Do you think the jobs would return if there were a virtual moratorium on immigration?

[AngelinaCatHub]

Excellent thread. Shark yours was outstanding.

My two cents in a nutshell: It was Nixon who opened up China, Clinton pushed us over to NAFTA, Clinton selling missile Guidance, Both Bushes screwing up two wars, Obama continuing George Orwell's planned society, Johnson selling our country into "entitlements" with the Great Society, and last but most important. Adolph Hitler, who state in Mein Kamph "Give me the children and I'll take the World".

Bottom line is whatever shadow government there may be, it is succeeding by dumbing our children down. My wife's Dad left in his stuff his old school books of 1920's. He was taking Calculus in his Jr. High School year, as well as Latin. He was versed in the classics as well as History and Geography.

My brother hired a young man, 21 years old. As I was working with my brother on some building, I mentioned to this young man the term Adolph Hitler, and he asked "who is that?" I asked him if he knew of the Second World War. His exact words; "They never taught me of those things." He also did not know about the Korean nor the Viet Nam conflicts. Ask any young person today where Arizona is, and you just may get an answer of "I never heard of that Country". Ask them who the Vice President is and they may not even know that.

We are being bred and molded into "worker bees" as the middle class dies out. There will be two classes, workers, and Government. It is History repeating itself over and over, again.

Hyper inflation is being constructed now as it was in the 20's. A cheap way to pay our National debt. We are IN a depression make no mistake about this. If the news media was honest instead of cooperative with government, we 'workers' would be terrified of what is going on in our bankrupt society. My three cents, only. 'Hub

[shark66]

I agree with this! We seem to be the only country in the world that does nothing to protect its own manufacturing jobs.

Manufacturing jobs? What do you think this is, 1950s?

You're not cool unless you're a bankster, get a life, dude! Or at least an iPhone...

Unfortunately, I do not see any current candidate even daring to speak about this matter.

GoingDown for President! Problem solved. Issue resolved.

Good luck to us all.

[GoingDown]

We need to reinstate the tariffs - protectionism is NOT a dirty word - it's practiced by all nations except for the US (including China) - that will make imports more expensive than domestically produced goods - result - jobs including manufacturing will retun, wages will rise. Worked from the late 1700's through the early 1980's!

I agree with this! We seem to be the only country in the world that does nothing to protect its own manufacturing jobs. Tariffs would do more to help us get out of this economic mess than anything else. We cannot build a strong economy delivering pizzas to one another. Just as our families must spend less than we take in, as a country we must import less than we export to other countries. The trade deficit is ultimately what is dragging down our economy. And, I believe that we could easily compete with China in terms of quality. Have you noticed how almost anything you buy from China is rather crappy in terms of quality? Light bulbs that are supposed to last 8 years end up lasting about a year. We could do better than that.

Unfortunately, I do not see any current candidate even daring to speak about this matter.

[IamOld]

You're definitely in the wrong place for beer...they do have some pretty decent red wines, though...

If you're a beer person, your next stop should be Czech Republic...great culture, smart folk, oh-my-God food and beer to match it...

If that's too far away, most of former Yugoslavian republics as well as Hungary have very good beer, as well as hard liquor...and food is nothing to sneeze at either, quite the contrary...

Happy hunting.

A good cold Pilsner, with some hearty and spicy gulash - and I would be very happy :-)

[shark66]

You're definitely in the wrong place for beer...they do have some pretty decent red wines, though...

If you're a beer person, your next stop should be Czech Republic...great culture, smart folk, oh-my-God food and beer to match it...

If that's too far away, most of former Yugoslavian republics as well as Hungary have very good beer, as well as hard liquor...and food is nothing to sneeze at either, quite the contrary...

Happy hunting.

[JackBondLove]

I can guarantee you that NONE of the Indian or Russian computer geeks works for that type of money. They *start* at double of that sum with sky being the limit.. And I know hundreds of them, personally.

They just know their stuff a lot better than their American counterparts, and have significantly better work ethic, that's all.

It's not all the amount of money that something (or someone) costs, it's what you get in return...

Good luck to us all.

I will agree that the Russians are sharp. I am an English consultant in a European former USSR republic, and the stuff that the high school kids take are amazing (13 y.o. taking physics? 16 y.o. taking differential equations?)

I am generally not impressed with the Indians, however (except for their spicy food!) Do they work "hard"? Well, if they screw up, they go back to the squalor of Kolkata, so what do you think? I have always thought that the intellectual makeup of a people is reflected in the cleanliness and orderliness of their society - India is a basket case. Russia OTOH put a man in space (before even the mighty capitalists!), but just couldn't figure out how to make good consumer products (like beer, which I had tasted back in the USSR days.)

[shark66]

I always hate to disagree, but the average H1B1 visa Indian computer guy makes about half...and work ethic - a large payroll processor with whom I've worked for ten years outsourced their report processing and (haha) bill collections to India - godawful service, effed up billing, bad reports, etc.

I wasn't talking about the jobs that were outsourced overseas. When you're paying someone buck a day you get what you paid for - folks reading from the script without any interest in the end result or repercussions that their attitude has on your business.

The nature of my job brings me in contact with these people every single day and that has been the case for the past five years. I've been inside just about every server room belonging to Fortune 500 companies in NYC. And I still stand by what I said. Even the much smaller fish pay people a lot more than what you're implying.

You don't buy entire neighborhoods in NY's five boroughs or NJ with 25K a year, no matter how smart you might be with your money.

The other popular choice are IBM or Bell System retirees who know this stuff extremely well and can accept work with no benefits included...

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

let's not compare the USA with European countries, remember we have 331+ million people...We are not the UK, France, or Germany. California has more souls than Denmark...

BUT the EU as a whole has about 440 million people!

[IamOld]

I always hate to disagree, but the average H1B1 visa Indian computer guy makes about half...and work ethic - a large payroll processor with whom I've worked for ten years outsourced their report processing and (haha) bill collections to India - godawful service, effed up billing, bad reports, etc.

I can guarantee you that NONE of the Indian or Russian computer geeks works for that type of money. They *start* at double of that sum with sky being the limit.. And I know hundreds of them, personally.

They just know their stuff a lot better than their American counterparts, and have significantly better work ethic, that's all.

It's not all the amount of money that something (or someone) costs, it's what you get in return...

Good luck to us all.

[shark66]

EXACTLY - or the French, Danes, even the Canadians to a large extent.

Also, illegal immigration is almost nil on a monthly basis now thanks to crappy economy. BUT what they do need to put a stop to is the H1B visas - Indian/Russian computer folks for $25K/year, etc.

I can guarantee you that NONE of the Indian or Russian computer geeks works for that type of money. They *start* at double of that sum with sky being the limit.. And I know hundreds of them, personally.

They just know their stuff a lot better than their American counterparts, and have significantly better work ethic, that's all.

It's not all the amount of money that something (or someone) costs, it's what you get in return...

Good luck to us all.

[bladerunner]

my bad...forget california..how about phoenix, az has more souls than denmark...

[bladerunner]

let's not compare the USA with European countries, remember we have 331+ million people...We are not the UK, France, or Germany. California has more souls than Denmark...

[IamOld]

Yea, that's going to work well. For starters, how about being informed citizens like knowing about the country we live in. The Germans would never tolerate our banking systems, labor conditions and lack of safety net.

EXACTLY - or the French, Danes, even the Canadians to a large extent.

Also, illegal immigration is almost nil on a monthly basis now thanks to crappy economy. BUT what they do need to put a stop to is the H1B visas - Indian/Russian computer folks for $25K/year, etc.

[jacko]

You nailed it. We have to reinvent ourselves. Some of my income streams comes from trading and not to far off will be the majority. Since trading income is not earned, I may still qualify for public assistance. If the farmers can do it..-)

There are several different problems that you're trying to cram under one solution:

a) Millions of jobs have been physically moved (outsourced) outside of U.S. and will NOT come back unless we accept to work for the same amount of money as people in Asia do. I doubt that anyone on this forum would appreciate that kind of a paycheck.

b) American workers - when compared to their European or Asian counterparts - are usually more demanding while offering less. There is a reason that the very best folks in anti-virus world are Russians. Had you ever attended a class at any of their universities you'd understand why. That is also the main reason why Berlin wall was taken down...to bring down (in the long run) the price of labor in the U.S. Technology helped in making this happen faster. I'm *not* Russian, BTW.

c) There will never be an end to the problem discussed above until the U.S. education system vastly improves. I don't see that happening anytime soon, not within our lifetimes at the very least.

d) I'm in a different part of the same industry that you belong to, and will state the following: times have changed. Learn to adapt. I came to this country on one of those *horrible* visas when Clinton was President, after working for the same Fortune 10 company in two European countries. They paid a pretty penny to get my butt in here because they needed me at that moment, and make no mistake - I was paid as much as my American counterparts working on the same or similar projects. Fast forward a couple of years, and my own job got outsourced someplace else. I found myself within the industry that I knew nothing of, but which promised excellent benefits and a solid paycheck. Took me about three or four years to get where I wanted to be, but it was well-worth it in my opinion.

We are expendable. Every single one of us.

Cops are not. Firemen are not. Soldiers are not. I'm sure you're getting my drift. But all of them will be made to work for less by high unemployment.

You, me and the rest of "technical intelligentsia" are dime a dozen in the eyes of prospective employers.

Learn a trade or two. You might end up needing them.

This particular environment was created on purpose. And we're far from having seen the worst of it.

You'll never get Congress, Senate or White House to protect your job. Regardless of administration in charge.

All of them have been bought and paid for a long time ago, save for maybe a couple of principled hotheads such as Kucinich and Paul.

By the banksters and their friends.

I need eleven more years which I may or may not get where I am - don't know where you are and how far you may be from retirement. Ready to jump ships and shift gears once again, if needed, for the umpteenth time in my life.

May none of us have to do that. But may we be prepared should the need arise.

My $0.02 only.

Good luck to us all.

[jacko]

Yea, that's going to work well. For starters, how about being informed citizens like knowing about the country we live in. The Germans would never tolerate our banking systems, labor conditions and lack of safety net.

I generally agree with Shark and am deeply deeply grateful for all the advice and support he has given me - and everyone.

We need to reinstate the tariffs - protectionism is NOT a dirty word - it's practiced by all nations except for the US (including China) - that will make imports more expensive than domestically produced goods - result - jobs including manufacturing will retun, wages will rise. Worked from the late 1700's through the early 1980's!