20/20 Hindsight and Misrepresented Income

[Peeps]

Thanks Debee. I know... it's really a mess. That's, of course, why all the insight from everyone on the forum is so appreciated.

[debee]

The only thing I read anywhere that gave me pause was that while exempt from garnishment, bankruptcy law, etc your ssdi is still income and you will need your schedules I/J to work out right for a chapter 7. Not positive about that, but I read it in a few different places. Have you run some numbers on those yet? You're under median, so no presumption of abuse, but you may still be a candidate for a 13. Not sure what your position is on that.

Also, if it were me, I would be in the lawyer's office yesterday. Why not just find out for sure and bring an end to the stress and worry. Just an idea.

[debee]

....but the fraud here is the abuse prior to filing your bankruptcy......

Tobee has a point here. Plus you have an undisputed, bona fide mental illness for which you receive SSDI. Your judgment was impaired.

[BKlooker]

I agree with what debee and others have said. This is ultimately going to be totally tied up with whatever local precedence and case law and recent rulings have been made regarding this.

Fish around and see if there are lawyer in your area who claim to work specifically with veteran affairs and BK. Do some sniffing and make sure it's a good, reputable lawyer too, and not just a BK mill, as it sounds like your case is going to need some kid-glove treatment. There may also be other ways to protect that money to be extra safe, particularly if you are willing to wait a year to file.

[tobee43]

The only thing I read anywhere that gave me pause was that while exempt from garnishment, bankruptcy law, etc your ssdi is still income and you will need your schedules I/J to work out right for a chapter 7. Not positive about that, but I read it in a few different places. Have you run some numbers on those yet? You're under median, so no presumption of abuse, but you may still be a candidate for a 13. Not sure what your position is on that.

Also, if it were me, I would be in the lawyer's office yesterday. Why not just find out for sure and bring an end to the stress and worry. Just an idea.

deb...i think that may depend on where you file...our pension and ss...(because the pension was police, firemen) was in fact exempt as income??..wow...right? personally, i was in shock about the pension...now we are not talking about a wage garnish here..i'm talking about our means test and sch j...

was i scared??? YES!! i thought this atty was maybe nuts, i'm thinking...this firm is going to throw us into a 13...the trustee was going to turn us into an asset case...but i'm telling you, it went fine in the court we were in.

that's what makes this so darn difficult...what may apply to ONE does not apply to another...what a MESS!

[debee]

deb...i think that may depend on where you file...

I agree. That's why I encouraged Peeps to get into her lawyer.

BTW: I just read about a Florida case this morning ... In re: Rodgers

Summary: A Chapter 13 plan that provided for payment of only $100.00 per month by debtors whose schedules disclosed net disposable income of $2,056.16 per month was not proposed in good faith, though this surplus resulted from exempt income that the debtors received, in the amount of $2,128.00 per month, in Social Security disability benefits. A bankruptcy judge in Florida held that the exempt nature of this income did not alter the fact that it was disposable income available to fund the debtors' plan.

[tobee43]

I agree. That's why I encouraged Peeps to get into her lawyer.

BTW: I just read about a Florida case this morning ... In re: Rodgers

Summary: A Chapter 13 plan that provided for payment of only $100.00 per month by debtors whose schedules disclosed net disposable income of $2,056.16 per month was not proposed in good faith, though this surplus resulted from exempt income that the debtors received, in the amount of $2,128.00 per month, in Social Security disability benefits. A bankruptcy judge in Florida held that the exempt nature of this income did not alter the fact that it was disposable income available to fund the debtors' plan.

yes, i think that's the point here...also that's a 13...so the courts are looking to apply every single dime one has or had in that case example.

what is even scary here, for example, is many times it depends on which trustee you get, they can and have the right to use their own discretion, many times..what about the LAW i ask?? but i have leaned better...law is NOT justice and justice is certainly NOT law, ain't that the sad truth of it...

i think it may be "easier" in a 7 just as applied in respect to the means test and when applied to the sch j. it's a tough one to call for certain.

[debee]

yes, i think that's the point here...

Well, in my post to the OP I said I didn't know because I don't. I read a few articles looking for info and kept running into the "doesn't count on means test, might count on schedules I/J" comment.

As for the ch13 case, it's just interesting (to me at least) that the trustee would expect the debtor to be paying the creditors with exempt income. Not the OP's state, so I didn't mention it for her sake. That tidbit was for you.

[tobee43]

Well, in my post to the OP I said I didn't know because I don't. I read a few articles looking for info and kept running into the "doesn't count on means test, might count on schedules I/J" comment.

As for the ch13 case, it's just interesting (to me at least) that the trustee would expect the debtor to be paying the creditors with exempt income. Not the OP's state, so I didn't mention it for her sake. That tidbit was for you.

thanks!! also learning from tidbits...even when they are really scary ones!! and, i really appreciate it...i tell you tho, and i know there have been many a successful 13's...but that possibility certainly scared the heck our of us. so i appreciated seeing the way it was handled in that one district. it simply shows perfectly clear the differences from district to district even in same state.

i think that's something we should all be aware of, actually.

[debee]

One thing I wonder is if the OP even needs to file bk. If her cash is exempt and her income is exempt and she has no assets, is there a benefit to filing? Can't she just get a new phone number and move on with her life?

[tobee43]

One thing I wonder is if the OP even needs to file bk. If her cash is exempt and her income is exempt and she has no assets, is there a benefit to filing? Can't she just get a new phone number and move on with her life?

well, thus far, and i'm always missing something...but peeps has not disclosed debt...it may be debt or a foreclosure or job lost, or even this present illness as the primary factor withstanding the determination whether or not a bk is actually needed. i would think it would encompass more than what we may see on this thread?

and if not...i would agree...runaway, change your number and lock your doors!!

[debee]

The only assets I have seem to fit into the allowable exemptions for my state. And my only income right now is from SSDI.

According to her first post, OP's assets are exempt. Anyway, there may be reasons for filing that I don't know. It's just something to throw at Peeps for her consideration.

But on second thought, exempt asset doesn't necessarily mean no asset. I think I've given all I had to give. lol. Time for me to find a new thread!

[Peeps]

Thanks for all the ideas, Debee & Tobee both! Thanks to everyone who has chimed in, for that matter!


The big Q in my mind was about the possibility of creditors screaming fraud. I was probably worrying too much about that. The SSDI thing is more in the hands of people who get paid to understand this stuff. I'll keep the forum posted, since sooner or later someone else is bound to be in the same position (if not already) with the same questions.


On the "why even file?" Well... good question. I'm still trying to figure out what would be best. And getting ready to talk with attorneys but that comes with its own challenges because of the agoraphobia. Yeah, I know. Train wreck. my $63k debt is all in credit cards. I have a right-side-up mortgage and am comfortable in my home (prefer not to leave). Also have about $15k in govt student loans that I wouldn't even DREAM of trying to walk away from. Those are gonna stick. So really it's just about the credit cards. I know I'm really not garnishable at this point, but I still have hope that someday I'll be able to rejoin the normal world, work again, be healthy and be happy. It has happened for others and I'm hoping I can get there too. Not sure I want a bunch of credit card ghosts following me around when/if the day comes!

[tobee43]

Thanks for all the ideas, Debee & Tobee both! Thanks to everyone who has chimed in, for that matter!


The big Q in my mind was about the possibility of creditors screaming fraud. I was probably worrying too much about that. The SSDI thing is more in the hands of people who get paid to understand this stuff. I'll keep the forum posted, since sooner or later someone else is bound to be in the same position (if not already) with the same questions.


On the "why even file?" Well... good question. I'm still trying to figure out what would be best. And getting ready to talk with attorneys but that comes with its own challenges because of the agoraphobia. Yeah, I know. Train wreck. my $63k debt is all in credit cards. I have a right-side-up mortgage and am comfortable in my home (prefer not to leave). Also have about $15k in govt student loans that I wouldn't even DREAM of trying to walk away from. Those are gonna stick. So really it's just about the credit cards. I know I'm really not garnishable at this point, but I still have hope that someday I'll be able to rejoin the normal world, work again, be healthy and be happy. It has happened for others and I'm hoping I can get there too. Not sure I want a bunch of credit card ghosts following me around when/if the day comes!

well, the best of luck to you, with whatever you decide peeps..

i'm just understanding that if you, in fact, have a home and have that amount of cc debt, as long as you are not in danger of defaulting on your debt, then the cc's will not put liens or whatever on your house...i think with the fact, that the house does have equity, that would be something to examine very carefully with an atty...just to make certain. however, i can see how one would want to be extremely mindful, as who wants those cc's going after your house! maybe even a 13 may suit your needs...settling on pennies on the dollar... the concern i have about that, is what debee posted about the example case of the people in the 13 in florida and the trustee wanted to include it as income. but would that even matter?

good luck and make certain you keep us posted as to how your doing!

[debee]

Makes sense, Peeps. You should be able to find a lawyer who will do a free consult over the phone. And from there, you can try to find one who will meet with you at your home.

As for the schedule I/J thing and your ssdi, well there's a wage exemption in every state and chapter 7 filers still have to list the income (exempt or otherwise) on their schedule I.

There was a second case I saw in the 8th where the BAP court ruled that ssi could not be included in a ch13 repayment plan. I mention that because in a previous post I brought up a Florida case where it was counted.

I hope you call a lawyer soon and come back and post because I'm really interested in how this will go for you. I wish you the best of luck and lawyering.