Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as BKForum.com and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do:
BKFORUM.com (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto BKForum.com you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.


Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of BKforum.com.

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on BKForum.com are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

We quit claimed the property back to Citibank, now they threaten to sue us

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • We quit claimed the property back to Citibank, now they threaten to sue us

    Filed BK Oct '09, discharged Jan '10. Surrendered property in BK to Citi mortg, there was a small 2nd mortgage on the property. Neither of the Lenders filed or attended the 341, but a lien was placed by Citimortgage. Nothing from 2nd mortgage holder.

    After discharge I was still getting bills for taxes & upkeep of this property that I surrendered. My atty told me to request a deed in lieu of foreclosure, but Citi (Recovery Dept) told me they won't do it. Citi told me they will NOT foreclose because the house has very little value for them, but I could so a short sale and pay citi, then the lien would be lifted and of course my name removed. I did not want to do that, so in May 2010 my atty. drew up a quit claim deed and we filed it to give the prop back to Citi.
    Fast forward to Nov 2011, my attorney rcvs a letter from Citi's atty. stating if we don't expunge the quit claim deed they will sue us to have it removed. Citi doesn't want the property. (ha! they don't want the cost of upkeep/taxes etc.)

    I am thinking of paying the back taxes and fixing up the property and renting it out, what is my exposure here? Is this a dumb thing to do? What can Citi do to us next? Is this a ploy to get us to take all the expenses till values go up, then they will foreclose? Anybody ever deal with this, what can be done? Should I just go to court and fight this suit? HELP! enough is enough already, I want this over.
    Filed Chap 7: Oct 2009 ; 341 mtg: Nov. 2009 ; Discharged: Jan 2010:
    Credit score Aug 2010: 648

  • #2
    Well, this is the first I have seen of this actually happening, but it was only a matter of time.

    As I have been warning for years, simply quit claiming the property back to the mortgage lender/servicer is not going to hold up in court. A one sided quit claim is not a valid transfer.

    As for what they can really do, not sure. I would think all they could do is get a court to declare the quit claim void and have it expunged, beyond that, not sure what other damages they could claim unless they were sued by an HOA or something along those lines.

    Comment


    • #3
      If it were me, I wouldn't throw good money after bad. There's no predicting what the lender will do. If you rent it, you'll have to pay tax on that income, and then you'll also get stuck with capital gains issues, depreciation recapture, etc down the road. You'd also have tenant hassle and potential issues with your lender if there's an assigment of rents clause in your loan docs.

      If it were me, I would look into how mortgage liens are handled during tax deed sales in your state. If a deliquent tax auction would wipe out your mortgage lien, don't pay the taxes. Just let them accrue until your local authority auctions the house off to an investor.
      There are two secrets for success in life:
      1.) Never tell everything you know.

      Comment


      • #4
        Using their own paperwork to your lawyer, I would attempt to get a release of lien on the house if they do not wish to accept it. Pull the quit claim deed back, it probably won't cost a lot with their own paperwork stating that they will not accept the quit claim. Then do what you wish with this house. If renting, move back into the free house. Or sell it for a bit of profit. Sounds like a plan to me. 'Hub
        If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Everyone for your replies, this so complicated, please try and answer these questions:
          1. To AngelinaCatHub:
          Because the mortgage was discharged in the BK, and Citi doesn't want the property, just how do I get them to release the lien, exactly what do I do? (my bk atty has drew up a affadavit to expunge the Q.C.D. so what else?

          2.If they don't release the lein, could I sell this property for less than the owed amt. w /o Citi's approval? Like a short sale. Could they request the money,even though the mortgage was dischaged?

          3. To: Debee:
          I've heard how municipalities are getting caught with the cost of so many un-foreclosed properties that they hesitate to do auctions for "bad" properties that have been vandalized as this one has. Could the county fine me or come after me for the delinquent taxes and fees if I expunge this quit claim?
          Filed Chap 7: Oct 2009 ; 341 mtg: Nov. 2009 ; Discharged: Jan 2010:
          Credit score Aug 2010: 648

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by atvbutterfly View Post
            I've heard how municipalities are getting caught with the cost of so many un-foreclosed properties that they hesitate to do auctions for "bad" properties that have been vandalized as this one has. Could the county fine me or come after me for the delinquent taxes and fees if I expunge this quit claim?
            Property taxes attach to the land. They normally roll the associated fees into the minimum bid amount at the auction.

            Michigan state law requires the county to hold two tax sale auctions per year once a property is in the third year of deliquency. All they want to recover is the tax & the associated fees for boarding the place up, etc. They will sell it for a song.
            There are two secrets for success in life:
            1.) Never tell everything you know.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks debee
              Filed Chap 7: Oct 2009 ; 341 mtg: Nov. 2009 ; Discharged: Jan 2010:
              Credit score Aug 2010: 648

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by atvbutterfly View Post
                Thanks Everyone for your replies, this so complicated, please try and answer these questions:
                1. To AngelinaCatHub:
                Because the mortgage was discharged in the BK, and Citi doesn't want the property, just how do I get them to release the lien, exactly what do I do? (my bk atty has drew up a affadavit to expunge the Q.C.D. so what else?
                Have your attorney tell them you will expunge the QCD if they will release the lien. But, I suspect they'll want you to include some cash in the deal.

                2.If they don't release the lein, could I sell this property for less than the owed amt. w /o Citi's approval? Like a short sale. Could they request the money,even though the mortgage was dischaged?
                You may be able sell the property without Citi's approval if you can find a buyer who will buy it with Citi's lien still attached. Not likely. The discharge released you from personal liability for the debt, but they still have a lien on the property. They probably prefer to wait for a tax sale and take whatever is left or they may plan to sell the lien. If you have some cash you can offer, they may take very little to remove the lien. But, make sure you have enough to pay the back taxes too.
                Last edited by HHM; 12-02-2011, 04:09 PM.
                LadyInTheRed is in the black!
                Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
                $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Ladyinred!!
                  Filed Chap 7: Oct 2009 ; 341 mtg: Nov. 2009 ; Discharged: Jan 2010:
                  Credit score Aug 2010: 648

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To answer your questions

                    1. No way to "force" them to release the lien (no one ever really contemplated a secured creditor not foreclosing, so there is no provision in any state statute of which I am aware to force the issue)
                    2. Nope, you cannot short sell without authorization from the lender to release the lien. The Mortgage Note and the Lien are different things, bankruptcy discharged the note (your personal obligation to pay the debt), but not the lien.
                    3. Since you already did the QCD, the municipality is not looking for you at the moment, but yes, since you are, currently, the legal owner of the property, if the municipality figures it out, they could come after you personally for property taxes that come due AFTER your bankruptcy filing date. However, the extent of personal liability and any penalties is a matter of state law.
                    Last edited by HHM; 12-04-2011, 11:31 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This thread came at a great time. I was actually curious about this process. It is crazy to me that the banks will not accept a DIL or QCD to avoid the costs of foreclosure - then again - as demonstrated, the banks dont want the property anyway.

                      We are currently involved with two foreclosures (both debts discharged in our bk) - one commercial and one residential. The commercial property took over a year before they started proceedings and then the attorney they hired must have been retarded. The original sale date was scheduled for over a year ago (nov 2010) but the attorney for the bank failed to serve the tenants properly, and this case is still going on... I would add that there is no equity in the property.

                      The residential property has a heloc (as the first - investment property) with amsouth/regions - they filed the LP about the same time we were filing for bk, but now that case is stalled - They dont seem to want to own that property either. The value dropped rather dramatically on that property (we owe about 160k - its maybe worth 40 or 50k!!!).

                      My attorney told us that regions will not take a DIL, but i dont want the liability of the property anymore, so i was thinking about doing the QCD. Now it seems this isnt such a hot idea.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TBA View Post
                        This thread came at a great time. I was actually curious about this process. It is crazy to me that the banks will not accept a DIL or QCD to avoid the costs of foreclosure - then again - as demonstrated, the banks dont want the property anyway.

                        We are currently involved with two foreclosures (both debts discharged in our bk) - one commercial and one residential. The commercial property took over a year before they started proceedings and then the attorney they hired must have been retarded. The original sale date was scheduled for over a year ago (nov 2010) but the attorney for the bank failed to serve the tenants properly, and this case is still going on... I would add that there is no equity in the property.

                        The residential property has a heloc (as the first - investment property) with amsouth/regions - they filed the LP about the same time we were filing for bk, but now that case is stalled - They dont seem to want to own that property either. The value dropped rather dramatically on that property (we owe about 160k - its maybe worth 40 or 50k!!!).

                        My attorney told us that regions will not take a DIL, but i dont want the liability of the property anymore, so i was thinking about doing the QCD. Now it seems this isnt such a hot idea.
                        while it may not make much sence to us on this side of the fense why the banks will not simply accept them, loans via the VA, FHA and some others must go through the entire process required by those agentcies to recoup thier losses through the governement programs. an example of this is FHA must do it, or they cannot file a claim with the FHA even if there was PMI on the property.

                        as the other posters have mentioned, unfortunately one cannot force the hand of the bank to do anything about completeing your foreclosue and removing your names from the deed. we actually researched our state and the bank in that state which we have or had our property, has a 20 year statue of limitations to transfer a deed. so they can sit on it all of that time if that chose.

                        as previously mentioned DIL's QCD are worthless instruments if not signed by both parties involved. and, as HHM as pointed out, one cannot do a short sale unless it goes through the bank itself. i know some states are just being to have "real" short sales, like here in florida. however, it gets me when i hear people say they are going to do a short sale and don't have their bank on board, as the bank will not and does not have to accept any contract with less than the full amount owned to them, unless they have their stamp of approval on it. what a mess for many!
                        8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I do understand the FHA/VA thing as our bank with the SBA loan on our commercial property wouldnt negotiate with us at all. They had no incentive to work with as as they were going to get paid either way. I spent 6 months chasing after the "answer in two weeks" even going as high up as the VP of SBA lending (not at the branch level, at the corp level), before finally giving up on my chase. I remember telling my attorney how i wanted to tell my case to the judge and how we did everything we could, and feeling sad when he giggled at me. Now, i realize i am not the only one in that very same predicament, and that judge has heard my story more times over than he cares to...

                          It does still frustrate me though that these banks can go that long. 20 years?! That is crazy!!! I think they only have 5 or 6 in FLA depending on if its govt or not before you can SOL the lien. Not sure about the transfer of deed though (is that the same thing and we are just playing semantics?).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for all the info provided, this situation is very interesting to say the least. And our options minimal considering we can't force the Bank to free us of this property. It's such a shame cause I'd hoped with the bankruptcy I could get some relief. (well I did get some)
                            Filed Chap 7: Oct 2009 ; 341 mtg: Nov. 2009 ; Discharged: Jan 2010:
                            Credit score Aug 2010: 648

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TBA View Post
                              I do understand the FHA/VA thing as our bank with the SBA loan on our commercial property wouldn't negotiate with us at all. They had no incentive to work with as as they were going to get paid either way. I spent 6 months chasing after the "answer in two weeks" even going as high up as the VP of SBA lending (not at the branch level, at the corp level), before finally giving up on my chase. I remember telling my attorney how i wanted to tell my case to the judge and how we did everything we could, and feeling sad when he giggled at me. Now, i realize i am not the only one in that very same predicament, and that judge has heard my story more times over than he cares to...

                              It does still frustrate me though that these banks can go that long. 20 years?! That is crazy!!! I think they only have 5 or 6 in FLA depending on if its govt or not before you can SOL the lien. Not sure about the transfer of deed though (is that the same thing and we are just playing semantics?).
                              when the house sells that's when the deed is transferred and that's when your names are removed. i don't know what the state limitations for fla are, we live here now. all i know unfortunately, is the 20 years is the time period the bank can chose to NOT transfer the deed into anyone's name, even their own, as the property would have to change "hands". in other words and you can see this many times on the foreclosure sites that the banks buy back the properties in foreclosure and then the deed transfer as well, which in turn, removes the old owners names off the instrument and creates a new deed, now with the "new" owners name on it. in that case it would be the bank.

                              in nj it makes no difference whether it was a government back loan. 20 years it is in our case shoot....we had a FHA with PMI a no brainier to collect their loss, after all the mortgage was insured RIGHT??? however, as i stated before, i even called the FHA and chase has never filed a claim as it MUST foreclose first before they can collection from the FHA and on the PMI. makes absolutely no sense at all why they wouldn't want to get their money back. i'm at the point now, that i think there must be something underlining here that i just don't know about. even after researching it as far as i could. it's just a dead end.

                              everyone talks about trying to get a new mortgage but must wait 2-3 years until after their old house which was included in their bk forecloses, so, for people like me, it is possible that it will NEVER go through that process, at least not in my lifetime.
                              8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                              Comment

                              Unconfigured Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X