Personal Injury & Chapter 7 Bankruptcy --- Need Advice

[anonymuse]

In Sept 2003, I had a car accident. The other driver was found 100% at fault and ticketed. Their insurance company offerred me $750 right off (whoopie) and I opted to decline and settle at a later date. I've had spinal problems before--my cervical spine is fused, but my low back has gotten worse and worse since the accident. Rough estimate, the medical bills are less than $5,000 which insurance has been paying besides $500 deductible and 20% copayments. I'm not sure what I'm going to ask for, but I don't want to fight and bring in a laywer (I've been advised that any gain I might get would end up in the lawyer's cut anyway), but I just want to get something more than the $750.

The lawyer told me that personal injury suits are exempt in my state. However, when I asked how do I "hold" the proceeds separate, he said it didn't work that way since they could take the money. He said to just file after the Chapter 7 was over.

What I didn't think about then was that the statue of limitations on my personal injury case would be up before a BK would be completed.

Of course, I'm going to go talk to the BK lawyer again, but was just looking for your advice here since I know the lawyer will be somewhat limitted in what he can say with the new BK laws.

1) Should I just take the $750, pay the lawyer, and forget about it?

2) Should I file the PI suit immediately and file my BK after that?

3) Should I file the PI suit immediately and file my BK a little later but both would be going on concurrently?

I'm sort of leaning towards #2 to sort of "take my chances".

If I ask for a fair amount, document the hell out of it, have my docs write a quick letter, and take just about anything they offer, I'd do the following with the money:

1) the medical insurance will require it's money back first
2) pay the lawyer (priority expense, right?)
3) pay back taxes (priority expense)
4) pay my outstanding medical bills related to my back treatments
5) essential expenses I've beeen neglecting:
- tires & windshield for car
- go to dentist (been over 2 years)
- new glasses, new orthotics
- clean my carpets
- not essential, but my dog would like it - put in doggie door so she can get out when I'm not home
- pre-pay a few massages (massage therapist lets you pay for 3, get 1 free)
- dog needs teeth cleaning (poor girl just had another tooth fall out)
- I'd love to have someone come in and build really basic shelves in my basement to get things off the ground and organize things (basement floods),
6) not sure if I could pay my car insurance for a year or 6 months in advance (right now I pay it monthly)
7) put some away for retirement (I wiped out my 401K trying to stay out of bk)
8) pay unsecured creditors, but no more than $600 each

So, my "ideal" scenario would be to get and spend some of this money on essentials before filing (especially the lawyer) since I feel that any money I get might only be able to have me delay bk for a month or two, but won't really change my financial situation.

Then, basically let the trustee take whatever is "in the bank" and distribute it to the creditors so that they would get something--even if it's only a small amount.

The trustee would still distribute to the creditors in the same order (secured, priority unsecured, nonpriority unsecured), right? So, my priority lien would probably be taken care of first?

Ok, does what I'm saying make sense? Am I on the right track or wrong track? Does this look like any kind of pre-BK planning?

Ok, scammer, where are you? Would really like your opinion on this one!

[FilingOnMyOwn]

Don't take the 750.

File BK now.

File the pi suit immediately after the 341.

[anonymuse]

Don't take the 750.

File BK now.

File the pi suit immediately after the 341.

How does that prevent the trustee from getting all of the money?

[aa06a47]

If you win your lawsuit, you might not need to file BK. Just what you described to be will cost the insurance company 6 figures to settle. I definatly would not let the statue of limitations expire on this one!!!

If I were you, I would call the insurance company and tell them you will settle for 250K tomorrow without going to trial. 2 reasons to do this. 1) If you receive an offer, your attorney can only legally take the % of the money he has won for you. So, if they come back and say, you know, 250K is high, about about 125K...tell them you want it in writing. So, then if you go to court and win say 150K, the attorney can only collect a percentage of what he gets you over the 125K. and 2) you may like the offer and go on your marry way.

The insulted your intelligence with a $750.00 offer. You might ask them to multiply that by 1000 and see what they say as well.

[anonymuse]

Gosh, aa, you're shooting a lot higher than I would. $750 was the one week offer--so shouldn't that calculate to $750 per week for almost 3 years? That's $117,000.

The lawyer is not doing the personal injury. Everything I've read is anywhere from 2.5 to 10 times medical bills plus lost work. I think I need to find a personal injury forum. ;)

[scammer]

Okay lets dissect this thing. Have no idea what I am going to say, lets see how this goes.

In Sept 2003, I had a car accident. The other driver was found 100% at fault and ticketed. Their insurance company offerred me $750 right off (whoopie) The industry is so bad, that they are not even offering people their medical expenses on the first offer, that first offer should be medical plus $750 and I opted to decline and settle at a later date. I've had spinal problems before--my cervical spine is fused, but my low back has gotten worse and worse since the accident. Rough estimate, the medical bills are less than $5,000 which insurance has been paying besides $500 deductible and 20% copayments. I'm not sure what I'm going to ask for, but I don't want to fight and bring in a laywer (I've been advised that any gain I might get would end up in the lawyer's cut anyway), but I just want to get something more than the $750.

I know a bit about these kinda suits, they are so common that there are books issued by state and region telling what a particular claim is worth today. The insurance company knows you don't have the knowledge or ability to file the suit, and they are playing that up. What is it like 2-2 1/2 times medical is about the number for something like this. But they are going to run you around, you will have to provide tax returns, and all kinds of crap that doesn't even pertain to the events to prove what you say. They are going to say it is a prior injury too. You need a lawyer to make a demand of $25,000, which is actually $15,000 in the adjusters ears. Then the attorney who has power/juice to file a suit can get it negotiated. Probably will throw you a bone between $5,000 and $10,000 to go away, It think it might be closer to 10 then 5, maybe even close to 12, take it. Then attorney needs to subrogate medical claims. You might get a couple thousand worth of medical bills, knocked down to 65%, understand this part? but long road, if not settled fast.

The lawyer told me that personal injury suits are exempt in my state. However, when I asked how do I "hold" the proceeds separate, he said it didn't work that way since they could take the money. He said to just file after the Chapter 7 was over.

What is exempt, the future payment, or proceeds from prior to filing. You know, If you think about it, if he told you PI settlements are exempt, that means getting the money after file date would be all yours, Yes, No????
Of course getting the money before file date, means you have to spend it smartly


Can you afford to not have an attorney, get this accident deal done fast
and spend those proceeds wisely, or file the suit, if you file the suit it is a long path, and once you file, you have to move forward. Ask no_it_all he is our resident pre-lawyer what comes first in the process. Wait till they do discovery on you. Actually wait till they need discovery from the Doc's, Any idea what that might cost? My guess Doc is worth $300-$500 hour, somewhere in there is a bill for the Doc's time, but I don't know when, it is either discovery or at trial.


What I didn't think about then was that the statue of limitations on my personal injury case would be up before a BK would be completed.

Whats the rules, you gotta know and help us here, there are three things;
File date, Dismissed date, Closed date, this needs to be answered. No guess work.

Of course, I'm going to go talk to the BK lawyer again, but was just looking for your advice here since I know the lawyer will be somewhat limitted in what he can say with the new BK laws.

1) Should I just take the $750, pay the lawyer, and forget about it?

See, they know you are not represented by making $750 offer. Go see a PI atty before BK atty. 1st

2) Should I file the PI suit immediately and file my BK after that?

depends

3) Should I file the PI suit immediately and file my BK a little later but both would be going on concurrently?

depends, you gotta find out

by the way, your not going to file suit, trust me, it is a big deal to undertake. tremendous resources needed. Like I said, can you afford to drag doctors into court?

I'm sort of leaning towards #2 to sort of "take my chances".

If I ask for a fair amount, document the hell out of it, have my docs write a quick letter, and take just about anything they offer, I'd do the following with the money:

Ask pi atty before you screw it up, you might have allready. By the way, the adjuster will sometimes ask how is it going? a greeting of sorts, you say fine, it is a set up, to be used against you.

Might be to late, you have had contact with the adjuster, and by the way, I can promise you that the adjuster is a level 3, your not talking to the man yet.

1) the medical insurance will require it's money back first

yep, there is a word for this, maybe subrogate? basically you offer to pay a percentage of bills to health provider. Think your able to negotiate that? were talking some tough cookies here.

2) pay the lawyer (priority expense, right?)

he earned it, kinda!!

3) pay back taxes (priority expense)

huh?, your not talking income taxes are you? If you are no way in hell!
Let the trustee pay them for you, at least that is whats happening for me.

4) pay my outstanding medical bills related to my back treatments

From accident, or something else?

5) essential expenses I've beeen neglecting:
- tires & windshield for car
- go to dentist (been over 2 years)
- new glasses, new orthotics
- clean my carpets
- not essential, but my dog would like it - put in doggie door so she can get out when I'm not home
- pre-pay a few massages (massage therapist lets you pay for 3, get 1 free)
- dog needs teeth cleaning (poor girl just had another tooth fall out)
- I'd love to have someone come in and build really basic shelves in my basement to get things off the ground and organize things (basement floods),

essential expenses scammers beeen neglecting:

1. Dinner at Charlie Trotters
2. Sleazy women in Las Vegas
3. Chicago Cubs season tickets
4. ohh this is about you, sorry.......



save the money for your bk expenses, what ever they may be

6) not sure if I could pay my car insurance for a year or 6 months in advance (right now I pay it monthly)
7) put some away for retirement (I wiped out my 401K trying to stay out of bk)

look I really like you, and read all your posts, but the money ain't going that far

8) pay unsecured creditors, but no more than $600 each

Are you nutty?

So, my "ideal" scenario would be to get and spend some of this money on essentials before filing (especially the lawyer) since I feel that any money I get might only be able to have me delay bk for a month or two, but won't really change my financial situation.

I have experience with a BIG TIME P&I in Denver, DON"T bring my name into it; His website is xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx.com or something. He sues Walmarts for Millions of dollars at a time, and wins. I can hook you up with him, but don't think you need a hired gun this big, but you need someone like him thats tough.

Then, basically let the trustee take whatever is "in the bank" and distribute it to the creditors so that they would get something--even if it's only a small amount.

huh? What are you a charity? keep very little cash in the bank close to filing. Your number one priority is YOU, (within the law)!! Creditors can eat Crow soldier. ohh and a insurgent from Iraq called, said your supposed to pick up a bag of gunpowder on the way home today, and mail it over there, if you can help them out too they would appreciate it.

The trustee would still distribute to the creditors in the same order (secured, priority unsecured, nonpriority unsecured), right? So, my priority lien would probably be taken care of first?

Ok, does what I'm saying make sense? Am I on the right track or wrong track? Does this look like any kind of pre-BK planning?

Ok, scammer, where are you? Would really like your opinion on this one!

so, lets see how I did

Answer all questions-------nope, info still needed, homework for you.

put things in perspective----check

Game plan put together------waiting for further info, work in progress



No_it_all knows some of this stuff, he is down the street at the frat house building a beer bong, get him in here, for some free advice

scammer couldn't sleep so he was playing on computer and just revised this a little, you probably wish you wouldn't have pm'd me.

[FilingOnMyOwn]

How does that prevent the trustee from getting all of the money?

After the 341, you would have no further contact with the trustee 99% of the time.

[anonymuse]

scammer couldn't sleep so he was playing on computer and just revised this a little, you probably wish you wouldn't have pm'd me.

No regrets--I like you too (just get jealous sometimes.)

I guess I misspoke calling this a suit--it's actually a claim. The "formula" is generally 1.5 to 5 times (10 in extreme cases) medical expenses plus income lost to start negotiations.

I know prior injury will be the sticking point--that's why I don't expect too much. If they throw me a bone, I'm all for it. (I just wish they could have seen me crawling to the bathroom and having to rest every 5 feet and then just not making it--sorry for the visual, but that's what it came down to about 6 times.)

Colorado BK statute:

13-54-102. Property exempt.

(1) The following property is exempt from levy and sale under writ of attachment or writ of execution:

(a-m omitted)

(n) The proceeds of any claim for damages for personal injuries suffered by any debtor except for obligations incurred for treatment of any kind for such injuries or collection of such damages;

This BK lawyer said that having a claim is alright but actually getting the money it won't be exempt. I have a call into a PI lawyer who does BK also and will discuss the whole timeline/relevant dates thing.

The adjuster contact was just the "on the spot" looking at the car to assess damages and take pictures and he called the office to say he got the okay to give me $750 on the spot (plus car damages). I told him that all I had seen was the urgent care doctor and my orthopedist appointment was later that day. (I know--20/20 hindsight, I should have taken the ambulance and/or gone to ER.) I've been bugged about the $750 again and I said no and I hadn't recovered yet.

I understand the whole subrogation thing and that's what I meant by the whole medical bills things. I do have other medical bills to pay also since I did not have medical insurance for 2 years.

Love you're essential expenses--but for me it would be Broncos season tix (I gave them up), fly to NJ for the final Bon Jovi concert, and maybe some Chippendales?

I know the money isn't going to go far. Funny how right now if I had some extra money, one of my first priorities would be to put in a doggie door. LOL

I looked up that dudes web site. Walmart sounds like a bunch of idiots!

Interesting articles:

The Interaction of Public Policies on Personal Injury and Bankruptcy

http://www.nafe.net/JFE/j06_1_02.pdf

Personal Injury Awards and Exemptions
[19 Alaska Bar Rag No. 4 (Jul/Aug 1995)]

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/usdc/bnkrptcy/briefs/bnk14.htm

[anonymuse]

After the 341, you would have no further contact with the trustee 99% of the time.

There's a difference between protecting the money so no one can see the funds and the letter of the law. That's what I'm trying to figure out--I'm not messing with any federal laws here!

[Credit Hater]

You have ongoing pain thats probably going to affect you for the rest of your life and need compensation for it. DEFINITELY seek this compensation you deserve before the SOL expires.....waiting this long may actually help you when going to trial because you seem like the type of person who doesn't want to be an ambulance chaser, and that definitely shows.....but you were not at fault, at all, so I'm sure a jury will take your side in this.

Spinal problems? $250,000 minimum is what I would seek. I don't know your age but add up the years missed from certain jobs and happiness and quality of life that this is COSTING you. Thats what a good lawyer will convince the jury of.

[anonymuse]

You have ongoing pain thats probably going to affect you for the rest of your life and need compensation for it. DEFINITELY seek this compensation you deserve before the SOL expires.....waiting this long may actually help you when going to trial because you seem like the type of person who doesn't want to be an ambulance chaser, and that definitely shows.....but you were not at fault, at all, so I'm sure a jury will take your side in this.

I am definitely NOT an ambulance chaser. Now, no one beat me up for this one. I was rear ended once (bumped, not plowed into) and it was totally an accident. Poor road conditions, icy, poor visibility. Just went to chiro a few times. They offerred me a $2K settlement and I refused it--not to put in a bigger claim, but because I felt like it was no one's fault. (No flaming please, it's just the kind of person I am.)

Spinal problems? $250,000 minimum is what I would seek. I don't know your age but add up the years missed from certain jobs and happiness and quality of life that this is COSTING you. Thats what a good lawyer will convince the jury of.

Late 30s. When I was unemployed (unrelated), I couldn't do the typical cashier or waitress jobs since I can't do the lifting or stand all day. But having previous back problems and a very rare (in the 1% group of 29,000 known cases) spinal condition (although in my neck) I'll see what the PI lawyer says.

.

[Credit Hater]

I'm sorry, you took my post wrong. I wasn't flaming you at all and was saying you seem like you're not an ambulance chaser.

You were injured though and deserve compensation for it....just offering my opinion, I aplologize

[anonymuse]

I'm sorry, you took my post wrong. I wasn't flaming you at all and was saying you seem like you're not an ambulance chaser.

You were injured though and deserve compensation for it....just offering my opinion, I aplologize

No, no, no--I didn't take your post wrong. Don't worry.

[no_it_all]

There are a couple of things you should be aware of. Any claims of negligence are going to covered under a different proceedings that is talked about on this site. In Colorado, (I assume that will be the state of jurisdiction) legal and financial responsibility is based upon the law of negligence. A negligent act which causes damage or injury is legally known as a tort. Any claims will be argued using Tort Law, not Civil Law..

You mentioned some pre-existing conditions to your back? The accident was almost three years ago? Why are you filing a claim so late? Attorneys will see those huge elephants in the room and they will be easy to hit.

The way I see it would be first to see if a claim can be substantiated. Not all that difficult under most conditions but watch out for some red flags (and elephants!):

Did you see an Orthopedic (hopefully board certified) or is that code for a chiropractor? Were your meds prescription or where they herbs? Back injuries are often difficult to quantify. To recover damages beyond your actual medical expenses may be difficult. Have you been functioning fine for the last three years? Do you know for certain your back isn't a result of common (very common) degenerative disease?

Typically, a lawyer will recieve 1/3 of any payout.

In the following dialog I am playing a role, none of it is personally how I feel:

If I was counsel for the other party I would argue that you are $$ driven by financial need, not medical need. Interesting how you waited three years and once you decided that BK might be in your future, you sue. Did I mention that there is a pre-existing medical condition of unknown origin?

Anyway, one thing that I would do is at least talk to a PI attorney. They work on "commission" so to speak. No collect, no pay (except a few hundred dollars for court costs) so you should get an idea at least if this will fly or not. I am fairly fluent in Civil Law but Tort is a whole other ballgame...Good luck.......

[anonymuse]

Did you see an Orthopedic (hopefully board certified) or is that code for a chiropractor? Were your meds prescription or where they herbs? Back injuries are often difficult to quantify. To recover damages beyond your actual medical expenses may be difficult. Have you been functioning fine for the last three years? Do you know for certain your back isn't a result of common (very common) degenerative disease?

I'm used to calling them Orthopods. Orthopedic surgeon (M.D.) and a D.O. is my general physician (board certified--not a chiropractor.) Real meds. Two spinal injections (believe me, there were real and maybe two more to go.) I have pre and post MRIs that are vastly different.

Thanks for you input.

anon