Sched J vs. Means test

[leftyf]

My schedule J negative number is quite a bit higher than my "means-test calculation" which is a seperate schedule. I assume this means I spend more than the average? Any ideas on which one the trustee will go with? I'm not sure I get the point of the J if the means test calc trumps it...is the means test calc just to see if the presumption exists and then the trustee moves on to the J? Probably an easy answer, but as I approach my filing date I am starting to confuse myself.

Thanks
Lefty

[lrprn]

Lefty, if you are a higher income filer and worried about Ch 13, the latest court Ch 13 case decisions are leaning toward the Means Test bearing more weight than Schedule I minus J.

It's difficult to say how your local court judge and trustee are going to interpret your situation. Ask your lawyer what he thinks is going to hold more weight in your situation - the Means Test negative number or Schedule I minus J negative number.

[leftyf]

Thanks lrprn...I'm hoping to file a 7, but I'm afraid the means test will indicate that I may be able to pay something in a 13 even thought my I minus J indicates that there is not a chance me affording a monthly payment...really. Looking through the means test, it looks like if I can't afford at least 25% of my unsecured, then abuse is not presumed?
It's really crazy being on the borderline of a 7 or 13...not even sure what to prepare for.
That 25% test I just mentioned seems to be a strange loophole, but I hope to pass through it.
Lefty

[SinkingFast]

That 25% test I just mentioned seems to be a strange loophole, but I hope to pass through it.
Lefty

I think,............... And not saying this is the real reason, but,...........

It might have to do with Administrative costs to run the Plan and nothing to do with Debtor's or Creditor's well being.

If you can't payback at least 25%, it's not worth it to the BK Program for you to be in Ch 13.

This part is real,............

The BK Program is self supporting. The costs for Trustees, Judges, Audits, etc, are all covered by fees paid into the Program by the Debtor/Filers. Us.

Ch 7 for example,...........

The fee to file is $299. The Trustee is paid $60-$75/case. Plus Administrative and operating costs. The remainder of the Filing Fee goes into the BK Program pot.

Then, if the Trustee seizes any assets,......... The Trustee gets to keep 25% of the first $5K and a sliding scale above $5K. And the BK Program pays the costs to liquidate, Audit, and Administer the seized assets.

[Bankruptcy Atty]

I & J vs MT

The foregoing are mutually exclusive. Case law has not changed this.

Basically, the MT will determine the outcome of your case (i.e. pass/fail/minimum $).

What is really stupid about the MT is that it looks at historical income (i.e. last 6 mo. avg.). Many of my clients have been working overtime and extra jobs to avoid BK - now they have a MT problem.

I & J are most relevant when the MT Cap is passed in a 13 and in 7 when there is SS Income.

A good BK Atty knows how to present both of these to their clients' benefit.

If you are close on the numbers (i.e. MT) find the best BK Atty you can.

[vleisme]

Please explain further.
I am in the same situation we just had our 341 and unfortunately it appears we have hired a not so good atty. He had so many mistakes he is in the process of amending the plan. At first he had figured we would pay $125 for 40 months the trustee said after his mistakes were corrected we would owe $550 per month. So the atty reworked the figures and now the means test shows $499 disposable income J shows none.I am physically sick about all of this the worry and not having the knowledge to make sure what the atty. is doing is right is really getting to me. No I don't have money for another retainer so I am stuck. I have learned more from this formum than I have my atty.I am to understand there is no black and white answer to what determines what you will pay monthly , means test or J?

[leftyf]

I'm pretty nervous. I don't know how involved my attorney is in filling out my schedules. It seems like I am always talking with the paralegal and all conversations have been initiated by me. One thing I can say is that many of the issues I bring up from my learning on this forum are usually "poo-pooed" by the paralegal...they seem to think I am over thinking it or something. That could be because there are so many different people from different states here that have gone through many different experiences.
They seem to just be taking my numbers and putting them on the schedules without any, what I call, strategic planning around how things she be presented to get my 7 or at least a very favorable 13. They're paid in full, including filing fees, so no turning back now.
They're treating it like a routine transaction even though I'm pretty sure I will be a very borderline case...hopefully they know something about how this works that I don't. Otherwise, I could be in for some pain. Just venting. Planning to file the week before xmas.
Lefty