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2 1/2 years and still not confirmed

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  • LadyInTheRed
    replied
    The judge gets the last word and would not issue an order before the trustee's deadline to object.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redsox
    replied
    So I just checked PACER and saw that the BK Judge approved the Motion to incur debt. Now, is this the final word or do I have to wait for the trustee to put her two cents in? I have emailed my Attorney but he wont get back to me right away.

    Leave a comment:


  • despritfreya
    replied
    Originally posted by Redsox View Post
    As I am sure you are aware, DK does everything by the book. She would not budge on anything! Our DMI is based on form 22C. I presented my attorney with the Supreme Courts decision that Chapter 13's should be a forward looking process, and dynamic. My attorney seemed indifferent about it.
    This is truly unfortunate and the other Trustees are more realistic. I suppose she simply wants cases to fail which is just plain stupid because, if you fail, she makes very little money. I guess she is independently wealthy and simply does not care how many cases she oversees make it through the system - wonder what her failure rate is compared to the othe Trustees.

    On the other hand, since your initial post, two 9th Circuit appellate level cases have come out and (limiting the holding in Lanning to the facts of that case) both allude to the need to use form 22C in calculating what unsecured creditors must get regardless of a debtor's ability to pay. Of course, the requirement to devote DMI only arises if a creditor or the Trustee objects. I suspect the other 2 Trustees will continue to be realistic as neither wants to be out of a job (too many failed cases means no $$ to run their offices) but I also suspect creditors will, once again, start objecting to Plans that do not pay unsecured creditors what form 22C says they are entitled to receive. Only time will tell.

    Des.

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  • Redsox
    replied
    Flowerchild: all the money we have paid has been held in escrow in essence. Our plan is for 5 years. And yes thank god we dont live in Michigan. The money we paid has been sitting in the trustees account.

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  • flowerchild
    replied
    Originally posted by Redsox View Post
    Just wanted to update everyone on my situation. We are finally Confirmed as of 9/11/12 after 2 plus years!! Our payments jumped to 1600/mo from 1250 but we just have to deal with it. We are now dealing with purchasing a car, as our lease is now up. My attorney has just filed a motion to incur debt. Does anyone have experience with filing this motion in AZ with Trustee DK? Is it going to be another horror show, like our confirmation? I hope it isn't.
    Whew!! Now that was a long time. Congrats!

    Now how long is your plan for? And what happened to all of the monies you've paid for the past 2 years? Since you are not a Michigander, surely those monies and the time has to be accounted for in your confirmed plan, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • Redsox
    replied
    As I am sure you are aware, DK does everything by the book. She would not budge on anything! Our DMI is based on form 22C. I presented my attorney with the Supreme Courts decision that Chapter 13's should be a forward looking process, and dynamic. My attorney seemed indifferent about it. So, we will see if the Motion to incur debt will be as difficult as Confirmation. We are returning a BMW with a 531/mo lease and buying a 2 y/o Minivan in which the payment will be substantially less. Unless the rate is 25%

    Leave a comment:


  • despritfreya
    replied
    Originally posted by Redsox View Post
    Does anyone have experience with filing this motion in AZ with Trustee DK? Is it going to be another horror show, like our confirmation? I hope it isn't.
    If your new car payment is about the same as the lease that has ended there should be no problem. But. . . since you are in the Tucson area the general consensus between debtor's counsel would probably be, yes, it could be another "horror show". Hopefully the consensus would be wrong.

    How did you, your attny and the Trustee come up with the Plan payment? Did she demand payment of "disposable income" as shown in form 22C or did she look at your "real" income and reasonable expenses? Just curious.

    Des.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redsox
    replied
    Just wanted to update everyone on my situation. We are finally Confirmed as of 9/11/12 after 2 plus years!! Our payments jumped to 1600/mo from 1250 but we just have to deal with it. We are now dealing with purchasing a car, as our lease is now up. My attorney has just filed a motion to incur debt. Does anyone have experience with filing this motion in AZ with Trustee DK? Is it going to be another horror show, like our confirmation? I hope it isn't.

    Leave a comment:


  • despritfreya
    replied
    Originally posted by Redsox View Post
    So when the Judge told you to upload the Order Confiriming without her signature, does that mean he (Judge) would sign the order without the Trustee's Signature?
    In this particular case, yes. Trustee refused to sign the Order for a stupid reason. She demanded a court hearing so I gave her one. Judge backed my firm to the hilt. But, normally the Trustee does sign the Order before it is submitted to the Judge.

    And, yes, it is the real budget that matters. We do not look at 22C if it is not representative of the real situation. This all goes to the USSC decision of Lanning which your attorney should be familiar with. (Lanning dealt with income, not expenses, but its reasoning can be applied to the expense side of the equation.)

    Des.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redsox
    replied
    despritfreya: Thank you for your input. So, what I can gleen from your last paragraph is that the Judge will look more at the Schedule I and J? So when the Judge told you to upload the Order Confiriming without her signature, does that mean he (Judge) would sign the order without the Trustee's Signature? This is so frustrating...2 and 1/2 years and still going back and forth with the trustee. I am not sure what kind of Metrics she is using.

    Leave a comment:


  • keepsmiling
    replied
    Surely there is some gutsy enterprising attorney/reporter/muckraker who wants to take that on. It's just WRONG. Like the Washington carveouts, the Fl middle district nonsense, and the non-existent NJ exemptions. (yes, I know, we can use Federal, but even so....makes you scratch your head)
    Might be fun/interesting to make a list of each state's peccadilloes.

    Leave a comment:


  • flowerchild
    replied
    Originally posted by keepsmiling View Post
    So... what happens to all the money paid before you are confirmed? I think you Michiganders need to rise up and revolt on this. It's a bizarre interpretation of the code, no?
    Yep I one of those Michiganders who filed in 3/2007 and wasn't confirmed until 8/2007. So when I complete my case it will be 65 months in total that I pay. I think it just sucks. I beginning to think that they just do a stall tactic just to get more money. And technically I think they can push you out 6 months more than the 60 months if they want to. If they did that then I will be 71 months.

    Leave a comment:


  • despritfreya
    replied
    I apologize. This is the first I have seen of this thread.

    The Non-consumer Bankruptcy wasn't available to us because. . . The credit cards I used for my business were under my name and not the business. .
    This is a mistake. To determine if the debt is consumer or non-consumer you look at what it was incurred for. Using a personal cc for your business means, to the extent so used, that amount goes on the non-consumer side of the scale. This is not a problem so long as you can document that the charges were for the business.

    We signed personal guarantees on an SBA loan, Lease, and our Suppliers, but not one of them came after us.
    I hope you listed these debts. It does not matter if the creditor went after you. It matters that the creditor has a right to go after you. Unless your creditor released you from the debt, these obligations must be listed and are non-consumer.

    Now, adding the cc and the personal guarantees are you a “non-consumer” case? If “yes” go back to your attny, amend the Petition to show that debts are mostly business. Once you have done this, and do not have any assets that you might lose (if you care about them) if you want to convert then convert.


    Now, as to your Trustee, she is a problem. Your real time numbers (Schedule I&J) are what matters in determining how much you pay to your creditors, not that stupid Form 22C. Your Trustee will require 22C to be correctly done and that covers the 6 months prior to filing. It would not include the new baby. However, I&J DOES cover your current/anticipated income and necessary expenses. If you are wage earners determining your income is easy. Your expenses need to be within reason. If this current go-around does not work take it to the Judge. I can tell you that I recently had an issue with your Trustee, set a hearing and made her look like a fool. The Judge (same one you have) told me to upload the Order Confirming without her signature.

    Des.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redsox
    replied
    So to update our Horror Show Chapter 13...Our attorney filed the amended DMI and payments yesterday and now we are waiting for the Trustee to accept it or object. If she objects how do we schedule a hearing with the Judge? What will happen at the hearing? Any help is appreciated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pandora
    replied
    2.5 years and still not confirmed?! I'd have had my lawyer in the corner asking WTH is up and what is the reason he/she cannot get the trustee to agree to payments. As HHM stated - this should've been to the judge waayyyy before this point.

    Des should know how things work given he's in AZ...

    Leave a comment:

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