What about people who don't know anything about BK?

[Graphic]

I was just thinking you know what do the trustees do with these people who aren't as "smart" as some of us, not me, when it comes to BK? I mean, and no i wouldn't do this since it is kind of my situation, what if someone who didn't know anything about bankruptcys sells their car ahead of time and uses the money for stuff then a couple months later decides to go ahead and file bankruptcy? I mean what if they HONESTLY didn't know that they couldn't do that they'd still be charged with fraud? Seems kind of unfair to me. Not just cars .. just anything really that could be considered fraud so I mean will they really file fraud charges against them?

I personally think they would just say 'too bad you should have known' but I don't think that is right. Sure people should research things but sometimes people just want help and don't know how to research, some people just aren't really all there to really understand some of the codes and procedures hence the hiring of lawyers. Just was curious.

[bkfiler]

I was just thinking you know what do the trustees do with these people who aren't as "smart" as some of us, not me, ...

maybe the trustee isnt smart enough to figure out that you are not as dumb as the others. then what would you do.

[Graphic]

I mean really though. I'll just use my scenario for example. Let's just say I didn't know a damn thing about bk. So I sell my car (that my parents bought mind you..with their money just used my name for the title). Then let's say my parents buy me another car, use the money for down payment into that car and it's titled in their name.. I mean I would think one could argue hey it's their money to begin with one can do what he wants with it. BUT Since we are saying the person is dumb and doesn't know anything he doesn't list the car as an item he recently sold because he/she didn't think it mattered since he never paid for it and figured it wasn't his item to own. What does the trustee do then? Don't you agree that one could say hey it's his parents money not his. I don't know. LOL now that I re-read what I wrote sounds bad but I mean if that really happened what are they going to do really. I think someone will eventually bring this to court and someone is going to make some precedent in changing the new bankruptcy laws that help out the debtor's a little more. Just my opinion. maybe too early to tell yet

[SinkingFast]

You'd/they'd get the same answer we're getting.

2 of "our" cars really belong to our kids. In our names for lower insurance rates. In our names, so they are our cars.

If your person were to sell a vehicle titled in that person's name and then "give"/"gift" the money to parents who supposedly really owned the car, that would be a deal with an "Insider" and would have to be disclosed.

You have to list all payments to "Insiders" which includes relatives, business partners and their relatives, your corporations, or your affiliates, within the last year prior to filing BK.

Even if your parents can prove they paid for your car. Even if the car was titled in their name at some point prior to giving the car to you. The fact that your name is on the title now makes the car yours in the eyes of the Court.

You can sell it now, if you want. And you can give the money to your parents, if you want. But you are gonna have to tell the Court about the sale of the car, and you are gonna have to tell where the money went. If you give it to your folks, that's an "Insider" deal that won't look good at all. Unless you wait over a year after the sale of the car to file BK.

Somebody who did not know about this type of thing could get their butt in some pretty deep doo doo when they went to file BK.

[BassBoy]

I would only hope that if one is clueless about BK, they at least seek the free, legal advice of an attorney, even if they intend to file pro se. One should never go into anything blindly. It could come back and bite you on the a$$..........hard.

[Graphic]

I could imagine so. Still doesn't seem fair I have a feeling somewhere down the line someone will take the time and money to get a trial and maybe set precedent on some of those issues. Who knows guess we shall see.

[bkfiler]

I mean really though.

i mean really too. if the trustee doesnt know you didnt know then what is he gonna know about what you didnt know or not know.

[LostOne0069]

It's kind of like commiting a crime... when you didn't know it was a crime. Ignorance of a law does not exempt you from that law.

The law applies to stupid people too. If you don't know what you're doing, get an attorney.

[bkfiler]

The law applies to stupid people too. If you don't know what you're doing, get an attorney.

the stupid persons brain is a terrible thing to waste imo. didnt dan quayle come up with that quote?

[StaciMM]

Any adult is responsible for his/her own actions & decisions. If someone goes into a major life altering decision blindly, they will likely not be happy with the results. Doesn't matter if it is bankruptcy, marriage, or what.

[Graphic]

True the law applies to everyone. However, just cause the law is there doesn't mean it is fair or should be there in the first place.

[newstart]

Are we talking about a person who filed pro se or with an attorney? because truly if they filed with an attorney it seems this subject would be touched on when asked about assets being bought and sold. When the papers are filled out on the statement of affairs that information would have to be listed and an explanation could be given to the attorney for his advice. i also agree with others on the forum that in order to make an informed decision on what one does not know they need to research and find out.

[Graphic]

No it is just hypothetical. Just cause someone should do something or what we obviously feel one should do doesn't mean they should. Just cause someone files with an attorney doesn't mean the attorney knows everything there is to know as well. Some could care less about BK's and probably just do it on the side for extra money. It isn't like they do much. Paralegals type up the documents and do most of the work anyways, to get paid 30k a year.

I just wanted to stir the question heh I mean really and truly like one said law applies to all. However that isn't the case ALL the time.. most yes. I still feel in a few months we might see some changes in how some of these laws are worked.

[StaciMM]

I'm not big on the 'I didn't know better' defense. If you're able to take on a debt, you are old enough to know that you need to pay it back. YES-life happens, things come along that we can't control, and we even make BAD choices. I know I have! I even agree wholeheartedly that the creditors make it hard to overcome those hurdles. But I can't sit back and play the 'pity me-its not fair' game when I'm partially responsible for being where I am.

One bit of common sense, that can be adjusted for many situations: know the difference between 'need' and 'want', and handle needs first. If you can, then have fun with the wants. If you do it backwards, deal with the consequences. Don't cry and say 'I didn't know I should have paid my creditors instead of taking that dream vacation'.

[Graphic]

Oh I agree. I'm not saying in all cases where people 'didn't know" and transferred thousands of dollars on the eve of BK. You can usually tell whether or not someone is lying. However, in some cases the law isn't real clear. How do we know? hell because the lawyers aren't even sure on it.. and as we saw earlier in other thread the TRUSTEES themselves aren't. So that's why I feel certain situations should be given more thought than just oh that's fraud.