The car dilemma just wont die.......

[my4devils]

Now it smells like rotten lettuce. I cant find the source anywhere- I cant wait to get my beater.

Anyway- if you are below the median income do you still need to show the trustee what your disposable income is? Are we going to need the car payment to show just how poor we are? I guess we afraid that if the trustee finds out that we intend to ride through then turning the car in before discharge then we could somehow end up in a 13.

We set up the date to file- March 4th!! It will be here before we know it!

[Logan]

If your income is below the median then nothing else matters....

[my4devils]

Thank you for your response. There seems to be alot of conflicting info on this. Some say that a trustee can push you into a 13 if you can afford it, others say that if you are under than that is that. It seems to me that this should be something that is not subjective but so little with BK really is.

[keepmine]

Passing the means test is just the first hurdle. You can still be denied a Chapter 7 if, you have sufficent disposable income. Regardless, you still need to fill out all of the schedules.

http://doney.net/bkcode/11usc0707.htm

(1) After notice and a hearing, the court, on its own motion or on a motion by the United States trustee, trustee (or bankruptcy administrator, if any), or any party in interest, may dismiss a case filed by an individual debtor under this chapter whose debts are primarily consumer debts, or, with the debtor's consent, convert such a case to a case under chapter 11 or 13 of this title, if it finds that the granting of relief would be an abuse of the provisions of this chapter. In making a determination whether to dismiss a case under this section, the court may not take into consideration whether a debtor has made, or continues to make, charitable contributions (that meet the definition of "charitable contribution" under section 548(d)(3)) to any qualified religious or charitable entity or organization (as that term is defined in section 548(d)(4)).

(2)

(A)

(i) In considering under paragraph (1) whether the granting of relief would be an abuse of the provisions of this chapter, the court shall presume abuse exists if the debtor's current monthly income reduced by the amounts determined under clauses (ii), (iii), and (iv), and multiplied by 60 is not less than the lesser of--

(I) 25 percent of the debtor's nonpriority unsecured claims in the case, or $6,000 [$6,000 (added by BAPCPA 10-17-05)], whichever is greater; or

(II) $10,000 [$10,000 (added by BAPCPA 10-17-05)].

Practically speaking, this would be rare for a debtor under the median but, it can happen.

[jp2861]

If your income is below the median then nothing else matters....

What?????? Where did you get this information? That is dead wrong!

My4: You definitely need to show disposable income. That's the purpose for the Sch I & J. If what Logan posted was correct then all we would need to do is show income and be done with it. How nice that would be if it was true. If you're below the median then that's as far with the means test that you need to go. Once you clear the means test you need to continue on to your schedules to determine which Chapter you file for. Too much disposable income and you can end up in a 13. Google "means test" and you'll find a bunch of sites that break it down in laymans terms. There's a few different ways that your disposable income can be qualified. Too much to post here, but a quick search will answer the requirements.

[jp2861]

Passing the means test is just the first hurdle. You can still be denied a Chapter 7 if, you have sufficent disposable income. Regardless, you still need to fill out all of the schedules.

http://doney.net/bkcode/11usc0707.htm

(1) After notice and a hearing, the court, on its own motion or on a motion by the United States trustee, trustee (or bankruptcy administrator, if any), or any party in interest, may dismiss a case filed by an individual debtor under this chapter whose debts are primarily consumer debts, or, with the debtor's consent, convert such a case to a case under chapter 11 or 13 of this title, if it finds that the granting of relief would be an abuse of the provisions of this chapter. In making a determination whether to dismiss a case under this section, the court may not take into consideration whether a debtor has made, or continues to make, charitable contributions (that meet the definition of "charitable contribution" under section 548(d)(3)) to any qualified religious or charitable entity or organization (as that term is defined in section 548(d)(4)).

(2)

(A)

(i) In considering under paragraph (1) whether the granting of relief would be an abuse of the provisions of this chapter, the court shall presume abuse exists if the debtor's current monthly income reduced by the amounts determined under clauses (ii), (iii), and (iv), and multiplied by 60 is not less than the lesser of--

(I) 25 percent of the debtor's nonpriority unsecured claims in the case, or $6,000 [$6,000 (added by BAPCPA 10-17-05)], whichever is greater; or

(II) $10,000 [$10,000 (added by BAPCPA 10-17-05)].

Practically speaking, this would be rare for a debtor under the median but, it can happen.

I believe those numbers have increased recently.

[epiphany]

I specifically asked my lawyer about this when he asked me to document my expenses as I thought that I was way under the median and didn't have to. He told me that I still did.

EP

[keepmine]

I believe those numbers have increased recently.

Yes they have- unsure of the current numbers. Just trying to answer the OP's general question.

[my4devils]

Okay- so if the car payment keeps us around where we need to be as far as disposable income, what happens if the trustee finds out we are planning on turning the car in? Can we still turn it in after the BK has been discharged? FYI- I do ask these questions to our lawyer but it is very important to me to check what he says with this forum. I have been able to bring up situations that he hasn't thought of in the past and he appreciates the fact that I educate myself. Again- thank you for your help!

[lrprn]

Okay- so if the car payment keeps us around where we need to be as far as disposable income, what happens if the trustee finds out we are planning on turning the car in? Can we still turn it in after the BK has been discharged?

Keep the car so the payments count into your expenses. Then after you file, surrender the car back to the lender.

[Logan]

Passing the means test is just the first hurdle. You can still be denied a Chapter 7 if, you have sufficent disposable income. Regardless, you still need to fill out all of the schedules.

http://doney.net/bkcode/11usc0707.htm

(1) After notice and a hearing, the court, on its own motion or on a motion by the United States trustee, trustee (or bankruptcy administrator, if any), or any party in interest, may dismiss a case filed by an individual debtor under this chapter whose debts are primarily consumer debts, or, with the debtor's consent, convert such a case to a case under chapter 11 or 13 of this title, if it finds that the granting of relief would be an abuse of the provisions of this chapter. In making a determination whether to dismiss a case under this section, the court may not take into consideration whether a debtor has made, or continues to make, charitable contributions (that meet the definition of "charitable contribution" under section 548(d)(3)) to any qualified religious or charitable entity or organization (as that term is defined in section 548(d)(4)).

(2)

(A)

(i) In considering under paragraph (1) whether the granting of relief would be an abuse of the provisions of this chapter, the court shall presume abuse exists if the debtor's current monthly income reduced by the amounts determined under clauses (ii), (iii), and (iv), and multiplied by 60 is not less than the lesser of--

(I) 25 percent of the debtor's nonpriority unsecured claims in the case, or $6,000 [$6,000 (added by BAPCPA 10-17-05)], whichever is greater; or

(II) $10,000 [$10,000 (added by BAPCPA 10-17-05)].

Practically speaking, this would be rare for a debtor under the median but, it can happen.

[Logan]

Another site: http://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcyco.../chapter7.html