If you pass the means test, what else will they look at?

[SinkingFast]

Some of you guys that can afford lawyers, don't have many kids or none at all. some of you guys have assets to pull from. So it is easy for you guys to be like stop paying your cc bills because some of guys have are paying $1000s amonth. Usually the ones that file pro se just don't have it.

Just because we paid attnys does not mean we can any better afford to pay one than anyone else here.

We too are a family of 6. Three older teens and an ailing, aged parent. If you think wee ones are expensive, you should try paying auto insurance with teenaged drivers. I'll trade buying diapers and formula for that any day. Little kids, little expenses. Big kids, big expenses.

While we were paying bills, our house payment and our rent alone added up to 75% of our Net income/month. That's not counting $3K/month CC minumums we were paying. And, that's also not counting monthly living expenses. Food, utilities, gasoline, etc.

We continued to pay all our bills until we ran out of savings, ran thru retirement monies, and sold every major asset we had that would bring any money.

When we quit paying our Creditors, our monthly living expenses were pretty much as our Schedule J said. +$11/month.

The first attny we Consulted told us how many of his Clients pay his fee. They make a payment to him every payday until they get the fee paid.

I've seen people post on the Forum that they sell things on eBay. Hold yard sales and garage sales. We're not talking big assets. We're talking clothes the kids have out grown. Toys the kids don't use any more. The extra TV. Furniture. An old instrument from back when they were in the band in High School.

Look back thru the old posts. Someone started a thread titled something like "Ah! Doritos". They'd been living on beans and rice and Raman noodles so long that the taste of Doritos was a huge treat.

We're all Bankrupt here.

No one of us has a spare $1K-$2K to pay anyone for anything. Some of us need to find ways to make it happen. Sometimes it's a nickel here or a dime there. But eventually, it all adds up.

[freshstart06]

Telling people that really don't have the money to hire a lawyer because I was able to do it is like someone that has worse debt then you, many months behind on mortgage, cc, you name but did not file BK. They can also say, they got themselves out of the hole without filing BK so you can too. You can't judge another persons situation because you could do it.

they can also say they got three or four jobs, stop eating, sold their cars, to pay of their debts. What you are saying is not different then paople that has worse debt but opt not to file and overcame their debt in other means judging us.

[lrprn]

Telling people that really don't have the money to hire a lawyer because I was able to do it is like someone that has worse debt then you, many months behind on mortgage, cc, you name but did not file BK. They can also say, they got themselves out of the hole without filing BK so you can too. You can't judge another persons situation because you could do it.

FS, go back and re-read what SF and I said in this thread very carefully. We're just stating the facts....that overall people that file bankruptcy with lawyers have less problems than people that file pro se. Those are the facts. We aren't judging anyone's choice either way.

What you said works both ways. Just because you were able to file pro se doesn't mean that everyone can or should either.

Bottom line is that it isn't fair to allow new members here who are just learning about bankruptcy to think that filing pro se is is a slam dunk and paying a lawyer is a waste of money - it isn't. And it also isn't fair to allow new members to think that paying to file with a lawyer will guarantee a problem-free case - it won't. SF and I are trying to help new members understand the realities of both choices.

Just because we tell filers thinking of filing pro se that they could have problems is not a criticism of you making the choice to file pro se. You made the choice that's right for you and we support that 100%. We're just balancing the scorecard to show filers both sides of the fence, that's all. That's our job as moderators and that's what we will continue to do here.

[freshstart06]

I understand Lrprn, I really respect your opinion, you are like the mother of the board, you support us but get in our case if we are about to make a mistake. Because I am a pro se filer, I am not telling people to do it but if you have to don't feel bad. You can't imagine how some of pro se feel, it is bad enough that we got to this point and can't afford a lawyer, then we come on this board for help and advice and are told "we did it, we sacrificed" Some of us really and truly hit rock bottom.

So when I see post like that I want to reassure the pro se filers to not feel bad, there are some of us out there that has done it and succeed. If you read my post you will always note that I mention if you have assets or something to lost get a lawyer.

The main reason we find these type of groups is for support. Most of us are scared out of their mind so if a pro se newbie comes aboard the last thing they need to hear is "we were able to get a lawyer, you should be able to, or you could fail" I invite them to reread previous post of pro se filers and see that no all failed and some with laywers filed so don't feel bad.

Again, how would we all feel if all the people that don't file BK told us we will fail, I did not file BK and was able to do it. That statement would not be true about failing, at least, but that is not encouraging.....

[6ftladycop]

RE: Standing up for Pro Se Filers 2

I was a bit surprised at all the post concerning a thumbs up or thumbs down for pro se filers. So I will throw my two cents in and just say this, I agree with just about everything that has been said about pro se filers be it bador good because there is a situation and example for everything written here, but you can not make a decision about all pro se filers based on this persons bad experience or that persons bad experience. All of the experiences are unique.

One thing I will say about this site is this.....I had absolutely no idea what the heck I was doing when I first made up my mind to file bankruptcy. I tossed and turned, I loss weight, I could not sleep and I could not eat. My work suffered, my personality changed and I was a mess, but the day I came to this website and after many days of nothing but reading all of your post and then posting finally myself, I can honestly saythat you guys have helped me more than any lawyer I could have ever had.

Each process you discussed went just as all of you stated. Each term you used was just as it was meant to be used. Each book you suggested was so very helpful especially when I filed pro se. I felt like I was a lawyer and because as you stated I had a no asset straight chapter 7 without all the complications, it was real easy. My own mistake cost me 26.00 dollars, but other than that, the bankruptcy lawyer who sits at the bankruptcy court helpdesk helping all the pro se filers told me that I was getting some really good information because I come prepared each and every time I am in her office. Now that made me feel real good and all of that is because of you guys.

I hate to see us disagree. I have learned so much from all of you. Everybody here has always been so helpful and nobody has ever been mean or nasty to anyone because I think we all realize that we are in the same boat. Hopefully any mistakes, any wrong information or any situations that seem large will be addressed here and hopefully all that come to this site will see it just as I have, like having hundreds of lawyers at your disposal.....

[BKTango]

I understand Lrprn, I really respect your opinion, you are like the mother of the board, you support us but get in our case if we are about to make a mistake. Because I am a pro se filer, I am not telling people to do it but if you have to don't feel bad. You can't imagine how some of pro se feel, it is bad enough that we got to this point and can't afford a lawyer, then we come on this board for help and advice and are told "we did it, we sacrificed" Some of us really and truly hit rock bottom.

So when I see post like that I want to reassure the pro se filers to not feel bad, there are some of us out there that has done it and succeed. If you read my post you will always note that I mention if you have assets or something to lost get a lawyer.

The main reason we find these type of groups is for support. Most of us are scared out of their mind so if a pro se newbie comes aboard the last thing they need to hear is "we were able to get a lawyer, you should be able to, or you could fail" I invite them to reread previous post of pro se filers and see that no all failed and some with laywers filed so don't feel bad.

Again, how would we all feel if all the people that don't file BK told us we will fail, I did not file BK and was able to do it. That statement would not be true about failing, at least, but that is not encouraging.....

No offence FS, and I do mean non what-so-ever. BUT....how did you pay the bills that you are discharging before filing? I assume there was money to do so. Whether people file pro se or with a lawyer it is that persons decision. There are ups and downs, pros and cons to both sides. But to continue to exclaim that you cannot sacrifice or afford even payments to an attorney doesn't make sense. You openly admitted you spend $200 a month on dance classes and after school activities for your children, I suggested you could use that money to make payments for a lawyer SHOULD you choose you needed one, especially being over the median and you chewed my hind end off for even suggesting such a thing lol. Some people decide that maybe those after school activities and such can wait a few months and use that money. It's their choice. Just like it's your choice to not use it or any of the money that would go on food or entertainment or something. Like I said before and SF, lrprn and many others have said, if you truly feel you need an attorney the money is there and most people will find a way to get it. Alot of folks don't need an attorney and that's great! I wish really all people that file pro se would have it easy, just like it would be nice for those that filed with an attorney to never encounter a problem. I will say I have yet to see someone post on this board telling any pro se filer or someone thinking of it that they better get a lawyer or they will fail unless they have clearly stated their facts and a few people will know immediately that they will have a problem with certian issues in their case. No offence like I said, but the mods and other people are never on a personal attack of you or the pro se filers. It's only advice and support or actual personal knowledge being offered. With the occiasional praise, thoughts, and a stern talking to when warrented lol.

[freshstart06]

BKtango, this will be my last post on this.... first of all, my kids dance was $100 (lawyer fees are like $2000 before you file, add up how many $100 I would have to save to get $2000) a month and to be honest I stop paying that back in May along with school activities but school acitivities are important and that amount varies. Since you don't live in my home or know what I spend you can't judge. We can pay our normal everyday expenses but not exceed that. I have a lot of medical bills.

Bktango, why did you file BK when you could have just worked a few jobs or took out a debt consolidation loan instead of BK??? From what I understand your credit was pretty good right???? Just wondering...

AGAIN....I AM NOT TELLING OR ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO FILE PRO SE, I AM SUPPORTING THE ONES THAT DO, NOT TO FEEL BAD BECAUSE SOMETIMES THIS BOARD MAKES US FEEL BAD BECAUSE WE COULD NOT AFFORD A LAWYER. BKTANGO JUST LIKE YOU COULD NOT AFFORD TO CONTINUE TO PAY YOUR DEBTS (JUST LIKE I CAN'T) I AND OTHER PRO SE COULD NOT AFFORD TO PAY FOR A LAWYER. YES, WE CAN PAY FOR EVERYTHING ELSE JUST FINE.... IF YOU FORGOT MY FAMILY WAS ABOUT TO BE HOMELESS.

SORRY EVERYONE..... THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT BUT I DO NOT FEEL AS A PRO SE FILER THAT THIS BOARD IS FOR ME. ANYONE THAT READS THESE POST CAN TELL PRO SE DOES GET JUDGE!!! HOW DARE SOME PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD HAVE THE NERVE TO JUDGE??

I WISH YOU GUYS ALL THE LUCK.....

[danaf]

BKtango, I don't care how many lol's you put in your post, from my perspective, it did come off a bit judgemental and that isn't what this board is supposed to be about. It's really none of your business in how FS prioritizes her finances where it concerns her family and basically, you did attack her. I don't have children but to be honest with you, I can't disagree with her. Why feed a lawyers family when you should be taking care of your own. Every bk story is different, everyone has different priorities....what works for one may not work for another - and if you are going to go pro-se, it is possible to be successful if you do your homework. That's all she was trying to say. What is the point in being judgemental and pushing buttons when peoples lives are already stressed out to the max? I'm sure you meant well but not everyone has the gift of diplomacy.

FS has done her homework (above and beyond) and what she needs is good vibes. She is a good contributer on this board and I hope she changes her mind and continue to post. She needs this board just as much as the rest of us do. And those of us that have been following her posts needs to know she is ok.

This is a great site. The moderators do an awesome job. But it is also up to the members to maintain the integrity that should be as well as camaraderie amongst ourselves. Because at the end of the day, we are all in the same boat.

[BKTango]

"Bktango, why did you file BK when you could have just worked a few jobs or took out a debt consolidation loan instead of BK??? From what I understand your credit was pretty good right???? Just wondering..."


I am a stay at home mother, that is my job. If I worked outside of the home, with gas prices being what they are and more than likely being able to only make minimum wage...add that do then having to pay for day care cost. Well that those costs would cancel out the income. We spent quite some time in a dept management program, then in a debt settlement program, and then tried consolidating into a plan with CCCS. Those payments were more than what we orignally were paying. And my credit was pretty shot not good lol. I just posted about all of this in another post. We tried several options and other opportunities before bankrutpcy.

[BKTango]

BKtango, I don't care how many lol's you put in your post, from my perspective, it did come off a bit judgemental and that isn't what this board is supposed to be about. It's really none of your business in how FS prioritizes her finances where it concerns her family and basically, you did attack her. I don't have children but to be honest with you, I can't disagree with her. Why feed a lawyers family when you should be taking care of your own. Every bk story is different, everyone has different priorities....what works for one may not work for another - and if you are going to go pro-se, it is possible to be successful if you do your homework. That's all she was trying to say. What is the point in being judgemental and pushing buttons when peoples lives are already stressed out to the max? I'm sure you meant well but not everyone has the gift of diplomacy.

FS has done her homework (above and beyond) and what she needs is good vibes. She is a good contributer on this board and I hope she changes her mind and continue to post. She needs this board just as much as the rest of us do. And those of us that have been following her posts needs to know she is ok.

This is a great site. The moderators do an awesome job. But it is also up to the members to maintain the integrity that should be as well as camaraderie amongst ourselves. Because at the end of the day, we are all in the same boat.

I thank you for you input. I am sorry you see it that way. I was not attacking anyone. Just merely stating the facts. It goes both ways. In the past every post I answered of FS's offering support or advice was met with defense. Even if I was answering someone else's post. Again I apologize. Maybe it's time I move on.

[lrprn]

FreshStart06 - "...I DO NOT FEEL AS A PRO SE FILER THAT THIS BOARD IS FOR ME."

BKTango - "Maybe it's time I move on."

Whoa, everybody....back to neutral corners.

It's hard to see things objectively when each person feels their position is the right one and no one is listening. Feelings are being hurt here so this discussion is now closed to further posting.

Time to agree to disagree, shake virtual hands, and get back to our main business - sharing solid information, helping each other as our worlds are crumbling around us, and being supportive of each other. This board is not a contest to see who is the most broke or the most deserving to file bankruptcy - we all are.