office of the United States Trustee) show! The Court and Judge are just there to exert the equitable powers of the United States District Court in that jurisdiction.
        Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
        Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
        Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


        I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by val4747 View Post
          Before I went to the 341 meeting my attorney and I sat down and figured out my plan payment which was to include my arrears on my mortgage. Which was going to be 600 a month. So that was going to come out of payroll deduction which I had asked for it to come out of my pension that I get monthly. The reason being i didn't want my employer to be made aware of my financial difficulty which really was not my fault do to Chase making sure they waited to send a NOD and Trustee Sale before they said I qualified for a Hamp.

          Anyway they did send my employer the garnishment notice and my attorney couldn't answer me why.

          We went to the 341 meeting and the first thing the Trustee said to my attorney is how many times do I have to tell you and the firm that all secured creditors go into the plan. I then raised my hand and said I am confused the US Bankruptcy Code states if the auto loan is less than 910 days old it remains outside of the plan payment and if current on mortgage which I am does the same. He said I understand that you don't understand so let me put it this way it will be in the payment plan because I said.

          So ok. I shut up after that. All got taken care of in three min or less.

          So now instead of my payment plan being 600.00 a month the plan is now 2600.00.

          So what this means to me is. If the plan had stayed at 600.00 amonth for 5 years my cost to the trustee percentage 10% would have been 3200.

          Now its 2600.00 and approx 10% is 12,000-15,000 over the course of 5 years.

          The whole reason for filing a chapter 13 was not to have my home sold from underneath me and not get a modification that was going to add on legal fees, foreclosure fees, attorney fees, trustee fees and the arrears tacked on the the back of the loan plus inteterest on top of that.

          So what I see is that I end up paying the trustee and lawyer that I retained approx 15,000 to them instead. How is this helping me or am I not understanding this at all. My attorney is no help because he just can't answer all his e-mails because he is just so busy.

          I might as well had done all this pro se.
          I'm confused. If you have arrears, doesn't that mean that you're NOT current on your mortgage? You've contradicted yourself here.....
          Filed Chapter 13 on 2-28-10. 341 completed 4/14/10. Confirmed 5/14/10. Lien strip granted 2/2/11
          0% payback to unsecured creditors, 56 payments down, 4 to go....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by momofthree View Post
            I'm confused. If you have arrears, doesn't that mean that you're NOT current on your mortgage? You've contradicted yourself here.....
            I didn't catch it but momofthree is right. Almost all Districts that I know of won't allow "outside" the plan payments when you are in arrears. This is to protect you.
            Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
            Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
            Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


            I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

            Comment


            • #7
              341 meeting

              It is true if you are not current but I made mortgage payments to the trustees before the 341 meeting so that I would be current as far as the US Bankruptcy Code.

              The US Bankruptcy Code also says the car must be less than 910 days old to stay out of the plan. The reason is that if its older and you have a loan than you can cram down the value and the courts can set a lower the interest rates. That wouldn't work for me because I have a 2% percent loan and the courts can only lower it to 6.99. So that wouldn't be any help. It looks like I will now have a car loan going 5 years and I only had 3 left. Do not get it.

              My case is a little different than most. I got myself into this situation by waiting for Chase and the Obama Plan to help me out with my mortgage payment. I waited and did exactly what I was told by Chase. God was I stupid. I could have borrowed from someone and kept my payments current, but then Chase said they couldn't help me because I wasn't late.

              How can one be so stupid. My credit has gone down to the low 500's from 750-800's. I finally had to file because the only protection one has is the law for stopping the sale of the home. I did not Trust Chase. I have never seen anything like this in my life.

              I have a car payment and a mortgage and 4,200 in CC debt I stayed current with the CC debt. So I guess what I am saying is that I am really an idiot trying to get some help with this and than it backfires on me even more by the car and the mortgage being in the plan and the Trustee saying to me Let me help you understand because I said so. Really through me for a loop.

              If the laws very from district to district that means some one that is in my same shoes is not paying the trustee the same as me. I took the law to mean US Bankruptcy Codes period not it depends on where you are in the United States.

              Bottom line Chase says they do not have to follow the guidelines because there is now law we paid back the tarp. And the Trustee doesn't have to follow the codes.

              I didn't mean to confuse anyone I am simply trying to figure out if I was correct in the amount of money that the trustee will receive for his 10% fee. I wonder why its set up that way. Why can't it be a Federal job and they work for a salary.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by val4747 View Post
                The US Bankruptcy Code also says the car must be less than 910 days old to stay out of the plan.
                It doesn't state that anywhere in the Bankruptcy Code under Title 11, at least that I have read. I have dealt with a Chapter 13 Reorganization Plan, including several revisions. The necessity of something be paid "inside the plan and through the Trustee" is a local practice.

                For example, in the Florida, all items are paid inside the plan unless you motion the court to have it paid outside the plan. This is because the Region 21 Trustee (Office of the United States Trustee) determined that the local process will be that everything is included. You can only change this if you file a motion with the court and you are current.
                Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


                I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                  ...The necessity of something be paid "inside the plan and through the Trustee" is a local practice.

                  For example, in the Florida, all items are paid inside the plan unless you motion the court to have it paid outside the plan. This is because the Region 21 Trustee (Office of the United States Trustee) determined that the local process will be that everything is included. You can only change this if you file a motion with the court and you are current.
                  It sounds like this is what happened to the OP. If this is the case, the attorney should have known what the local practices and requirements are and advised the OP on what to do. I can imagine being upset with the trustee, but if it were me, I'd have to rip the attorney a new one for not being the expert he was hired to be.
                  DH laid off 3/08 | Last mortgage payment 12/09 | Filed Ch13 5/10 | Converted to Ch7 7/10 | 341 held 8/10 | AP filed by secured creditor 10/10 | Ch7 discharged & closed 11/10 | Foreclosure 10/2011

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well thank you for the answer. But, I guess I will have just get over it (car) The two years I paid before all this happened is just a waste of money. I don't know whether to motion for it to stay out of the plan, I am not trying to make waves with the trustee no matter what kind of response that I get from him, I am just besides my self with the fact that they will put the auto in the plan I will loose my great interest rate and end up paying a total of 7 years on a 4 year plan. Just does not make sense. For every motion that you file you also have to pay for that. It just seems that the relief that one seeks through the system is not relief at all. I guess this is the lesson one must learn the hard way. I will just suck it up and deal with it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm sorry this has turned out to be such a disappointment for you. I will admit that I am a bit worried about that myself. Is it too late to cancel your BK and work it out some other way?
                      DH laid off 3/08 | Last mortgage payment 12/09 | Filed Ch13 5/10 | Converted to Ch7 7/10 | 341 held 8/10 | AP filed by secured creditor 10/10 | Ch7 discharged & closed 11/10 | Foreclosure 10/2011

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wish I could start over and know what I know now. But, Chase wants the house bad. They make alot of money off these foreclosures. Especially when the government backs it up.

                        This house has been in the family since 1946. My husband passed away and he was the one that built this home. When he was alive he kept telling me if anything happens to him sell the house get rid of it. All these new homes being built around us, he kept saying who can afford these homes? I kept telling him well they get them with no money down interest only thats how. I am not saying all of them do it that way, but he saw this economic down turn coming.

                        I will make it through. I am just disgusted that every where you turn someone makes a piece of your action ($). It never use to be this way. I guess I will just get use to it.

                        I am not and did not live above my means. When you loose someone and the income goes with it. So you do what you got to do. If I was older I could reverse mortgage which is another rip off but, at least I wouldn't have to make payments and the bank would be paid off. I don't even have a ck acct anymore. Don't trust them. Now I understand what my grandparents meant, but, I was to young to understand what they really meant. Guess finally understanding late is better than not understanding at all.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I could be wrong, but wouldnt your chapter 13 payment have gone up anyway when your car was paid off? Since that extra income would of become disposable. So it seems to be a wash if that was the case.

                          More of a question, not an opinion.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I guess I am having trouble explaining myself. The car loan is just 2 years old. Once it goes into the plan it gets extended to 5 years. That means the auto loan is still owned by the company for 5 more years. Remember I have already paid 2 years.

                            Now the answer to your question about the plan going up any way because the car would be paid off sooner. You have part of that right.

                            If my car loan was outside of the plan. And once its paid off all the extra money becomes part of my DMI. That money would go to my unsecured creditors which is not much.

                            The way it stands the Trustee will make the money because it is going to be inside of the plan. I really wanted my creditors to get what is coming to them. Not a trustee that is getting it all.

                            You see if you put the mortgage, arrears, car payment there is nothing left over for the creditors. I know you are probably thinking that who cares about them. Well I am not in love with them but, I signed up for there credit and promised to pay. They didn't hurt me. Chase w/mortgage did. That is why I am filing bk 13.

                            You see Chase wants the house. They cannot have it. I filed the chpt 13 to prevent that.

                            Even if they had modified me, the interest, lawyers fees, adminstration fee, foreclosure fees, trustee sale fees, would be tacked on the the back of the loan making the house loan much bigger than what its worth. This way all of those fees are gone through bankruptcy. They are not part of the loan on the house, and I am not facing a balloon some where down the line. I did not ask for my home to become 30,000 plus more than what the loan is. Put the value of what the house is worth and it becomes even larger amount. People that got these mods are going to be in a bad position later.

                            Any way I hope I answered your question about the auto. That is the reason I started this thread. Because some people don't understand that if the car is younger than 910 old by the loan you cannot cram down the value of the car because it would look like you went out and bought the car right before you file. The car companies know what is done in Bankruptcy. I didn't want my car company to even know that I was filing bk. This whole thing is very embarrasing to me. I just want Chase to understand that know matter what I will do everything I can to expose them for their punitive damages, stress, national exposure, media what ever I can do to keep people from giving any of their business to them. I was always courteous to them, gave them what they asked for, treated them very professionally, went delinquent like they asked to before they would help. They then put me in the situation I am in now.

                            Any way hope this helps.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by val4747 View Post

                              They didn't hurt me. Chase w/mortgage did. That is why I am filing bk 13.
                              I think you are taking this too personally. This is business to the mortgage company and the credit card companies. The credit card companies aren't saying "we're so disappointed in val474, she let us down." And, I don't see how the credit card companies are any better than Chase Mortgage. Were the credit card companies willing to work with you to make your payments manageable? Did they offer to lower your rates or principal balance? Did they care that you lost your husband? Sure, they may have offered settlements eventually. But, like the mortgage, you would have had to default first and fees, interest and attorneys fees would have been added if you couldn't settle. The mortgage company gets treated better in the BK because they take on less risk by getting security when they lend money.

                              You borrowed money from both the mortgage company and credit card companies and aren't able to pay according to the original terms. They all just want to get whatever money they can out of you. The credit card companies would prefer that you pay minimum payments to them for the rest of your life and never pay them off. They make huge profits from a lot of people this way. Most people pay as agreed. Bankruptcy is a cost of doing business for the credit card companies. They don't care about you. Stop caring about them!

                              Originally posted by val4747 View Post

                              Any way I hope I answered your question about the auto. That is the reason I started this thread. Because some people don't understand that if the car is younger than 910 old by the loan you cannot cram down the value of the car because it would look like you went out and bought the car right before you file. The car companies know what is done in Bankruptcy. I didn't want my car company to even know that I was filing bk. This whole thing is very embarrasing to me.
                              Even if you were paying the car loan directly, the car company would have gotten notice. Again, stop taking it personally. They don't. You're just a number to them.

                              It's good to try to clear up misunderstanding of how car loans are treated in bankruptcy. I also got an eye opener regarding my car loan. I bought a car before I filed and was happy to get 1.9% financing for 60 months. That rate was really important to me. But, since I'm paying close to zero to unsecured creditors, the car payment is being paid through the trustee so she will get a fee. The financing company is going to get 7% interest and will be paid sooner than if I was paying them directly. They are actually getting a better deal than if I hadn't filed!!

                              Originally posted by val4747 View Post
                              I just want Chase to understand that know matter what I will do everything I can to expose them for their punitive damages, stress, national exposure, media what ever I can do to keep people from giving any of their business to them.
                              More power to you! You'll do a great public service if you can educate people about the modification process and how the mortgage companies aren't really out to help the borrower.

                              I'm sorry your attorney is a dud. It sounds like he proposed a plan that he should have known from his own experience would be unacceptable to the trustee. I'm sure it was quite a shock to learn your plan is completely different than expected. I hope you have called your attorney out on his incompetence. He seems to be an appropriate target for your anger.

                              You filed to save your home. Will that be accomplished? Looking at your entire financial picture, will you be in a better position with the BK than without it? If not, you may want to talk to your attorney about either dismissing the BK or converting to a 7.

                              Please try to get over the guilt and shame. The grief of losing your husband is enough to have to deal with. You need to do what is necessary to get by financially without him. There's no shame in that. The credit card companies and car lender will hardly notice your BK.
                              LadyInTheRed is in the black!
                              Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
                              $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!

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