Passed means test but trustee still asking for more info?

[kimba251]

We failed the means by income alone (over by 4,000 I think) but passed after income and all deductions/bills are put in. We've had our trustees meeting and that went fine.

We filed in may and a week after we filed Trial Attorney from Dept of Justice requested ALOT more info. We complied with all that was asked. That was June 6th. This Friday the 27th she requested MORE info. I don't understand why we are getting such a hard time when we passed the means test.


I gave her all paystubs she requested but one must have gotten misplaced. She asked for that paystub and now requested an additional month that is outside the 6 months. We are giving those too but why such a hard time?

She originally asked for 6 months paystubs, 3 yrs tax returns, 3 yrs of any applications or loans taken out, 1 yr bank statements, 1 yr credit card statements, copies of car payment invoices, credit report, and we had to itemize everything we have spent 200 or more on in the last 12 month period. (there wasn't much but how could I really remember every single thing under the pains of perjury)

To top it off I had to write an essay about what I have done to try to change lifestyle and repay debts.

My dh and I both got hurt at work and are on workmens comp. We have lost alot of money since injuries and I am having back surgury. I will probably be out indefinitely.

I understand her job is to look for fraud but we are honest and just in a bad way financially. I am trying not to take it personal but I really thought we would be all set after I provided all the other info and explained our injuries and such.Is this the norm?

[laurannm]

I think it varies from district to district. Are you trying to discharge a lot of debt?

From what you are describing it isn't the norm, but there have been others on this board who have gone thru similar ordeals (look for posts from Help!).

I can't believe they are making you write an essay...sounds like high school all over again!

Best you can do is to continue to provide what they ask for. If you have nothing to hide then try not to worry about it too much. Some trustees are much more "diligent" then others.

Do you have a lawyer? Perhaps they can shed some light on whether or not this is the norm in your area

[kimba251]

We do have a lawyer and he said when you are close to or over the income allowed it can send up a red flag. I don't have a problem giving the documentation at all. There is nothing to "find". It's hard to not be nervous when more info is requested. I thought for sure after all the other info was in and we explained what happened we would be all set. I don't understand the need for additional info (though we gave it) or what they think we are hiding.

Our income went down ALOT but we can't work overtime anymore. We lived way above our emans but paid our bills every month no problem for 8 yrs. We worked whatever hours we had to and the bills got paid. I know we lived out of our means but it was never an issue until we BOTH got hurt. THey haven't asked but we have doctor documentation and I am having a surgury. I guess it just bothers me that all that other stuff wasn't enough and it seems like a fishing expedition now. I feel like it's personal now on us for some reason although I guess it can be standard for some

We have about 50,000 in debt and no equity. We are keeping our house which we are upside in too. It just stinks because we were working towards paying down our debt and not using ccs anymore. We had to use them for food once the money ran out in savings and we almsot lost the house. We were able to save the house with our 401 k money and we just want to be dome with this whole process.

[magyar123]

Are you by any chance of middle eastern or hispanic descent? It is a widely known fact that non-white folks are put more through the ringer. Would definitely not be surprised if racial profiling entered into the bankruptcy process.

[kimba251]

We have never met the Trial Attorney from DOJ. She requested info from us a week after we filed and now again.

I just looked on Pacer and she filed a 707 b presumption of abuse also

[Cali]

You are BKing 50k?

[JRScott]

Kimba first off since you are over the median income it is not unusual for the trustee or UST to challenge the bankruptcy. A presumption of abuse in such a case does not necessarily mean you will not get a successful discharge. It will however mean a longer case time.

Just work with your lawyer and provide all requested information. You will probably have another meeting with trustee. If all works good they'll drop their presumption of abuse claim. Hang tight don't give up.

[HHM]

Are you by any chance of middle eastern or hispanic descent? It is a widely known fact that non-white folks are put more through the ringer. Would definitely not be surprised if racial profiling entered into the bankruptcy process.

I hope you have some evidence for such a remark. The BK system, for the most part, is race neutral in my experience.

Thus, even if true, I am not sure how your posts helps, anyway.

[oldrocker]

I hope you have some evidence for such a remark. The BK system, for the most part, is race neutral in my experience.

Thus, even if true, I am not sure how your posts helps, anyway.

Yeah from what I've seen bk is probably the most race neutral area of the judicial system, JRScott's post most likely sums up your situation. Try not to freak out to much, at this point just trust in your lawyer and see where it goes. I've always told my wife, no need to waste energy worrying about something until you know its actually time to worry. Life's to short.

[Help!]

We have never met the Trial Attorney from DOJ. She requested info from us a week after we filed and now again.

I just looked on Pacer and she filed a 707 b presumption of abuse also

Hi Kimba251,

If you look my up in the Members List and read through the threads I've started and my posts on this topic you'll see what happened with my case after the UST filed a statement of presumed abuse. The UST is required to file this statement within 10 days of your 341 hearing if your means test shows abuse arises. If you checked the box "the presumption does not arise", the UST has recalculated your means test and has either included something as income that you did not or has changed your expenses. The important thing to know here is that this is simply a statement that must be filed by the UST if the numbers can be construed to show that you have disposable income. It is the UST's job to push above-median 7 filers into 13 or have their case dismissed.

First, check PACER to be sure there is a statement in your case history that the meeting of creditors was concluded. Second, your attorney needs to communicate with the UST's attorney ASAP to determine which numbers on the means test they disagree with.

You have a very short time to dispute those areas of disagreement with documentation or explanation. If the UST is not convinced, they will file a motion to dismiss (or less commonly a motion to convert). They must do this within 30 days from the date the statement of presumed abuse was filed. You want to rebut the presumption of abuse right away, because once the UST's attorney has filed a motion to dismiss your only option other than 13 is to file an objection to dismissal. At that point, the only way to avoid having your case dismissed will be for your attorney to argue your case to the judge at a hearing. Your attorney will either have to show that the UST's means test calculations are incorrect or to assert "special circumstances". Your attorney will likely charge you additional fees to object to the motion as this will mean research on their part and the filing of a brief to argue your case.

We were unsuccessful in convincing the UST's attorney at our second 341 hearing that a one-time relocation bonus should not be counted as income and were told then and there that a motion to dismiss would be filed. We wrote up our own "brief" that day rebutting the presumption of abuse. We explained that the CMI on the means test was artificially high and was not representative of our ability to repay our debt. We also asserted that the relocation bonus represented "special circumstances", hinting that if a motion to dismiss was filed we would file an objection in order to have the benefit of judicial discretion. Finally, (and this is the only reason our case is proceeding), we offered to remove exemptions on about $39K of personal property and allow liquidation to repay creditors. We explained with calculations that liquidation would result in greater repayment to creditors than a Ch. 13 repayment plan would.

The key thing to keep in mind is that the UST's job is not just to ensure the BK code is not being abused, but to maximize repayment to creditors. If it looks like the creditors are going to get nothing from your Ch. 7 but could receive substantial repayment in a Ch. 13 plan, you can expect the UST to push for dismissal/conversion. It is just like a chess match or poker game... you need a strategy. If your attorney doesn't come up with one quickly, my advice is to get behind the wheel and take over before your case gets dismissed.

We have really been put through the wringer, but we were able to convince the UST's attorney to file a declination (a statement that allows our Ch. 7 to proceed). You may be able to do the same.

I know exactly what you're going through and I truly feel for you. If you're okay with Ch. 13, you can always go that route... but if Ch. 13 is only going to create more hardship for you it's worth your best effort to put up a good fight. You really have nothing to lose.

[kimba251]

THanks so much for all the info everyone. THis is such a streeful experience. Never in a million years did we see ourselves here.

I know exactly where we messed up in our filing for the numbers but we explained everything to her in our "essay". It was 3 pages lng and documented EVERYTHING and how we got here financially. She should have had no questions, it was very thorough.

There is no extra money and I'll have to redocumnet when we object. I am calling my lawyer asap Monday. Thanks for the great advice and support

Also someone asked and we are actually bking 75,000, I forgot the second car. It's a no asset bk and on pacer it says our trustee at 341 says no abuse etc, awaiting discharge. On the docket page is where I see the flags for debtedc (waiting to do post bk one) reaf (to keep our 1st car)
ntcappr (what does this mean?? notice to appear- but what does that really mean?) and 707b. It also shows filed on 6/27th the presumption of abuse.

[Goingbankrupt]

Help! Does that mean if no presumption of abuse is reported on Pacer one week prior to the 341 that it should go smoother. My 341 is on the 8th....I am nervous.

[kimba251]

My attorney filed no presumption on his paperwork but US trustee filed the statement of Presumption exactly 10 days AFTER my 341 meeting. THey have 10 days from 341 meeting to file a presumption and they did.

[laurannm]

THanks so much for all the info everyone. THis is such a streeful experience. Never in a million years did we see ourselves here.

I know exactly where we messed up in our filing for the numbers but we explained everything to her in our "essay". It was 3 pages lng and documented EVERYTHING and how we got here financially. She should have had no questions, it was very thorough.

There is no extra money and I'll have to redocumnet when we object. I am calling my lawyer asap Monday. Thanks for the great advice and support

Also someone asked and we are actually bking 75,000, I forgot the second car. It's a no asset bk and on pacer it says our trustee at 341 says no abuse etc, awaiting discharge. On the docket page is where I see the flags for debtedc (waiting to do post bk one) reaf (to keep our 1st car)
ntcappr (what does this mean?? notice to appear- but what does that really mean?) and 707b. It also shows filed on 6/27th the presumption of abuse.

Which part of your filing were the numbers messed up on?

[kimba251]

We get a bonus yearly that ups our income but we use it to pay our home equity down. I out it in our essay and what we use it for. I didn't break it down over a 12 month period and add it to our monthly income but I didn't add the hoe equity as a monthly expense either because we pay it off all at once when we receive bonus.

We also had didn't show our 800 401 k money as stopped because we stopped it right after filing so I guess it could look like extra income. We stopped it because we reaffirmed our house and need it to be able to afford our bills.

So theoretically it could look like we have 800 plus yearly bonus as extra I guess even though it is all spoken for. I explained we had stopped the 401 k plus what the bonus is used for but I guess she might want it for a 13.

Lawyer is going to call her and get back to us since she filed presumption. He thinks she wants us in a 13. He said we would have to move our numbers around to make it look like we have enough to repay a 13. I don't understand how if we don't have the money we have to report we spend less than we do to fit into a 13??

If you have no extra money aren't you a 7??