pro se filer + amendments

[bilbo]

Can anyone offer any advice or prior experience with this?
I filed pro se under the old law. My 341a is this Friday(FRIDAY THE 13TH LOL)

Unfortunately, I realized I made some mistakes when doing my income and expenses so I had to amend them. My amended income is higher than originally listed and my expenses less than originally listed--have a $77 excess income. Will the amendments automatically get me red flagged? Or does it depend on the trustees and how they view pro se filers? I was detailed, listed my on call pay, mileage re-imbursement, and child support. I am hoping they won't grill me just because of the amendments--I tried to be honest as I could about everything.

I am soooooo worried about the 341. I know lots of others go through this. It sucks not being able to sleep well because of worrying over it.

Anyway, thanks

[StaciMM]

Just my 2 cents worth... Sounds like you can honestly say that you amended to correct errors. It would probably look worse if your amended #'s were more in your favor-but it sounds like they are not.

[bilbo]

Thanks for the reply
No they were not really in my favor.
The problem is I amended my income worksheet 2 times. The first time I amended it because I realized I had left out on-call pay and mileage re-imbursement--BUT then I realized I actually OVERSTATED it. I should not have filed that amendment so quickly; I would have realized my mistake.

I have been so stressed over all this....I overstated it because I just averaged the 2 months prior to filing and put that figure in. Then I realized it was NOT an accurate representation of what I normally make. We had a nurse out during that time and for one 2 week payperiod during that time I cleared over $600 extra. NOT my normal income. So when I amended my income statement the second time I basically averaged the last 8 months. My trustee had requested pay stubs for 60 days prior to filing. It does have my year to date earnings so they can see that my final figure is the most accurate one.
I am hoping that if they do question this they will accept my explanations. I mean, doesn't it show that I was trying to be honest by listing on-call & mileage in the first place? I really don't want to get dismissed or forced into a Chapter 13.......I would have used a lawyer if I could have found one that was available when I finally decided to file

[StaciMM]

The honest approach should see you thru this. Take pay stubs to the 341 with you, and if it comes up - tell the trustee that you were nervous in doing the paperwork and realized afterwards that you overlooked some things. On the other hand, if it doesn't come up-don't bring it up.

[bkfiler]

well, anything you amend before the trustee or us trustee objects or complains about something in your case is ok. its if you do it after they object. it makes it look like you are covering somethign up, dishonest and you loose creditbility. not good. so you are ok.

however, for people reading this thread in the future, make sure you find every single expense so that you expenses exceed your income by way more then $100 if you can. people think that you should try to align them like you are a great accountant and are manageing your exepenses verses income perfectly. so many attorneys tried to say that is what should be done.

problem is when you get a trustee with a wild hair, finds something he wants to look into or object to and then your statement changes. poof you are forced into a chapter 13. does it happen often. no, but why take a chance. list every single expense. besides, why not be truthful.

if you are thinking of filing then start writing dodwn anything you spend money on all day long for weeks and months ahead of time if you havnt filed yet. that will help.

[bilbo]

Thanks Staci and BKfiler. At least the amendments were done prior to the 341--it is this Friday. There may be a few expenses I will be questioned on such as transportation or my cell phone bill. I am a home health nurse so all I do is drive all day every day--and make calls on my cell phone. lol If he asks I will just tell him the truth--I wasn't sure about the forms the first time when I filled them out and made some calculation errors on the first amendment I submitted.
I guess I have been reading posts lately where the 341 went OK but then the US Trustee claimed abuse or such......People who have never filed before just don't understand how stressful all of this is. I am glad I found this site. I wish I had found it BEFORE I filed my BK.

Do you think trustees are being extra picky with all the filings that occured or do they just want to get done with it? Waiting from 10-13 to 1-13-06 is a long wait for the 341.

[StaciMM]

On the question of what should your schedules show, there is alot of debate. The end answer, of course, is that they should be realistic.

What I mean, though, is some people agonize over: should I show a huge deficit, or if I show a huge deficit will it raise a lot of red flags? That is something that will vary case by case, and trustee by trustee.

I think it is not uncommon for people's budget to be overdrawn. We try to make an idealistic budget-that may be more of a wish list. We've all been there-when money gets tight, we cut things out. We may budget to change the oil every 3 months, but then it turns into every 4-5. We put off the haircuts, the entertainment, etc. Its not that we don't need the money in those areas, but sometimes we need it more in others. For this reason-I think it is NOT harmful if the budget is a little negative. On the other hand, I don't think it HAS to be negative either. If your #'s are realistic, and you're not wasting money on needless expenses, I'd say good for you if you have a few dollars left each month. You're a step ahead of the game. Those of us who went into BK in the red each month, even if only slightly, have to figure out ways to cover the incidentals AND the necessities. You can only put off so many oil changes, afterall, before it turns into a bigger expense.

I kind of ran on there-sorry if its not really appropriate here. I will say, before I turn in for a few zzz's that people w/ higher than average income are more likely to have everything on their petition looked over with a fine tooth comb. I had a friend who filed early in 2005 (before the changes were official) and at the time they filed, their expenses were $1000 a month more than their income. I thought that was outrageous and would draw a lot of extra questions-apparently it didn't. But, what that didn't show was that they filed 1 month after a new baby, and that family was helping them out with some things. They were also not at a household income, for a family of 5, that would catch anyone's attention. I think if a 'high income' filer were to show $1000 more in expenses than income, they would be more likely to get accused of a bad faith filing and living beyond their means. I'm not agreeing that its right-personally I feel the circumstances should speak more than the gross income.

Climbing off my soap box...

[bkfiler]

"Do you think trustees are being extra picky with all the filings that occured or do they just want to get done with it? Waiting from 10-13 to 1-13-06 is a long wait for the 341."

its all up to the trustee, how much extra cash he has in his pocket and if his precious daughter has to get a new pair of jeans and shoes this friday. anything could and does happen. they are all different and do whatever makes them feel good to them. thats the honest truth.

[StaciMM]

2 things to keep in mind... There are 2 trustees, and they make money in different ways. That of course, can translate into meaning they are motivated to accomplish different goals.

The regular trustee, the one you meet with at your 341, wants to find assets. He/she gets to keep a certain % of money/stuff that is not exempt. The US Trustee wants to find a way for you to have extra income to fund a ch. 13. It seems the general rule of thumb is $100+ for that, though part of a 13 payment goes to the trustee and part usually helps cover the attorney expense, so having $101 doesn't necessarily mean you will end up in a 13.

Anyhow-the regular trustee is not so much interested in whether you have $-77 available, or $77 available. He is interested in tax refunds, excess home equity, or other items that may not fit within the exemptions. He will likely have info on market conditions for home sales, and probably carries the NADA book in his back pocket. The US Trustee probably looks at all cases where the filer(s) have over a certain income level, and then randomly checks other cases. If you aren't over your state's average income, I think the odds are slim that the US Trustee will put much thought into your petition-and the regular trustee has no reason to try to get you into a 13. Even if he did review your case, unless some of your expenses were over zealous you probably wouldn't be worth his time. And, as some here can backup-if you do go before the US Trustee, just be prepared to explain your expenses.

[bkfiler]

lets not get the poster over worried now. one step at a time.

soon you will be discussing options for buying a home 2 years after bk lol

[sunshine08]

Our attorney ammended our expenses the day before the 341, our expenses monthly. My mother lives with us and does help with expenses, however, large ticket items in the past were done with our tax refund, homeowners and property taxes. The trustee asked us about it, I answered him, he asked for no proof (& the key is have your documentation ready, take a copy for the trustee in case he askes, then you don't have to stress finding it and getting it to them on time.)
This is also a good reason to have an attorney.

Try - not to stress it too much, promise that the trustee won't eat you or anything. Have all your "proof" in duplicate, get there early, dress decent, and be honest are my advice.
Good luck - do a post Friday and let us know how it went!