If you pass the means test, what else will they look at?

[Dirk Squarejaw]

I took the online Means Test and filled out everything as well as I could. I'm single/divorced and about $7k/year over Indiana's median income level. However, after taking the means test, it shows that I pass as I have a disposable income of -$392/mo.

I don't have much as far as assets. I've got a '98 Triumph that is worth about $4k but would be covered under the state's exemptions, my car is upside down about $1k, and I've got a home equity loan that eats up most of my house's equity and what isn't easily fits within the state's exemption for homestead.

I was going to try to get with a lawyer or two this week, but I took over another lab here at school due to a retirement and I've been getting my classroom and this other lab re-arranged the way I want and haven't had time. Plus, I need to wait until mid-November to file due to the 90/70 lookback period. A lawyer in the area will know best, but what have your experiences been if you were over the median on income?

[keepmine]

Many have been able to file a Chapter 7 once they worked through the schedules and deducted their living expenses from income.
All passing the means test does is, say that the presumption of abuse does not exist. Nobody knows for sure what their fate may be until they work through the schedules.

[lrprn]

I took the online Means Test and filled out everything as well as I could.

When you are an over-median-income filer, it's good practice to fill out the Means Test and Schedules yourself to get an idea of where you are going to fall, DS. The only problem is that there's quite a bit of variability is what your local court and trustees will accept on the non-mandated expenses side of things and what is included on the income side can sometimes be different as well. What may be perfectly logical to you may not be perfectly logical to your trustee - we have a lot of examples here that illustrate this.

Over the last 18 months we've watched several major crash and burns here by over-median filers trying to file without a lawyer or just with a paralegal because they didn't understand the unique aspects of the bankruptcy culture in their district. My personal recommendation is that unless you are willing to do a tremendous amount of research into bankruptcy to understand it almost as thoroughly as a lawyer does, you are far better off working with an experienced bankruptcy lawyer who is familiar with the ins and outs of what is accepted in your district.

There are folks here who say they absolutely cannot afford a lawyer and I can appreciate that. However if you know you are going to file bankruptcy, you can stop paying your non-secured credit cards and loans right now, then use that money instead to pay a lawyer's retainer. Typically you can not pay for 5-6 months and other than your phone ringing off the hook from creditors and eventually collectors, you are 99% safe from court action unless you are far in arrears already.

Most bankruptcy lawyers provide free initial consultations, so make appointments with 3-4 in your area. You'll find out a great deal about your situation and also have a chance to see how each lawyer interacts with you. Even if you decide to try filing on your own (pro se), it's still a very worthwhile experience. One of our current members, FreshStart06, is an above-median pro se filer - I'm sure she'll chime in here with her experiences. Her 341 meeting is coming up soon.

Keep us posted on what you decide to do, and ask questions as they occur to you - we'll help you as much as we can. Hang in there and welcome to the forum!

[BurgerKingVII]

What I'm hearing is that the U.S. Trustee is scrutinizing BK7 filings from people who are above the median income, but pass the means test. They're looking for expenses that could be challenged in order to get the disposable income high enough to force the debtor into a BK13.

[Dirk Squarejaw]

I will definitely be getting a lawyer. A fellow Hoosier PM'd me with a recommendation and I have a recommendation from a friend of mine. Both lawyers are in Indy so I am going to try to make a day out of it sometime and take the afternoon off at work and go talk with them.

Are these "schedules" available online? Are they easy to figure out? I'd like to fill them out on my own just to see where I stand. I'm crossing my fingers for a 7.

[lrprn]

I will definitely be getting a lawyer. A fellow Hoosier PM'd me with a recommendation and I have a recommendation from a friend of mine.

Personal recommendations is a great way to find good lawyers. Glad you have two to meet with already!

Are these "schedules" available online? Are they easy to figure out?

About as easy as filing long-form taxes when you aren't an tax accountant Seriously, the Schedules are filled out only if on the Means Test you must check the second option on Line 15 at the end of Part III and the third option on Line 52 almost at the end of Part IV. If you are filling out Schedules, then chances are you are probably going to be filing Ch 13.

If you'd still like to see them, here's a link to Schedules A-J - http://www.ianb.uscourts.gov/dbpf.html - just click the link on the far right to see each one.

[BurgerKingVII]

You can download the official forms in PDF format here. Strictly speaking, the means test isn't one of the Schedules; rather, it's Form B 22A.

If you need an explanation of the forms in plain English, Nolo's How to File for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy is quite popular among the folks on this forum. I bought a copy of it to give myself a crash course on BK law, since it's not one of my practice areas, and I thought it was well worth the $25.

[Dirk Squarejaw]

Looking at the online means test and the PDF file that I have, everything lines up as far as line numbers. It appears that I would check the 2nd option on line 15 "The Amount on line 13 is more than line 14", but would be checking the first option on line 52 "The amount on line 51 is less than $6000" which I guess means that I make more than the median, but could not repay at least $6k in a chapter 13. My estimated repayment on the online calculator is -$23520 over 60mo. I'm really hoping that this whole chapter 7 thing works out. I'd much rather be able to start fresh and start rebuilding my credit in a few months than a few years while not getting back into my old over-spending habits.

[CityGirl]

It's so funny how everyone crosses their fingers for a 7. I wanted a 13. It makes me feel good I'm paying back what I charged, AND It'll be off my CR 3 years sooner!!! I also don't have to worry about fraud as much!! I feel so good filing 13 that a 7 scares the crap outta me!!!

[freshstart06]

I don't know Lrprn.... that the pro se filers are having problems, heck in the last two or three weeks along not to mention a few months back, any newbie can check the post and the ones having problems are the ones with Lawyers. I think it was just 3 or 4 pro se filers just discharged and close. From what I have read the pro se filers that had problems (not recently, I mean post like last year) is over something small but because they did not take the time to educate themselves enough they made major mistakes. I even read where some people that used lawyers wished they would not have some even fired their lawyer and went pro se discharged and closed.

90-95% of the filers are over the median. I will say this, if you have something to lose ie, assets or home some thing you want to keep then it is worth hiring a lawyer but if someone is broke because they have been drained for years, no assets and must go pro se, don't be afraid to do it. Hiring a lawyer does not guarantee your case will discharge and close, heck they can make it worse and not only not call you back but not return your money... imagine being in that situation....

So anyone person reading these boards do what you feel you have to do, either to hire a lawyer or go pro se, you have to do what "YOU" feel is best without having to feel bad because you could not "sacrifice" food to feed your family or paying utility bills, rent to pay a lawyer, if you afford a lawyer you just can't. But if you if someone opts to go pro se, educate yourself. The court clerks are very helpful and will lead you to the resources if you don't understand. There are some lawyers that will answers question for free.

any choice made is not right or wrong.

[freshstart06]

citygirl, I think we cross our fingers because we really need for chpt 7 to go through. We just don't have to money anymore to pay off debt and maintain everyday expenses. I can understand you wanted to pay back, that is very good. Some of us just don't have the disposable income to do that, we run out of options.

[SinkingFast]

Fresh,............... The Pro Se filers here are not indicative of Pro Se filers as a whole. People who come here work to educate themselves. They buy the books. They read about potential pitfalls. Most have straight forward, below the Median, no questions asked, No Asset, Ch 7 BK's.

Our attny told us at our 341 Meeting in Oct, '06,........ In our Court here,........ Not one Pro Se filer had made it yet. Every Pro Se case filed to that time had been Dismissed. Errors in the Petition, or the Schedules, or the Means Test. Some people didn't get their Credit Counseling Certs prior to filing.

You know attnys. He coulda been exaggerating. So I checked it out on PACER. Had a look see for myself. He wasn't kidding. No Pro Se Filer had brought a case to Discharge by the end of '06 in our Court here. A few had even brought in attnys at the 11th hour to try and salvage their BK's and couldn't.

Also, some Pro Se filers posting on the Forum get help from their Court Clerk's office. If something is missing, the Clerk points it out. If there's an obvious error, the Clerk points it out. Not all Court Clerk's offices are that nice.

According to our attny, the Clerks here aren't screening Pro Se Filer's paperwork for them. Pointing out the errors or what's needed. The Clerks accept the Petitions. File what's submitted. When the case is Dismissed, the Clerks simply say, "There was a problem with your paperwork." We got the impression that was some sort of "Order" from above. A "Don't help the Pro Se Filers" type of comment from the Clerk of the Court's Office.

We are thrilled for those of you who do make it on your own. But the reality is,.......... For every one of you posting here that does successfully file Pro Se,........... Many others do fall by the wayside.

And it's easy to say that most of the people here with problems were people who hired attnys. That's just statistics. Most of the people posting here hired attnys.

[CityGirl]

citygirl, I think we cross our fingers because we really need for chpt 7 to go through. We just don't have to money anymore to pay off debt and maintain everyday expenses. I can understand you wanted to pay back, that is very good. Some of us just don't have the disposable income to do that, we run out of options.

I understand that and I guess that's why I work so much and scraped to find enough money for an attorney. I can't deal with the stress of filing pro-se. I hate to think..LOL

[lrprn]

Agree with SF....our pro se filers here are the cream of the crop! Definitely not the norm.

And it's easy to say that most of the people here with problems were people who hired attnys. That's just statistics. Most of the people posting here hired attnys.

Very true. Also Ch 7 filers with lawyers whose cases go smoothly don't come here at all or don't post much because they don't need our help sorting out problems - their lawyers made sure they didn't have any! (lucky ducks! )

However when a filer with a lawyer does have problems with their case, they are far more likely to come to BK Forum and ask tons of questions. These folks tend to have complex cases or they had the misfortune of hiring one of the few bk lawyers who are not as knowledgeable or as competent as they should be. This makes it seem like there are a high number of filers using lawyers having problems when in reality the number is actually quite small.

Combine a much higher number than normal "cream of the crop" pro se filers with a much higher number of "problems with lawyer" filers and it creates a skewed impression here in the forum that pro se filers tend to do well and folks with lawyers tend not to. It's just not true.

Bankruptcy statistics gathered on the state and national level since the 1980s have proven repeatedly that when *all* pro se filers are compared to *all* filers with lawyers, a far higher percentage of pro se cases have problems and are dismissed than cases filed with a lawyer.

[freshstart06]

I understand what you guys are saying but I just have to stand up for the pro se filers, as long as you educate yourself and do not have any asset to lose, if you can't afford to hire a lawyer then it is okay. there are help for pro se filer it is out there, you just have to find it. Not everyone can sacrifice what you guys can. Look at me for example.... we are a family of six. the extra money we had had to go to find another place to live, I could not just give my extra money to a lawyer. We were facing garnishments, a lawsuit, just going deeper in the hole. I don't have CC accounts with balances like you guys have. I have a ton of medical bills and we have tax issues that yes, will get discharge because it is very very old. The current taxes can not. I don't have family members to borrow extra money. So I refuse to give any extra money to a lawyer so he can pay his bills but we can't.

Some of you guys that can afford lawyers, don't have many kids or none at all. some of you guys have assets to pull from. So it is easy for you guys to be like stop paying your cc bills because some of guys have are paying $1000s amonth. Usually the ones that file pro se just don't have it.

Don't get me wrong, I read some of the post on this board and the first thing I think "boy they need a lawyer" Some of these case are pretty deep. But some of chpt 7 case that are clear cut are not so bad, and some people that are out of work, have kids well under the median just don't need a lawyer unless had or have assets ie house with tons of equity.

To be honest, it is the luck of the draw, if you have a laywer or file pro se, your case can go smooth or it can turn ugly, you just never know and you guys know some lawyers can make it worse but I will admit in those cases, they needed lawyers but they just got a bad one.