Complicated situation, need advice about a move abroad & leaving behind US Debt.

[Alsatian]

Hi, I'm a newbie here and would just like to say hello & thank-you to all the contributors on here, you're great.

I'm not sure exactly where to post this and whether the topic has been covered before, please redirect me if it has.

This is my situation:-

I have had a tragic loss in the family and now wish to move back to the UK (I am a Dual UK & US Citizen, Husband is a US Citizen).

House may break even if I can sell it or I may be able to negotiate a short sale. Husband still has job so we can essentially still pay all our bills. We own one car outright which we may be able to sell for approx $7,000 as we will desperately need that money to buy a car in the UK. The money in our savings account ($5,000) will cover flights, shipping some boxes and his spousal visa with nothing left after we do all that.

We own a boat which is upside down and a truck which is upside down, both our names are on those items.

We don't know what to do. Do we hand over the truck and boat (voluntary repossession) to the credit unions days before we leave and basically say that we have no job, no house and money to continue paying and walk away and hope they don't find us? OR

Do we hand them back earlier, have them auction them off and get a personal loan to cover the difference owing and then still walk away from the personal loan debt for the same reasons? OR

Do we negotiate a $25.00 monthly payment on both items which will take yrs to pay?

Do I declare bankruptcy? Husband had a bankruptcy discharged in Feb 2003 because of a divorce situation. Both our names are on the boat and the truck and I have never declared bankruptcy, my salary at the time of the loans has disappeared in this economy so I no longer contribute to the money coming into the house. My husbands job is safe for the time being and we can afford to pay the bills. We just want to leave the country to be close to family. I am miserable being alone without my friends and family. DH just isn't enough, sorry. He has agreed to come but we obviously are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If the house sold for enough profits I would pay off the differences but I don't think we will be able to after having to pay the realtors fees.

To justify having the excuse of not having the money to pay my hubby would have to quit his job a couple of weeks to a month before we leave with flights already in place.

My husband has a disability pension that I know can't be touched which we will live on in the UK to pay rent and utilities etc... If I am even able to get a job it will be a part-time minimum wage type of job. Will they even know where we are? Could they find us?

We are thinking that the boat could sell at auction for between $20-24,000 with us owing $31,000 and the truck would sell for goodness knows what $20,000 maybe, no-one seems to be buying trucks these days (2006 Dodge Ram 3500 Mega cab 4WD Manual, Diesel), we have $31,000 owing on that too. We hope we wouldn't have more than $20,000 debt outstanding if the house can break even. I know this is long winded but it is complicated. I don't want to be served in the UK suddenly or spend my life looking over my shoulder.

What would y'all do in my case?

[BigJohn]

My wife and I have thought about moving back overseas. If I were you, I would try settling as much as possible. I would sell the house. I would leave the boat and truck at the bank. Get them to sign for it, etc.

I would stop paying all bills for the next 3 -6 months. You are leaving in 3-6 months aren't you?

Will you need cash advances for moving expense?

As for telling people where you are going, I would not open that can of worms. If some insist, tell them Arizona near the Mexican border.

[Alsatian]

My wife and I have thought about moving back overseas. If I were you, I would try settling as much as possible. I would sell the house. I would leave the boat and truck at the bank. Get them to sign for it, etc.

I would stop paying all bills for the next 3 -6 months. You are leaving in 3-6 months aren't you?

Will you need cash advances for moving expense?

As for telling people where you are going, I would not open that can of worms. If some insist, tell them Arizona near the Mexican border.

Unfortunately we do not have a time frame, we have to wait for our precious German Shepherd to die, she is approaching 13yrs old this yr and is the equivalent to 100yrs old in human terms. She could leave us today or 1 yr from now although I believe she only has but a couple of months if she is lucky. Horrendous spinal arthritis, edema in two legs and getting worse by the day and last week it was found she had a massive abdominal mass. She really doesn't have long left. It is painful to watch her like this but she still likes to eat and play ball with hubby so putting her to sleep isn't an option until she won't do either of those things anymore.

Of course the time frame also depends on the house selling also, good luck in this market.

We have the funds in savings to account for shipping our boxes (selling furniture and electronics), our flights (hopefully, prices can differ from day to day and how far in advance you book) and his spousal visa. Everything we save from now on is a bonus including a paid off car. We will need every penny we have for a house rental deposit and a car.

Why would you stop paying all bills? Just curious.

Couldn't we keep everything up to date and then just hand the boat and truck back the day before we fly out, voluntary repo. Do you have to show that you are having problems, because if that is the case then hubby would have to quit his job to show that we can't pay bills anymore. Right now we can, we just want to leave the country.

Only some friends & family members know of our plans. We wouldn't dream of telling the bank, credit unions etc.

We just figured that we would close all CC's (we don't owe any money on them), close our B of A checking and savings accounts and just leave. We would then have DH's Pension Check sent to us abroad.

[BigJohn]

I had a dog once that was sick like yours. I know how it feels. One day he was just in too much misery so I did what I thought was right.

If you are going to settle all of your bills, that is fine, but if you are going to leave behind debts, might as well leave a good size debt.

You might want to get a little extra money for settling in expenses and other expenses when you leave.

[Alsatian]

I had a dog once that was sick like yours. I know how it feels. One day he was just in too much misery so I did what I thought was right.

If you are going to settle all of your bills, that is fine, but if you are going to leave behind debts, might as well leave a good size debt.

You might want to get a little extra money for settling in expenses and other expenses when you leave.

I guess I'm just curious as to how easily the credit unions or collectors (if the debt is sold) will find me and DH.

My brother (when he was living in Dubai) knew of a girl who while in Dubai got herself into a load of debt and then promptly walked away by leaving the country and moving to Hong Kong. They caught up with her and she is now serving time in prison in Hong Kong.

That story has my family a bit worried about us walking away. How easy is it to find someone if there is no activity on CC's, Bank Accounts or on your Social Security Number. We will by law have to file US Tax Returns every year.

[sassiebaz]

What is your income like? Can you just file a chapter 7 before you leave?

[Alsatian]

What is your income like? Can you just file a chapter 7 before you leave?

I have zero income, DH supports me fully.

DH had his Bankruptcy discharged in Feb 2003 and I have never filed.

Both our names are on the truck & boat.

Can I file just including these two items (I have no CC debt and a mortgage of $220,000 but we should be able to break even if we can get a buyer) and what would happen as DH's name is also on the liens but he cannot file again so soon.

[sassiebaz]

I'm no expert, but it depends on what your DH makes and what your living expenses are. There is a whole formula to it all. I would consult with an attorney. We have a chapter 7 from 2003 as well. Because our income will be under the median, and we have plenty of allowable expenses we won't end up paying much more than the cost of an attorney and the trustee to file a chapter 13. Now, that may be an option for you. I'm not sure what the housing market is where you are, but I wouldn't bet on anything when it comes to trying to sell a house in the next few years. Just my opinion. The other thing is, I'm not sure you can file a 13 and then leave the country, as you would have a 3-5 year payback plan to the trustee. Then again, you may be able to just walk away assuming they never find you. Even if they did find you, the most they could do would be garnish your wages and I would think that would be almost impossible across international waters.....How is credit determined overseas? Is it at all related to the the way we do it here in the US? Or completely separate? My guess is it's separate so maybe you have nothing to worry about. If they aren't putting people in jail here when WE default on our financial obligations, how could they if you weren't even in this country????

[Alsatian]

I'm no expert, but it depends on what your DH makes and what your living expenses are. There is a whole formula to it all. I would consult with an attorney. We have a chapter 7 from 2003 as well. Because our income will be under the median, and we have plenty of allowable expenses we won't end up paying much more than the cost of an attorney and the trustee to file a chapter 13. Now, that may be an option for you. I'm not sure what the housing market is where you are, but I wouldn't bet on anything when it comes to trying to sell a house in the next few years. Just my opinion. The other thing is, I'm not sure you can file a 13 and then leave the country, as you would have a 3-5 year payback plan to the trustee. Then again, you may be able to just walk away assuming they never find you. Even if they did find you, the most they could do would be garnish your wages and I would think that would be almost impossible across international waters.....How is credit determined overseas? Is it at all related to the the way we do it here in the US? Or completely separate? My guess is it's separate so maybe you have nothing to worry about. If they aren't putting people in jail here when WE default on our financial obligations, how could they if you weren't even in this country????

After doing some research, bankruptcy isn't an option..............

So I guess it finally comes down to three ways.............

1. The house sells for a profit and we manage to pay off the upside down amounts.

2. We take a risk and walk away and hope to be never found or found after the SOL. What is the SOL on Truck and Boat payments not being paid after a voluntary repo.

3. We hand back the truck and boat, have them auction them off, get a personal loan from each of the credit unions to cover the difference and pay them off eventually. This would be feasible for a decent amount but I was reading that those type of loans typically only run for 2/3 yrs and there is no way we could afford to pay the monthly amounts. Having just looked at both of the credit unions loan rates for a personal loan I can now easily say it wouldn't be doable with their rates of 12% - 18%. I put in a calculator $10,000 over 3 years @ 15% = $350.00 per month. Do that twice over and you are at $700 per month over 3 yrs. I'd like to know how they are going to get that amount from us when we would essentially be living with an exchange rate not favorable to us on a fixed pension which cannot be touched.

So # 3. is out. I think what we will have to do if the house doesn't sell or we can't get what we need is to walk away and when we arrive at our destination we can then look for work, hopefully one or both of us can get some work. We will then open a savings account and keep putting money away until we have enough to cover the amounts outstanding so if they ever find us we can try and settle the debt. If the SOL comes first then we have saved some decent money for something else. If they find us much quicker then they will have to take us to court because the chances are I won't be earning much and my dh's pension can't be touched and he won't be earning much if any at all.

I guess in a way I have answered my original question haven't I?

I do have one or two more though:-

What is the SOL on a secured debt like the truck and boat. You drop them off voluntarily to save them money and then they auction them off and you are liable for the difference. By the time they get together the personal loan details we are gone.

Can you literally hand the boat & truck back a couple of days before you leave the country or would you have to hand them back sooner as they would have to sign something wouldn't they.

Has anyone on here done a voluntary repo? Could you tell me how to go about doing it and the time frame and what is involved?

Edited after doing some more research.

So I have been reading up on Voluntary Repos, most people say don't do it. Try to sell private first and deal with the lender as you will get a better price. At the end of the day, if I still have to walk away from some debt it makes no difference whether it is a secured (boat/truck loan) or unsecured (personal loan) debt does it?

I guess my beautiful boat is going back up for sale. Nearly had a sale a few weeks back.....what's the chance of that buyer still looking.

[BigJohn]

If you leave the country, the SOL limitations stop. But, if you make it seem like you still are in the country, then it sorta doesn't stop. I left the country but maintained a shell of 'an existance' in the States.

[Alsatian]

If you leave the country, the SOL limitations stop. But, if you make it seem like you still are in the country, then it sorta doesn't stop. I left the country but maintained a shell of 'an existance' in the States.

What do you mean by a "shell of existence". Can you give me an idea about what I would need to do.

Why would the SOL limitations stop? How would they know where you are and whether or not you are in the USA?

[Aaaaah!]

You might want to check out earthclassmail.com -- they will scan all mail (and you can view it over the Internet in the UK.)

I might also get a grandcentral.com number or some US-based number so that you can continue to receive phone calls.

I think both of these things will help create that "shell" of life in the US. I think with the purpose being that creditors -- if they think you're in the US -- won't think to pursue you elsewhere.

Other than that, I agree with what everyone's saying. Stop paying bills; save the money -- the UK seems in an even more precarious state than the US is, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that everything will work out for you.

[Alsatian]

OK lets break this down in bite sized pieces. First question will you ever be returning to US?

I ask for this for a reason, there is no debtors prison in the US, so no you can't go to jail for any debts you incurred here.

OK, lets deal with one issue at a time. First, you should find a way to keep aware of what is going on. Not that you will do anything about it, but its still nice to know what is happening. I would locate a mail center like one of the private PO Box places and get a PO Box and give everyone that PO Box as your new mailing address. Prepay in advance and first find out if they (for a fee) will once a month forward all your mail to the UK via FedEx or UPS in a small box. Generally they will do this, you just have to call and have them box it up and pay for the shipping via a CC and have them ship it to a FedEx or UPS shipping center in the UK and then you go pick it and they will call you when it arrives (this way no one ever knows where you really are). At this point no one knows you left the US and you are still not a skip (meaning all the mail gets returned to them sooner or later after you leave and they figure out you left). The PO Box place can only give out your information they have under a subpoena and what info do they have if you were to use a prepaid Visa to pay for everything. All they know is you call and they ship your mail to a FedEx center in the UK and you have a cell phone number in the UK. Not a whole lot to find anyone with now is it. (This is really way over kill, but sometimes it makes people sleep better.) OK I am getting in way to deep on how to hide (this works well in the US also)...LOL

OK, the truck and boat, stop paying on them now and save your money. I would not bother trying to sell them your in too deep and won't get anything. Cancel the insurance and just set a date, drive them to the CU when they are open and give them the keys and say, have a nice day. Do when it when it works best for you. It doesn't have to be right before you leave it can be done sooner or you can do it on your way to the airport....LOL Either way it won't matter. It will take them months to sell them and get a deficiency balance and then try to come after you for it.

With housing market the way it is right now, I don't know how much time you have to try to sell the house. But the market is so soft right now it might be tough. If your not behind on the house by at least six to nine months and basically in a pre-foreclosure status no one is going to even want to try to talk to you about short-sale. Best bet on the house, stop making payments and save that money. Contact the lender a month or so before you plan to leave and do a deed-in-lieu of foreclosure. I am not sure if your in a judicial state (mean you can be stuck with the deficient balance) or deed of trust state where there is no deficiency balance on a foreclosure. Basically you are giving the lender the house back. Once you do that, you shut off the power, water and stuff, lock the door and leave. Its not your problem anymore.

Stop paying on all your credit cards, use them as you need, and save all your money.

So now the big question what can happen. Well basically nothing. You will probably end up being sued by publication so you would end up with judgments against you. It doesn't really matter since once you leave the US the SOL does stop while your gone. But on the other hand again it really doesn't matter. The important thing is to keep a list of your creditors and what you owe. If you ever return to the US you can file BK and get the judgments vacated. This is why you keep a list so you know who to list later in a BK.

If you really never plan to return and live in the US then really nothing much can or will happen to you that I am aware of.

Plus at some point if you wanted to clean this mess up I suppose you could hire an attorney have them do all the BK paper work and you just would have to fly in and be here for the 341 meeting. I really have no idea how the law works on BK if your outside the US if you want to file. A question I never needed to know...LOL But my guess is, there is no need to worry and if you return to the US you can always file BK then. Most people think you can run out the SOL but that is not true. So the worst is you end up with judgments against you. One thing is that other than the judgments your credit report will only show those after seven years.

But again, if you don't really ever plan on comming back to live, then you don't have a thing to worry about. The amount you owe is really pretty minimal actually.

I don't plan on coming back to the US to live but my husband probably would if something were to happen to me. Why would he stay in a foreign country when he would have all his family back in the USA. So one can never say never.

We will be returning for vacations and my husband has free medical coverage for life and may return for yearly medicals (which would be preferable is we could could afford him to fly out every year).

My husband also has a pension that will be sent to him every month. We don't know whether to keep open one bank account and draw out two daily maximums every month or to have the check sent abroad and deposited into a foreign bank a/c. We will have to file US Taxes by law every year, don't want to go down the route of tax evasion.

We were planning on not having mail forwarded and just leaving. Why do I need to have mail forwarded? If it is just to know what is going on with the debt then I don't see the point in knowing.

Why would I stop paying on everything? I would have thought it was better to have as little as debt as possible and by selling the truck and boat privately I would get a better price and know where I stand ahead of time with the amount that I would owe in deficiency.

As for the house, there is nothing I can do about that, if prices fall anymore then we are in a bind and I may have to start foreclosure proceedings. I don't don't see how I can justify that when we are able to pay the bills. DH still has his job and we don't see him losing it in the near future (I guess you never know). We would just be upside down and that would be that.

The primary method of foreclosure in our state involves what is known as non-judicial foreclosure. The lenders can also go to court in what is known as a judicial foreclosure proceeding where the court must issue a final judgment of foreclosure. If the deed of trust does not contain the power of sale language, the lender must seek judicial foreclosure. The property is then sold as part of a publicly noticed sale. A complaint is filed in court along with what is known a lis pendens. A lis pendens is a recorded document that provides public notice that the property is being foreclosed upon. Depending on the timing of the various required notices, it usually takes approximately 180 days to effectuate an uncontested non-judicial foreclosure.

- Judicial Foreclosure Available: Yes
- Non-Judicial Foreclosure Available: Yes
- Primary Security Instruments: Deed of Trust, Mortgage
- Timeline: Typically 180 days
- Right of Redemption: Yes
- Deficiency Judgments Allowed: Yes

Would a Credit Union be likely to do a deal prior to us being late on the payments for the differences for a lot less money over a longer period of time. So if my payments were to be approx $350 @15% over 3 yrs on each item (assuming of course I could sell the boat and truck and have the differences owing, getting a personal loan), would they extend the yrs out, lower the payments considerably just so they know they are getting money from you and then once you get established abroad and get work (if possible) you could then increase your amounts being paid. I mean lower the payments down to approx $50 on each. We would be living on a pension that couldn't be touched so they wouldn't get a dime through court or garnishment or any other way. Surely it would be in their best interests to work something out.

[Alsatian]

You might want to check out earthclassmail.com -- they will scan all mail (and you can view it over the Internet in the UK.)

I might also get a grandcentral.com number or some US-based number so that you can continue to receive phone calls.

I think both of these things will help create that "shell" of life in the US. I think with the purpose being that creditors -- if they think you're in the US -- won't think to pursue you elsewhere.

Other than that, I agree with what everyone's saying. Stop paying bills; save the money -- the UK seems in an even more precarious state than the US is, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that everything will work out for you.

Thanks for the links, I'll look into them. I guess I'm still confused as why I need to get mail and now maybe calls. Do I really need to let them think I'm still in the states. How will they know where to start looking for me.

[BigJohn]

What do you mean by a "shell of existence". Can you give me an idea about what I would need to do.

Why would the SOL limitations stop? How would they know where you are and whether or not you are in the USA?

If you have your mail sent to you, the 'shell of existence" in the US may not work and the SOL will stop while out of the country.

With me, I had 3 'shells of existence'. One on the east coast with a relative. The second one was a rented post box (not from the Postal Service) in which I gave the Street address and number (like an apartment number). The third one I used was a corporation in which I hid for years under the Federal Employee ID number. In my credit report, all 3 addresses show up as being valid addresses. My foreign address, which I lived at for several years, never did showed up on my credit report. None of my credit cards had there SOL stopped.