Getting Audited....help

[biotechsolution]

Yes, I over the median.

Exactly what is abuse?
Anytime a debtor is above the mean income, this is potentially 'abuse'. Now if the debtor is say only 10% or so above the mean the UST most likely won't even look twice at the petition. If you say 50% or so above it then the UST is going to look at everything. Even if you use the IRS standards for means test you are usually safe if you have to use your schedules to give you 0 disposable income the UST can still object on 'the totality of the situation'. Which is all subjective where he believes that even though you show 0 disposable income he doesn't agree with all of your expenses.

Everything on my petition is real, nothing made up and no lies, I have nothing to hide, but now i cannot produce the 24 months of credit card statements and they also want me to prove that our transportation eexpenses, which I have not kept my gas receipts or tolls receipts. I didn't think i had to, my lawyer never said they COULD ask for this stuff, so make sure you keep all receipts.

No receipts might be a problem in you went above the IRS guidelines. By going above IRS guidelines you sort of need the receipts to prove the expenses. If you commute a long distance you might be able to log the mileage, show what a gallon of gas cost in your area and list what you car gets per gallon. Just list the tolls you pay each way. Remember your transportation expenses really would have to related to commuting for work each way, not just general driving.
I am sick with worry. Worry about what? I am worried about the uncertain. Now, will the US Trustee be at my 341 too? Also, explain to me what is abuse. Thanks

If you haven't had your 341 yet the UST asking for all this stuff might not be a good sign. Usually the USt will wait until your 341 meeting to ask questions, then you'll get the notice for more information. For the UST to step in this early most likely means the panel trustee flagged your case already and sent it to the UST. But that might not be the case. This could just be a random audit, keep your fingers crossed.

One thing to thing about. If you were above the mean income by quite a bit and your attorney acted like no big deal he may have been planning to push you into a Chapter 13 all along. They make a lot more filing a 13 than a 7. He may have figured the UST was going to force you into a 13 anyway.

[WoodSprite]

If you haven't filed yet, read this

Jesse, so sorry to hear of all the bs you are having to go through.

I guess we can all learn from this.I guess we should always assume that the UST or possibly others may want outdated documents. I would say for those who are planning on filing or still have active accounts should download statements from as far back as possible for any and all accounts.Save all receipts even if they are filed in a shoe box.Plan for you BK if at all possible.And the attorney you have should be a little more attentive to his clients needs....what a jerk...Good Luck Please let us know how it goes.

Steve, it doesn't help poor Jesse a bit, but this is great advice for anybody who hasn't yet filed. Most of us don't realize (or can't believe) that our online access to cc histories will be blocked once we file, and I wish our attorneys would tell us as a matter of course to download all the info we can get our hands on while we still can.

I realize now that my attorney was doing me a huge favor. His office provided a stack of enormous envelopes with labels on them, and I had to fill them with, as it turns out, everything a UST would probably have asked for. It was an absolute nightmare, and when his assistant, who actually filled in the forms, told me 'they almost never need all this crap', I was pretty unhappy. But if I'd been audited, I'd have been good to go. The more I read this forum, the more I realize how lucky I was.

Sorry this is too late for you, Jesse, but let's hope it helps somebody else.

[jessegirl]

I am over the median by 20K. I am going crazy lookng for statements, receipts etc. My attorney should of warned me about this and told me to keep all receipts. I have a meeting with him this week.

HALLOWEEN - I filed about 3 weeks ago.

Does anyone know if I print out my hubbys milage to and from work how do I figure how much a gallon for gas?


Why does the UST want 2 years of CC statemnts? What are they looking for?

The UST is going to be pissed because I do not have 2 years of CC statements. I feel like i am getting buried alive.

[TEW]

I am over the median by 20K. I am going crazy lookng for statements, receipts etc. My attorney should of warned me about this and told me to keep all receipts. I have a meeting with him this week.

HALLOWEEN - I filed about 3 weeks ago.

Does anyone know if I print out my hubbys milage to and from work how do I figure how much a gallon for gas?


Why does the UST want 2 years of CC statemnts? What are they looking for?

The UST is going to be pissed because I do not have 2 years of CC statements. I feel like i am getting buried alive.

http://www.chs-law.com/2008/05/bankr...to-resume.html

[JRScott]

Hi everyone, I got a letter is the mail today and the UST is performing an audit... Just my luck. They are asking for 2 years of cc statements, 2 years ultities bills, transportation expense proof, like gas and tolls, etc. lease agreements on vehicles, etc. is this normal? I am a no asset case BK7. The letter says they are reviewing for ABUSE... What do they mean by that? My case was basically cut and dry, mosting all CC debt. SHould I be worried? And what are they looking to do? Everytime, we turn the corner its a different obstacle. Is this normal?

This is probably one of the random audits.

The information requested is normal for such.

Almost no one keeps this kinda of information at hand though. No one has room to store that much dead info.

Bank statements you can go to the bank and request copies, assuming you still bank at the same bank it should be a non issue. Depending on how far back the online banking goes and type you might be able to get some of the other proof. Going by where you wrote checks could help establish utility and transportation costs, as well as food and medical.

If your online banking allows print out copies of the returned checks for each of the months you are able to do so. You probably can print out the history of the account for 2 years as well just depends on your bank.

If you don't bank at the same bank now or changed banks in that time you might have to go and request the information in person with proper ID from the bank.

The utility companies also can probably give you a history of your account upon request.

If you use a single Doctor or Hospital, you might go there and request that information as well.

If you included the above in your bk petition then it is likely you'll have to go through your lawyer. Its the weekend so give him at least til next week to respond. Just send an email stating about the letter you received and ask how you might get further information.

Try not to panic

[Pinkie86]

I know I can't be of much help, But I will say that my heart goes out to you Jess.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

[kimba251]

I had a feeling you would get flagged by reading your posts. We had similar situation and income etc and I got flagged too.

My trustee wanted all that plus more. I also had to write a letter explaining my situation etc. For the credit card statements you have been locked out of your accounts. THey only want to talk to your lawyer now. Make a list of your credit card companies names and phone numbers and give it to your lawyer. Tell them to request the 2 yr statements for your trustee. You are now covered. I was not able to gt my statements and I don't think my lawyer requested them either. It was not an issue though. I never met my trustee and UST was not at my 341.

The most important thing for you to do right now is be competely honest and accurate. THe UST have access to so much info and if you are trying to fudge numbers or overestimate something they will find out. It is true like another PP said that UST stepping in already is not a random flag and not a good sign. They are going to try to get you into a 13.

As for the utilities, you can call or go online and print out up to 2 yrs worth, I did. UST is looking to see that you accurately took the average of 1-2 yrs worth in your schedules and aren't fudging numbers.

Remember when you said should you still get your nails and hair done-when I said no this is what I was talking about. UST will be looking at things like that.

The only reason I stayed in a 7 was because some info was inaccurate to my benefit-800 a month was overstated. If it weren't for that I would be a 13.

Just remember something-this will one day be over. It is so stressful right now but you will get through it. A 13 is not a horrible thing if that is what happens. With the UST it is not a personal thing-though it may very well feel that way. (Been there felt that)

I wish you well and hope everything works out. If something your lawyer says about something doesn't feel right go with your gut or ask here. Ultimately it's your butt on the line here so don't let them fudge things to get you into a 7, once you sign papers you are responsible for the accuracy of what you sign. I don't know if your lawyer did that but just wanted to throw it out there.

Feel free to pm me as I just went through this myself fairly recent. Good luck

[jessegirl]

Thanks everyone. I was up last night until 4:00 a.m. looking for stuff. My husband just says relaxed and lets take care of it together.

I have maybe 3 months of bank statements, but they are not all of the statements that I paid a month. The pile is probably 3 inches tall and that is only 3 maybe 4 months. But, its not a complete month. Like some months I kept more statements then others. I just keep looking at it and saying why 24 months. It will take her days to go thru each one. What is she looking for? I looked at the statments and most if not all have just payments on them. Maybe 3 had pruchases, but they were clothes or junk under 300.

How do they throw you into a 13? What is the bottom number that determines a 13?

The government bails out these big people and when it comes to the little guy, they throw you out into the sharks and you are left fighting for your life.


By the way, thank god I stopped getting my nails done, way before we filed and now I only paid a haircut and my girlfriend highlites my hair for free. At least they can't pick on me for that.

I will call my attorney on Monday and set up an appointment.

[debtmonster]

My wife works in customer service at a mall and it's mandatory that she looks nice. For her to get her hair or nails done is like part of her job.

[banca rotta]

Yes, I over the median.

magyar - you are right! they bail out the banks and then us comsumers who don't have a pot to piss in have to worry...

Exactly what is abuse? Everything on my petition is real, nothing made up and no lies, I have nothing to hide, but now i cannot produce the 24 months of credit card statements and they also want me to prove that our transportation eexpenses, which I have not kept my gas receipts or tolls receipts. I didn't think i had to, my lawyer never said they COULD ask for this stuff, so make sure you keep all receipts.

I am sick with worry. Worry about what? I am worried about the uncertain. Now, will the US Trustee be at my 341 too? Also, explain to me what is abuse. Thanks

It means that they feel you may have the ability to pay back some of the money in a chapter 13.

Do you have any higher then normal expenses since you are over the median? They may need proof for things like private school or that sort of thing.

[banca rotta]

Thanks everyone. I was up last night until 4:00 a.m. looking for stuff. My husband just says relaxed and lets take care of it together.

I have maybe 3 months of bank statements, but they are not all of the statements that I paid a month. The pile is probably 3 inches tall and that is only 3 maybe 4 months. But, its not a complete month. Like some months I kept more statements then others. I just keep looking at it and saying why 24 months. It will take her days to go thru each one. What is she looking for? I looked at the statments and most if not all have just payments on them. Maybe 3 had pruchases, but they were clothes or junk under 300.

How do they throw you into a 13? What is the bottom number that determines a 13?

The government bails out these big people and when it comes to the little guy, they throw you out into the sharks and you are left fighting for your life.


By the way, thank god I stopped getting my nails done, way before we filed and now I only paid a haircut and my girlfriend highlites my hair for free. At least they can't pick on me for that.

I will call my attorney on Monday and set up an appointment.

My own personal experience as well as what I have seen here is that they can determine not only by the so called rules but by your attorney or whether you filed pro-se things like that.

I've seen some over the median and breeze a 7 and some under the median with an idiot lawyer or pro se get forced into a 13.

In your case it doesn't mean you are going into a 13, but a judge may have to hear both sides and decide. Sadly this may be costly and cause some sleepless nights as you are already having. Sorry you are going through this and hope it ends in your favor.

[jessegirl]

Thanks to all I truly appreicate you kind words.

My expenses I thought we all ok. not to high. My attorney put zero in for entertainment, which I thought HMMMM why did he do that? My husband drives about 800 miles a week to work, so with the price of gas our travel/car expenses were high, like about 1000 per month. He also pays alot of tolls too. And I have a gas guzzler so it costs me roughly 150 per week. They want documentation to prove that, but I do not have all the gas receipts only a few. My hubby is going to print out his mileage and I will give the gas receipts that I have for me.

But he didn't inflate my expenses, at alteast I do not think so.

How much do you have to have by be thrown into a 13? Is there a set amount that you would have left once all expenses are paid that would determine if you quealify for a 13?

It costs us over 3800.00 so far for the chapter 7 and then if I have to go to court, I don't know where I am going to get the money... Its so upsetting!!! I have nothing left and they keep sucking more and more. If I was rich like D. trump I probably wouldn't even be questioned by the UST or maybe if I was ed McMahon... My hubby acutally said to me today, please lets try not to talk about it a 1/2 hour before bed. I cannot help it, it is consuming me with worry. Not sure why cause I have most of the information they are looking for I am just scared that it is not going to go our way. Then I look over at my kids and think, my god what did I do. They are innocent in this whole thing and who knows what kind of life they are going to have after this is over. If we are forced into a 13, what will happen with there sports and activities. You have to pay for everything for the kids to be involved in. Nothing is free, when I was small everything was free, now sports and activities are alot of money for uniforms, registration, etc. I am going to have to stop them from doing this and how will I explain that. You are only a kid once and should not have to worry have money. Thats for the adults to worry about. What a mess I have caused. Credit cards are EVIL.....

My hubby just got paid and we are already broke... Its depressing.

[debtmonster]

That's been happening to me. I get paid in the middle of the month and then the electronic bill pay wipes me out nearly 100% within 3 to 5 business days. Then I have to wait until the middle of the following month to get paid again for the cycle to start all over. We have to live on credit cards to make it to the next month. So we're stuck getting deeper and deeper in the hole.

[Help!]

We went through the same thing. It was the worst, but our bankruptcy survived. The best thing you can do right now is to educate yourself. I know it is hard to muster up the energy when you've been knocked down, but if you have time to read through my posts (beginning in May when our first 341 hearing was continued) you might find my story helpful. Getouttadebt, Yankeegirl, Kimba, rfassett come to mind also - varying circumstances but we've all been the "presumed abuse" route. Check out their stories as well.

Give the UST's attorney EVERYTHING they ask for, every receipt, every statement, go through your means test calculations and understand them. If your attorney isn't on board, it makes things so much more difficult... but not impossible. You will have to get behind the wheel yourself.

If you don't even know where to begin, just start by going down the list of documentation the UST wants item by item. The process of doing this will help you understand your petition inside out, which is necessary if you're going to fight this battle to get your discharge. Hang in there and think of it as taking small steps toward your discharge!

[Help!]

I have a problem, cause I do not have 24 months of credit card statements or utilities bills either. What do I do? Do you think the CC companies will work with me?

Thanks

I'm going to try to answer as many of your specific questions as I can. I would contact each and every CC company ASAP and try to get those statements. Some will send you statements, others (like Chase) will stick it to you while they have you on the phone. The first thing to do is to get yourself a spiral bound notebook. When you call to request those statements, write down the number you called, who you spoke to and what they told you - along with the date and time. If they refuse to send you the statements, you now have a written record you can refer to if asked by the trustee.

If you absolutely can't obtain some of them, type or write a note in your paperwork stating that you used e-statements (if that's the case) and that you contacted the creditor but they refused to provide you with statements (referring to that notebook). The UST's attorney can get them, but it shows that you put forth the effort to provide them with the requested documentation.

The utility bills shouldn't be as much of a problem.

I'm stepping in without knowing where you're at in the process, but if you haven't had your 341 hearing or it's been continued, that notebook will be a lifesaver. Write down everything you do and every communication (including unreturned calls to your attorney) and you'll be able to answer questions accurately if asked.