Do you think the jobs would return if there were a virtual moratorium on immigration?

[IamOld]

I agree with you all EXCEPT AMerican workers are FAR less demanding than their European counterparts - of course they have..."false consciousness" and dare not think that they deserve decent wages, vacations, etc!

Very well said!

The only thing I disagree with is about the jobs which have been exported to Asia. I think we should try to get them back here. We would have to do it gradually over time, but we should look at the main things which made these jobs flee to Asia and try to correct this situation.

Their wages are cheap, yes, but those are not the only reasons companies moved their manufacturing jobs to Asia. environmental laws, labor laws, energy costs, "free" trade policies, and government red tape had a lot to do with it as well. We should attempt to make the necessary changes to get as many of these jobs back as possible. It won't be easy. It won't be quick. But it would be worth it in the end.

Our trade deficit exists because we are spending more than we make as a nation. We can't continue to import more than we export forever. We have to turn this around somehow.

I install a lot of lighting in customers' homes and businesses, and I have noticed the absolutely terrible quality of light fixtures and bulbs coming from China. I know we used to make better fixtures and bulbs when they were made here. I know this because I used to install them. We may not be able to compete with China in terms of cheap labor, but maybe we could compete in terms of quality.

[GoingDown]

There are several different problems that you're trying to cram under one solution:

a) Millions of jobs have been physically moved (outsourced) outside of U.S. and will NOT come back unless we accept to work for the same amount of money as people in Asia do. I doubt that anyone on this forum would appreciate that kind of a paycheck.

b) American workers - when compared to their European or Asian counterparts - are usually more demanding while offering less. There is a reason that the very best folks in anti-virus world are Russians. Had you ever attended a class at any of their universities you'd understand why. That is also the main reason why Berlin wall was taken down...to bring down (in the long run) the price of labor in the U.S. Technology helped in making this happen faster. I'm *not* Russian, BTW.

c) There will never be an end to the problem discussed above until the U.S. education system vastly improves. I don't see that happening anytime soon, not within our lifetimes at the very least.

d) I'm in a different part of the same industry that you belong to, and will state the following: times have changed. Learn to adapt. I came to this country on one of those *horrible* visas when Clinton was President, after working for the same Fortune 10 company in two European countries. They paid a pretty penny to get my butt in here because they needed me at that moment, and make no mistake - I was paid as much as my American counterparts working on the same or similar projects. Fast forward a couple of years, and my own job got outsourced someplace else. I found myself within the industry that I knew nothing of, but which promised excellent benefits and a solid paycheck. Took me about three or four years to get where I wanted to be, but it was well-worth it in my opinion.

We are expendable. Every single one of us.

Cops are not. Firemen are not. Soldiers are not. I'm sure you're getting my drift. But all of them will be made to work for less by high unemployment.

You, me and the rest of "technical intelligentsia" are dime a dozen in the eyes of prospective employers.

Learn a trade or two. You might end up needing them.

This particular environment was created on purpose. And we're far from having seen the worst of it.

You'll never get Congress, Senate or White House to protect your job. Regardless of administration in charge.

All of them have been bought and paid for a long time ago, save for maybe a couple of principled hotheads such as Kucinich and Paul.

By the banksters and their friends.

I need eleven more years which I may or may not get where I am - don't know where you are and how far you may be from retirement. Ready to jump ships and shift gears once again, if needed, for the umpteenth time in my life.

May none of us have to do that. But may we be prepared should the need arise.

My $0.02 only.

Good luck to us all.

Very well said!

The only thing I disagree with is about the jobs which have been exported to Asia. I think we should try to get them back here. We would have to do it gradually over time, but we should look at the main things which made these jobs flee to Asia and try to correct this situation.

Their wages are cheap, yes, but those are not the only reasons companies moved their manufacturing jobs to Asia. environmental laws, labor laws, energy costs, "free" trade policies, and government red tape had a lot to do with it as well. We should attempt to make the necessary changes to get as many of these jobs back as possible. It won't be easy. It won't be quick. But it would be worth it in the end.

Our trade deficit exists because we are spending more than we make as a nation. We can't continue to import more than we export forever. We have to turn this around somehow.

I install a lot of lighting in customers' homes and businesses, and I have noticed the absolutely terrible quality of light fixtures and bulbs coming from China. I know we used to make better fixtures and bulbs when they were made here. I know this because I used to install them. We may not be able to compete with China in terms of cheap labor, but maybe we could compete in terms of quality.

[AngelinaCatHub]

This is something I remind myself of from time to time. When I was younger I spent quite a bit of time traveling around this globe we inhabit, including much time in places like Turkey and India. While the USA is by no means a perfect place there are many human beings much worse off than us. Even in BK I still have a roof over my head, food to eat, clothes to wear, clean air, clean water. Not everyone in the world has that.

This may be so, but we learned by our mistakes and did something about it. Unfortunately, our government has dumbed down the general younger population to expect an easy life without much effort (work).

Part of the issue is expectations. We have been taught in the USA to always strive, always look up, always be better. So when we "fall behind" it feels devastating. Yet the employment rate in Spain is 21% and among people between 20-30 it's more than a third. In some countries the real unemployment rate is 50%.

This is not bad. We should have those expectations but we also have to remember to work for those expectation.

So just how "tough" the economic situation is in America is relative. In absolute terms things are OK. My greatest fear for our country right now is in the panic to deal with all the short-term issues we face we destroy the bedrock of what has made this country great. At a collective level this isn't the time to panic but to refocus our priorities and get back to work.

You can't get back to work if the jobs do not exist. I believe it is far more dire than the government co-opted media is telling us. The vast amount of empty houses around our area give me thought as to your remark that at least we have electric, etc. Not everyone is as fortunate at this. They don't have their houses, electric and I've seen many put out onto the sidewalk. Things are not as well as we are being told.

I have returned to my brothers in TN for a time to work for him a bit. Upon arrival I noted five new vacancies in houses since I left a month ago. So, where are these people now? Under a bridge, in a shelter, at family, or renting. Well if they are renting perhaps they would not have lost the house. The jobs are drying up. You can't just throw money at a problem. This is the only thing our politicians think, that a problem can be solved by throwing money at it. What has happened to the first "Stimulus"? Nothing but inflation, that's what.

'Hub

[ttg1]

The reason however I feel it won't be as bad as the depression is the fact you replied to my post. You still have electricity, I imagine you are eating even though it maybe UE insurance, welfare, food stamps, etc.

This is something I remind myself of from time to time. When I was younger I spent quite a bit of time traveling around this globe we inhabit, including much time in places like Turkey and India. While the USA is by no means a perfect place there are many human beings much worse off than us. Even in BK I still have a roof over my head, food to eat, clothes to wear, clean air, clean water. Not everyone in the world has that.

Part of the issue is expectations. We have been taught in the USA to always strive, always look up, always be better. So when we "fall behind" it feels devastating. Yet the employment rate in Spain is 21% and among people between 20-30 it's more than a third. In some countries the real unemployment rate is 50%.

So just how "tough" the economic situation is in America is relative. In absolute terms things are OK. My greatest fear for our country right now is in the panic to deal with all the short-term issues we face we destroy the bedrock of what has made this country great. At a collective level this isn't the time to panic but to refocus our priorities and get back to work.

[banca rotta]

I'm not certain it will not be as great as the 1930's depression for those of us who are older. There are too many who are over 50 who are unable to find jobs. I've been out of work for so long and at almost 58, it is very disheartening. Too young for social security but unable to find work.

True and I am sorry to hear. I try to spend as much money stateside and local as I possibly can for reasons like this. Can't do it alone though and many of our fellow Americans are still in denial.

The reason however I feel it won't be as bad as the depression is the fact you replied to my post. You still have electricity, I imagine you are eating even though it maybe UE insurance, welfare, food stamps, etc.

In the 1930's folks pretty much worked, went to a soup kitchen or died. Those were the choices of that time. We at least have an adequate social safety net compared to the 30's.

I truly wish however it was much better where so many folks didn't have to rely on it.

Good luck

[discouraged]

I'm not certain it will not be as great as the 1930's depression for those of us who are older. There are too many who are over 50 who are unable to find jobs. I've been out of work for so long and at almost 58, it is very disheartening. Too young for social security but unable to find work.

[banca rotta]

Sadly, the only ones who would probably want to vote for me would be the illegals, and they can't vote. ;)

I still wonder how long we can continue to spend more than we take in as a country?

The trade deficit continues year after year after year.

We are bleeding our country dry.

And seriously, has anyone noticed how crappy most of the things from China really are? They just don't last very long at all. So, are they really cheaper?

After burning out 5 blenders made in China just making blueberry smoothies, I decided to go on Ebay and buy an old American made blender, and guess what? It is still working! The Chinese stuff is just not built to last. It's garbage.

It's hard to put a time frame on it but it will happen in time. It most likely will take a crisis to do the job. One thing I feel is a lot of people compare us to Wiemar Germany and feel that we will collapse and then a dictator like Hitler will rise.

Looking back at our history I feel we will collapse, see how we got to the collapse, rebuild the free market economy and build it all back up and this may take 2 decades, but it will happen.

Whatever pain we all have now and the coming pain we will endure it won't be as bad as the Civil war was and probably won't be as bad as the 1930's depression. We survived both

Whatever does happen there will be an endgame to the spending more then we take in addiction.

[Fallonedward]

This is what happened to my husband, him and his entire department were outsourced to a facility in India.

I am proud to live in a country that welcomes people from all over the world, and fascinated with history and how much of this country was built on the backbone of immigrants.

I do not think that halting immigration would make jobs return. The problem, as I have personally witnessed, is American companies sending jobs overseas. Many people I know have lost their jobs when their entire departments (and even entire regional offices) were moved to another country.

I'm not in IT, so I can't speak to your industry. However, I can't remember the last time I called tech support and spoke to someone in a US call center. Heck, even all my collection calls are coming from overseas!

[AngelinaCatHub]

I'm afraid they know all too well what they are doing with our money. They are inflating it just as in Germany who paid off WWI reparations with fiat worthless paper. This youtube movie is excellent, long but accurate. It is a total believable and provable scenario. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU

It is over two hours but once started I dare say you won't leave it unfinished. 'Hub

[shark66]

In all fairness, that's an entirely silly argument. We already regulate quite heavily what people do with their money from taxes (which is a form of regulation) to money laundering, which I mentioned. Whether one should be free to do what they want with their money is a philosophical question. As a matter of fact, it's simply untrue that one is free do what they want with their money in this country at this point in time.

I never claimed that people were free to do what they want with their money. What I believe is that they *should* be.

That's where you and I differ: we should regulate less and not more. Give the government more power to snoop through people's accounts and personal business? Are you kidding me? The government is the exact reason why we are in this mess to begin with...it is the government that had erected an education system that creates retards. It's the government that keeps on granting amnesty to illegals over and over again...

Being a *legal* immigrant, I can't possibly begin to explain how this pattern makes my blood boil...



The issue how long can the status quo last. Of all the people in the USA, the people on this forum should know with clarity that the status quo can't last forever. Depending on whose counting, the country is between 12 and 17 trillion dollars in debt. That has to be paid by someone. The only material question is who.

No one.

The big boys will keep on printing money like Weinmar Germany or go bankrupt.

I'd be betting on former, not the latter.

Good luck to us all.

[ttg1]

You do understand that *any* bill attempting to deal with money transfers the way you're proposing would be DOA in Congress?

The statement was made that we need to reinvent ourselves. I agree. I proposed one way to do that. The question was then raised as to how difficult my suggestion would be to implement as a technical matter. Technically, it's very easy to implement. Politically...that's an entirely different matter.

In all fairness, if someone is here legally, it's no one's business what they do with their money apart from their own.

In all fairness, that's an entirely silly argument. We already regulate quite heavily what people do with their money from taxes (which is a form of regulation) to money laundering, which I mentioned. Whether one should be free to do what they want with their money is a philosophical question. As a matter of fact, it's simply untrue that one is free do what they want with their money in this country at this point in time.

Illegal immigration is an excellent business for one too many industries and Washington will do its very best to keep the status quo...

The issue how long can the status quo last. Of all the people in the USA, the people on this forum should know with clarity that the status quo can't last forever. Depending on whose counting, the country is between 12 and 17 trillion dollars in debt. That has to be paid by someone. The only material question is who.

[shark66]

You do understand that *any* bill attempting to deal with money transfers the way you're proposing would be DOA in Congress?

In all fairness, if someone is here legally, it's no one's business what they do with their money apart from their own.

Illegal immigration is an excellent business for one too many industries and Washington will do its very best to keep the status quo...

Good luck to us all.

[ttg1]

That's a good thought but how would they possibly enforce it?

Enforcing it is a minor issue. All international transfers are ultimately transfered through the SWIFT system. The reporting systems already exist as a means of detecting money laundering. All you are doing is changing the dollar amounts. Literally, you are just changing the location of a decimal point in a database. That's how simple it is.

[discouraged]

That's a good thought but how would they possibly enforce it? I know there are times when I am at the service center at the local grocery store and see these funds sent off. Can't figure out how that could be monitored.

[ttg1]

The direct and specific answer to the OP is that no, the jobs won't come back. But that doesn't mean that a ban on immigration is a bad thing.

My problem with immigration is not what it does but what it fails to do. No individual, community, or country can continue to exists unless it invests in its own most precious natural resource: its people. You don't invest in your own people by replacing them with other people. And that is what immigration has done. The net result has been not only a brain drain of people to other countries such as Ireland and Brazil but equally as important much of the basic manual labor was done by people with no long-term commitment to the communities they lived in.

I don't think banning immigration is the best answer. What I would like to see is a total ban on all cross-border financial transfers. If you want to come here and invest your life in America you are welcome regardless of your race or sex. But if what you want to do is come here and loot the country, which is in effect what immigrant has done, then go home please.