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Angry Creditors Coming to 341?

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  • #16
    At this point, there is a question if there is a debt that has arisen for the creditors before Loireweekend filed for bankruptcy. That is why an executory determination needs to be made on their contract. Until that determination is made, then the "basic" bankruptcy law can't be be applied. Section 727 (a) (4) (b) deals with scheduling of non existent debts and Section 704 (a) (5) deals with the "panel" trustee to object to improper claims.

    I totally agree that Loireweekend should seek counsel and that creditors have to take steps to have debts declared non-dischargeable.


    • #17
      I will no longer comment on this thread because I don't want to give Loireweekend any undue anxiety. She has enough going on to worry about what creditors might do. AP's are rare and executory determinations in BK are even rarer.


      • #18
        Agreed. Loireweekend you will need to see how the creditors proceed.
        Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
        Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
        Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

        I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.


        • #19
          I did not file Pro Se. After reading the responses here, I decided to seek counsel.

          I had my 341 meeting today first thing in the morning. Here are some of the things that happened.
          There were 14 cases scheduled that hour. Big room with rows of benches lined up, kind of like a church. Trustee sat at the head facing us. He stunned me and my husband at the start by distributing a sheet of paper saying if you are a former client of (my name), please put your name on the list. Trustee then said that he will handle my case at the end and proceeded to whiz through the other cases.
          Finally we were called and sat at the desk at the front with our attorney.
          The Trustee distributed copies of something that read, “Order Setting Claims Bar Date for Client Claims”. They also told all creditors to submit Form B410.
          Then another gentleman who identified himself as a General Attorney of the U.S. Trustee Program came up and sat himself next to the Trustee and started asking pointed questions, specifically:

          - When did I realize the business was in trouble financially?
          - Why did I sell my piano, car, jewelry prior to business closure? Why did I take over $200,000 out of the business between Jan and April 2017?
          - When did I decide to close my business?
          - Up to when did we continue to take new clients?

          Then they invited my clients to come up and ask questions. 2 came up and asked:
          - Why do I have a $13000 credit card debit with Saks Fifth Avenue when I claim to only have $150 worth of clothing now?
          - Did we have a drug or gambling habit?

          At that point my lawyer finally raised his hand and said he thought the way the question was phrased was improper to me and my husband.
          But all in all they devoted about another 40 min to my case, which I don’t understand how they could, without royally cutting into the their time because there was roughly another 16 listed on the roster for the next hour. Still reeling from the shock. This was actually way worse than I had envisioned…


          • #20
            The numbers, as you posted them from the meeting, are cause for the UST (United States Trustee) to question what is going on. They are trying to determine if you are deserving of a Chapter 7 discharge or that you should be only allowed to proceed to Chapter 13. That is their job.

            I would have expected more questioning from your creditors, but the questions are appropriate. However, unless Saks Fifth Avenue wants to file a determination on dischargeability, that $13k card does not matter. What does matter is that they are asking whether you are "hiding" property -- including clothing -- since it appears you only claimed $150 in clothing on Schedule B.

            Usually when the UST is involved there are more questions than a 341 Meeting typically allows, and they -- the Trustee and UST -- decided to use as much time as possible there. You could also be asked to do a Rule 2004 examination which is more intense if there are deeper questions that need to be answered. The $200K in 4 months is certainly going to peak their curiosity.

            Did you file as a non-consumer?
            Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
            Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
            Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

            I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.


            • #21
              Justbroke - Yes, I filed as a non-consumer.


              • #22
                That will get the extra scrutiny from the UST as they must verify what non-consumer debts you have and deal with any "totality of circumstances" objections that they may have. I was a non-consumer as well but the UST never showed at my 341 Meeting. My case was a conversion from Chapter 13 and I had originally qualified for the Chapter 7 -- based on my disposable monthly income (DMI) and my Means Test -- when I filed my Chapter 13.
                Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

                I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.


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