What should we do Need some advise

[slydog1967]

Our 341 is Monday, there were some mistakes made on means and J and we had to amend and I think the trustee is going to move to dismiss. My financial situation is below.

We have $4400 coming in a month after taxes

House taxes & ins 879 no equity
car 515
phone 60
cell 85
utilities 300 will go up with winter coming
kids braces 50
dance lessons 50
musical instrument 40
car ins 90
Life ins 135
ave gas 200
groceries home supplies 600
minimum payments on 63000 worth of unsecured debt 1400

That all comes to 4404 with no money left for anything at all, which is not possible.

I could get rid of car and I think there would be a little left over to buy a clunker save 515
get rid of cable save 25
stop 401K save 240
stop wifes life ins save 99

Which would give us $880 to live off a month.

I also might be able to get a part time job but my current job would frown upon that. Getting rid of the house is not an option as we owe what its worth and getting a place to rent the size we need is about the same. I do not like the uncertainty of going into a 13 because they may make the payment more than we can afford and will struggle as much or more than if we did not.

What is your opinions as most of you have gone through all of this. Thank you for your time.

[ameliabedilia]

Since you are posting this in the 7 forum, i am assuming you are filing a 7?
You don't calculate your debt that you will be discharging on your schedule J. When I add up your expenses without the $1400 of unsecured debt payments, that gives you WAY too much for a 7. You want your disposable income to come out to almost exactly even + or - $50. If your expenses were the $4404 without the debt payment it would be perfect.
If you got rid of the things you are suggesting and would have an extra $880 a month, then you don't need to file bk at all, you have plenty of money to pay back your debt with money left over.
Are you using a lawyer?

[lrprn]

Slydog, I deleted your duplicate thread in the Genl Bankruptcy area. It's best to keep all your answers in one location. Most of our members cruise all the forums so there's no need to post the same question in more than one area.

[SinkingFast]

minimum payments on 63000 worth of unsecured debt 1400

Did you file Pro Se??

The reason I ask is,.............. You don't include payments for debts you're gonna Discharge in your monthly expenses in your BK Schedules.

What's your gross income, family size, and what State you live in??

[aachudneymiles]

dance lessons 50
musical instrument 40??
hope you did put that on your schedule cause these are things you can do without.. hope your trustee is nice or too busy. When I did my schedule j and I i ended up with like maybe 30 left over and nothing to be questioned like dance lessons 50
musical instrument 40 ( things you can live without.. I also didnt include items that were to be discharged like my carnotes or loans . I put things I need to live and make it .. the most iffy thing I put on there is cell phone ( some iffy thing that can pass are cable, internet, cells) but now a days everyone has that stuff... I wish you luck you are pro se? Also It has been posted on here that (SOMETIMES) having a negative schedule brings attention to yourself and situation cause why have dance lessons 50
musical instrument 40 if your soooo broke... ( ya know ) not the way I look at it cause I have kids and know regardless of my dumb mistakes my kids are going to have a good life and not be affected by me or my husband. but you can still amend again it free for i and j I think but if you plan on get rid of thoses cars then they shouldnt be on anything but schedule d secured.. anyways hope that helps.. God Bless
ohh yeah wife life insurance is a must (Must) I could get rid of car and I think there would be a little left over to buy a clunker save 515

880.00 is well over enough to send you not walking but flying to chapter 13 ....

[aachudneymiles]

did you pass mean test? how many in your family? state? so forth

[slydog1967]

Had a lawyer, when we first filed it looked like we were well under on the means so we filed and the trustee found a mistake, so now we are borderline, the above figures are what I pay out monthly, on the means there are standards. Right now on J with everything the lawyer put in we are in the negative. I think with our paperwork being messed up and amending they are going to go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

we live in Ohio
4 in our family
gross income 75600 a year

On the means test we are at $25 disposable but on line 38 educational cost my lawyer put 275 which I think is high but it is the max you can take. He also took 200 car allowance on section VII for having a car that is paid for but over 6 years old, he found that somewhere.

On J we took the max allowed by IRS standards for food & clothing

I will not list my whole J schedule but some are below

Food 737
clothing 239
medical 300 have proof of that been a bad year
utilities with cable & internet phone & cell 439
laundry 50
transportation 640
recreation 100
charitible 100
life ins 167
car ins 94
health ins 86
car payment 515
house 879


Under other expenditures we have

pet expense 50
child care 140
personnel grooming 64
tobacco 150
dance 50
trumpet 40
school lunches 75
school fees & supplies 20
prescriptions 20
hygene & cometic supplies 62
gifts & presents 75
housekeeping supplies 72


I feel like such an idiot I wish I had found this forum before I filed, I really think also I should of shopped around for a better lawyer, when we first went in they were like yes you qaulify no problem, then when the trustee found the mistake it has been a roller coaster ride from hell. I am going into my 341 Monday with no confidence in my council or my paperwork that they prepared. When we started this we had not been late on a payment but was just drowning, I had some other income coming in that basically paid for my unsecured debt, I am the first to admit that we were stupid with our money. I do not even want to show up on Monday. I feel a fiasco coming.

A question, if the chapter 7 trustee moves to dismiss do we have to file for a 13 or can we just say screw it and get on with our lives and try and deal with it on our own?

13 scares the crap out of me.

[lrprn]

A question, if the chapter 7 trustee moves to dismiss do we have to file for a 13 or can we just say screw it and get on with our lives and try and deal with it on our own?

Let's play worst case scenario...if your trustee thinks you are a Ch 13 candidate because of what he sees on your forms, then he will convert your case rather than dismiss it. Then it's up to you to decide whether to accept the 13 or request to voluntarily dismiss your Ch 7 due to your lawyer's error and try again in six months with a different lawyer.

13 scares the crap out of me.

When your income is too high to qualify for Ch 7 outright and your Means Test and Schedules show plenty of disposable income, Ch 13 is a true blessing.

Although the five years can be challenging, it's far better than decades of financial hell with no end in sight and no protection from greedy creditors and collectors who make your life a living hell on a daily basis until you have nothing left but liens, garnishments, judgments, and foreclosures.

Don't let Ch 13 scare you if it's the only option you have for a fresh financial start. Just don't file a Ch 13 plan with your current lawyer since you have no faith in him.

[aachudneymiles]

Had a lawyer, when we first filed it looked like we were well under on the means so we filed and the trustee found a mistake, so now we are borderline, the above figures are what I pay out monthly, on the means there are standards. Right now on J with everything the lawyer put in we are in the negative. I think with our paperwork being messed up and amending they are going to go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

we live in Ohio
4 in our family
gross income 75600 a year

On the means test we are at $25 disposable but on line 38 educational cost my lawyer put 275 which I think is high but it is the max you can take. He also took 200 car allowance on section VII for having a car that is paid for but over 6 years old, he found that somewhere.

On J we took the max allowed by IRS standards for food & clothing

I will not list my whole J schedule but some are below

Food 737
clothing 239
medical 300 have proof of that been a bad year
utilities with cable & internet phone & cell 439
laundry 50
transportation 640
recreation 100
charitible 100
life ins 167
car ins 94
health ins 86
car payment 515
house 879


Under other expenditures we have

pet expense 50
child care 140
personnel grooming 64
tobacco 150
dance 50
trumpet 40
school lunches 75
school fees & supplies 20
prescriptions 20
hygene & cometic supplies 62
gifts & presents 75
housekeeping supplies 72


I feel like such an idiot I wish I had found this forum before I filed, I really think also I should of shopped around for a better lawyer, when we first went in they were like yes you qaulify no problem, then when the trustee found the mistake it has been a roller coaster ride from hell. I am going into my 341 Monday with no confidence in my council or my paperwork that they prepared. When we started this we had not been late on a payment but was just drowning, I had some other income coming in that basically paid for my unsecured debt, I am the first to admit that we were stupid with our money. I do not even want to show up on Monday. I feel a fiasco coming.

A question, if the chapter 7 trustee moves to dismiss do we have to file for a 13 or can we just say screw it and get on with our lives and try and deal with it on our own?

13 scares the crap out of me.

I am sooo sorry you have to go thru this. Trustee mite be looking in your case now but pray about it. Hopefully your lawyer knows about this trustee and those expenses are ok and you dont have to prove any of it.. God Bless

I guess 13 is a blessing to some.. but all thoses years is what's sooo scary

[aachudneymiles]

Had a lawyer, when we first filed it looked like we were well under on the means so we filed and the trustee found a mistake, so now we are borderline, the above figures are what I pay out monthly, on the means there are standards. Right now on J with everything the lawyer put in we are in the negative. I think with our paperwork being messed up and amending they are going to go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

we live in Ohio
4 in our family
gross income 75600 a year

On the means test we are at $25 disposable but on line 38 educational cost my lawyer put 275 which I think is high but it is the max you can take. He also took 200 car allowance on section VII for having a car that is paid for but over 6 years old, he found that somewhere.

On J we took the max allowed by IRS standards for food & clothing

I will not list my whole J schedule but some are below

Food 737
clothing 239
medical 300 have proof of that been a bad year
utilities with cable & internet phone & cell 439
laundry 50
transportation 640
recreation 100
charitible 100
life ins 167
car ins 94
health ins 86
car payment 515
house 879


Under other expenditures we have

pet expense 50
child care 140
personnel grooming 64
tobacco 150
dance 50
trumpet 40
school lunches 75
school fees & supplies 20
prescriptions 20
hygene & cometic supplies 62
gifts & presents 75
housekeeping supplies 72


I feel like such an idiot I wish I had found this forum before I filed, I really think also I should of shopped around for a better lawyer, when we first went in they were like yes you qaulify no problem, then when the trustee found the mistake it has been a roller coaster ride from hell. I am going into my 341 Monday with no confidence in my council or my paperwork that they prepared. When we started this we had not been late on a payment but was just drowning, I had some other income coming in that basically paid for my unsecured debt, I am the first to admit that we were stupid with our money. I do not even want to show up on Monday. I feel a fiasco coming.

A question, if the chapter 7 trustee moves to dismiss do we have to file for a 13 or can we just say screw it and get on with our lives and try and deal with it on our own?

13 scares the crap out of me.

$68,579 is the median for family of 4 ( as I thought ) so you would have to dependon listing iffy expenses to get your dis. income down.. well maybe you lawyer knows his job ( and the trustee) and can get away with some of those iffy expenses....

[qwertysue]

$68,579 is the median for family of 4 ( as I thought ) so you would have to dependon listing iffy expenses to get your dis. income down.. well maybe you lawyer knows his job ( and the trustee) and can get away with some of those iffy expenses....

Keep in mind that what may be out of the norm for your area may be common practice in another and vice-versa. Even when I was looking at our final schedule I thought we were gonna get called on some "iffy" items, but we had absolutely no problems.

The lawyer for the OP may have made an error, but he also may be very well versed in what is acceptable to the local trustee.

[slydog1967]

If we get converted to a 13 do we get to see what the payments would be before we decide wether or not to do it or do we have to decide before hand and then have to live with what they decide on?

[SinkingFast]

If the Trustee or the UST's Office moves to Convert, they'll come to you with a proposed monthly payment amount.

They'll go thru your Schedules and file a Motion where they argue that this and that are excessive or not allowed.

The Motion will propose that you pay $X/mo for how ever many months for the benefit of your Creditors.

The Conversion will only happen with your consent.

But, the Trustee's Motion is not a slam dunk. There will be a Hearing before the BK Judge to decide. And you, or your attny, gets to argue your case.

So, if it gets to Conversion,.......... You'll know the $$$ amount, the term, and you'll have to agree before it can happen.

[PaKettle]

[snip]

Although the five years can be challenging, it's far better than decades of financial hell with no end in sight and no protection from greedy creditors and collectors who make your life a living hell on a daily basis until you have nothing left but liens, garnishments, judgments, and foreclosures.
...

.

Is a 13 always 5 years?
One attorney mentioned something to me about if I wanted to go for a 13 he could probably get me something like $200/month for 2-3 years... I know nothing about 13's, so just curious...

While a 13 may be better than nothing, in my opinion one should do one's best to make sure they qualify for a 7 if they're in financial trouble and if there's ANY way to make themselves qualify...

What if the OP is turned down for a 7 and has to convert to a 13? Then, even though he was turned down for a 7, can he still convert the 13 back to a 7, in a year or so if the situation is right?

[lrprn]

Is a 13 always 5 years?... I know nothing about 13's, so just curious...

Currently Ch 13 plans are set for 36 months (3 years) or 60 months (5 years). After the current bk law went into effect in Oct 2005, the number of three year Ch 13 declined dramatically and plans other than 3 or 5 years were no longer allowed (rare exceptions: all creditors can be paid back in full in less than 36 or 60 months or a local court allows 57-59 month plans to give a few months leeway for emergencies during the Ch 13 plan).

Nowadays the only folks who get three year plans are filers that are under their state's median for their family size but still file Ch 13 - typically to save a big asset like their home or property from foreclosure by a creditor.