Please critique my proposed I & J

[leftyf]

This is what I am proposing to my attorney. I think the food is crazy and my car insurance is outrageous (due to a teenage driver I am paying for.) Nowhere near a balanced budget...these numbers, by the way, are all real and not estimates to pad my schedule J. I am trying to file a 7, but am worried I may be forced into 13 cuz of income. This is for a family of 4, but really for 5 since I have a teenager who has left the home but we still support to some degree.

Schedule I

Gross Income 6,226

Taxes 1,394
Insurance 485

Monthly net income 4,347

Schedule J

Rent 1,060
Utilities
Electricity/Heat 188
Water & Sewer 70
Telephone 155
Cable 79

Home maintenance 0
Food 1,626
Clothing 144
Dry cleaning 30
Medical & dental 202
Transportation 668
Recreation, clubs, entertainment 90
Charitable contributions 50
Insurance
Renters 20
Life 0
Health 0
Auto 265
Other 0

Taxes 0
Installment payments
Vehicle 413
Vehicle 189

Other
Personal grooming 60
Daycare 611

Monthly expenses 5,919

Monthly net income -1,572

[lrprn]

This is what I am proposing to my attorney.

You are missing a fair number of allowable expenses. Check here for a pretty thorough expense list - http://www.ca-bankruptcy-attorneys.c...alculator.html

Write down realistic numbers for everything. Let your attorney be your guide about what to change or leave out.

[MomIcantFindmy]

I don't see gasoline on the schedule. Food does look high but the insurance looks normal to me..(I have teen drivers also)

[leftyf]

My gas is under transportation

[SinkingFast]

Food is probably way higher than is gonna be submitted.

Our Schedules Allowables for food was $1300 for a family of 6. One attny was gonna submit $600. Another said he'd allow $700 due to our special diets. High blood pressure, have to watch fats, and Mom is in renal failure. Our attny submitted us at $850 when he filed our case.

Transportation looks high to me. We have 3 teens living at home. Our rates are higher than they used to be, but not out of the stratosphere. We claimed $380/mo for 3 old beaters. All 10+ years old and high mileage. Teenaged insurance rates and needing lots of repairs.

As Lrprn said, you'll need to discuss this with your attny. He/She will know what will and won't be allowed in your Court.

[leftyf]

I have some repairs in transportation also, but probably too much since I've spent about $1500.00 over the last 3 months. I should average these over 12 months probably.

[SinkingFast]

I should average these over 12 months probably.

Go back thru your repair receipts. When you've had the oil changed. If you bought tires, etc, over the last year. Average that out over 12 months.

Then add in the average amount/month you spend on gasoline. And add the average amount you should set back to pay insurance premiums.

Don't forget to include tolls and parking costs if those types of things are applicable to you.

You are right tho. $1500 spent 3 months ago, divided by 3, will artificially inflate your transportation costs.

[Keebler]

Go back thru your repair receipts. When you've had the oil changed. If you bought tires, etc, over the last year. Average that out over 12 months.

Then add in the average amount/month you spend on gasoline. And add the average amount you should set back to pay insurance premiums.

Don't forget to include tolls and parking costs if those types of things are applicable to you.

You are right tho. $1500 spent 3 months ago, divided by 3, will artificially inflate your transportation costs.

It seems to me that you want to be under the norm for expenses, in general, to avoid questions. However, for expenses you claim above the norm, you should expect to justify them with real numbers and receipts. In this regard, having a high six month average for transportation expenses will raise a flag but you have receipts to justify them. The high expenses open you up to being questioned and only you know how legitimate the expenses will seem. The real question in my mind are expenses that would be considered transient and not long term -- those you may not be able to use even with proof. (In my case, I purchased a new engine to fix mine when it lost a Rod Bearing.)

What you don't want to do is have high expenses without any proof or justification because you'll never make the case that they're reasonable. For the ones you do have proof or justification, you need to be sure you'll win the argument that they're necessary and unavoidable.

Or so it seems to me...

[whatamess]

Generally its no more than $700 a month for food in NJ two adults, w/two kids and a elderly adult w/a special diet. The phone looks high too, is that for land line and cell phones? Everything else looks about normal, but I am use to high living costs in NJ. Save paperworks to back it up.
WAM

[leftyf]

Cell phone is for 3 people, it is our only phone service. Seems like a pretty good deal with virtually unlimited Nextel to Nextel calling, unlimited text messaging, and a lot of long distance calling by the wife.

Food is extremely high...we've recently cut about $500.00 out of our average so our recent spending is much lower than the 6 month average. We eat out a lot and buy a lot of junk at the grocery store.

I have about $250.00 in gasoline per month and another $250.00 on repairs. The cars are getting old and I've actually spent $1,400 in the last 3 months maintaining them. I still owe on both cars, so I'm worried that I will be forced to give one up even if I can file a 7. The trustee may want to know how I'm going to stay out of trouble with a monthly deficit like I showed above. I wonder the same thing sometimes, but we're trying to get to a balanced budget.

Every number is "real" and not estimated to try and qualify for a 7.

[SinkingFast]

Cell phone is for 3 people, it is our only phone service. Seems like a pretty good deal with virtually unlimited Nextel to Nextel calling, unlimited text messaging, and a lot of long distance calling by the wife.

Food is extremely high... We eat out a lot and buy a lot of junk at the grocery store.

I have about $250.00 in gasoline per month and another $250.00 on repairs. The cars are getting old and I've actually spent $1,400 in the last 3 months maintaining them. I still owe on both cars, so I'm worried that I will be forced to give one up even if I can file a 7. The trustee may want to know how I'm going to stay out of trouble with a monthly deficit like I showed above. I wonder the same thing sometimes, but we're trying to get to a balanced budget.

Every number is "real" and not estimated to try and qualify for a 7.

We had higher than average car repairs too. Old beaters are expensive to maintain. In the year before we filed, we replaced brakes and water pumps on all 3. Plus other stuff I can't remember now. Not to mention routine maintenance like oil changes and such. That's a real expense you probably won't catch grief over.

I'm not trying to be rude here, so please bear that in mind.

Food is a different story. Eating out a lot is not BK mindset. BK is about necessities. That's the Court's way of thinking.

A meal out now and then for the family is OK. Like once a month as our attny told us was acceptable here. Fast food carry-out and dine-in restaurants several times a week is not OK.

After we went total cash, it took us about 2-3 months to adjust to shopping differently at the grocery. We used to buy Coca-Cola and Pepsi. Now we buy generic at half the price. Name brand chips on sale only. Never pay full price. We shop at Aldi's a lot. Hit the bread store on Mondays when they offer half off pricing and get the $3.50/loaf, organic, whole grains bread for $0.49/loaf.

Menu planning revolves around what's on sale for the week. I cruise the clearance rack of the bakery at the grocery. Why pay $2 for a loaf of french bread when I can buy off the clearance rack for $0.60 instead. The kids even joke I have a boyfriend at the grocery. His name is Clarence. ((Clarence,........ Clearance))

Many people on the Forum, both active and past, eat a lot of pasta, beans, and rice. There's even an old thread about Dorito's:

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...hlight=doritos

When your BK petition gets filed, the Court is gonna look for areas to cut.

You pay more per month for your 3 Cell phones than we do for 5 lines. We have Unlimited Sprint to Sprint. 1500 anytime minutes. After 7 pm weekdays, and weekends, Unlimited calling anywhere to any phone. We have teens. We want them to have a cell phone if the car breaks down on the way to school or work.

Our cell phones are just that. Phones. No internet access. No text messaging. No fancy ringtones. Just phones.

Unlimited texting can be expensive and may be one thing the Court could say you don't need. If you drop that service, how much money would it save you per month??

Can your wife make her long distance calls when it would be included in your Plan?? With Sprint, that would be after 7 pm weekdays, or anytime on weekends. If not, maybe you need to bump up your number of "anytime" minutes available per month. We were running up the charges on extra minutes until we bumped up to 1500 minutes. Now we never run over. And it really is saving us money compared to what we were paying for the overages every month.

Filing BK isn't just about finances and numbers on paper. It's about your mindset too. Living simpler and being satisfied with having less.

Again,.......... I don't mean to be rude. Just some food for thought for you.

[leftyf]

Thanks for the input sinkingfast. I've looked into the phone situation and our plan does seem like a good deal...we have 2500 minutes, which I may be able to cut back.

I'm not one to be offended by the frugal lifestyle...I've lived it several times in my life. The best one was when I survived with a family of 3 for two weeks on $0.50. I was actually putting ketchup on a cracker, heating it up in the microwave, and calling it dinner. No, I'm not kidding. The funny part was I smoked at the time, so I don't know how we got by...LOL. My spouse has been in situations where all of the utilities were shut off and her family would live by candlelight...so we're not really used to any upscale standard of living.

As far as dining out goes, you are absolutely correct. Total waste of money. I would guess that $20K of my debt is probably from eating out, and I have the waistline and blood sugar levels to prove it.

[leftyf]

One thing I forgot to mention...in my food budget I have included diapers, home cleaning products, laundry soap, dish soap, etc. This is all on my Walmart bill and I noticed when doing the pre-bk counseling that my food costs were way over what they said they should be, but my misc. expenses were way under what they said they should be.

My question is, what line on the J should I include this stuff? The diapers (for the kids) and shampoo etc. could probably go under personal grooming, but what about the cleaning products?

And I will stop posting soon on this subject and just talk to my attorney, but I appreciate getting the opinions here also.
Thanks,
Lefty

[WantToBeDebtFre]

Wow. I spend $450 per month for a family of five and that includes diapers, formula, and all toiletries and cleaning supplies. You guys should check out www.thegrocerygame.com. I've been doing it since January and my house is stocked full of good stuff.

My attorney wanted to put a higher expense for my bankruptcy but I still think he only bumped it up to about $600.

[SinkingFast]

Your Tide, Downy, Chlorox II go into the "Laundry and Dry Cleaning" section. Line 6 on Schedule J. So you need to go thru your receipts, pull those amounts out, and average them over a course of months. The average listed here in that area was $40-$50/mo. We claimed $45/mo.

If I remember correctly,.......... Our attny included cleaning supplies in with "Laundry" expenses as well. Cause cleaning supplies isn't broken out anywhere else on our Schedule J. So that will probably depend on the attny you hire.

Diapers, I'm guessing, would get itemized out on Line 17, "Other". That's probably where personal care expenses will as well. Hair cuts, school and work lunches, etc., also go on Line 17.

Lines 2d, Other Utilities, and 17, your attny will enter a lump $$$ amount. On a separate sheet, he/she will itemize what all is included in those $$$ amounts.