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    Analysts Say More Banks Will Fail

    (New York) --As home prices continue to decline and loan defaults mount, federal regulators are bracing for dozens of American banks to fail over the next year.

    But after a large mortgage lender in California collapsed late Friday, Wall Street analysts began posing two crucial questions: Just how many banks might falter? And, more urgently, which one could be next?

    The nation’s banks are in far less danger than they were in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when more than 1,000 federally insured institutions went under during the savings-and-loan crisis. The debacle, the greatest collapse of American financial institutions since the Depression, prompted a government bailout that cost taxpayers about $125 billion.

    “Everybody is drawing up lists, trying to figure out who the next bank is, No. 1, and No. 2, how many of them are there,” said Richard X. Bove, the banking analyst with Ladenburg Thalmann, who released a list of troubled banks over the weekend. “And No. 3, from the standpoint of Washington, how badly is it going to affect the economy?”

    Many investors are on edge after federal regulators seized the California lender, IndyMac Bank, one of the nation’s largest savings and loans, last week. With $32 billion in assets, IndyMac, a spinoff of the Countrywide Financial Corporation, was the biggest American lender to fail in more than two decades.

    Now, as the Bush administration grapples with the crisis at the nation’s two largest mortgage finance companies, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, a rush of earnings reports in the coming days and weeks from some of the nation’s largest financial companies are likely to provide more gloomy reminders about the sorry state of the industry.

    The future of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is vital to the banks, savings and loans and credit unions, which own $1.3 trillion of securities issued or guaranteed by the two mortgage companies. If the mortgage giants ever defaulted on those obligations, banks might be forced to raise billions of dollars in additional capital.

    The large institutions set to report results this week, including Citigroup and Merrill Lynch, are in no danger of failing, but some are expected to report more multibillion-dollar write-offs.

    But time may be running out for some small and midsize lenders. They vary in size and location, but their common woe is the collapsed real estate market and souring mortgage loans. Most of these banks are far smaller than the industry giants that have drawn so much scrutiny from regulators and investors.

    Still, only six lenders have failed so far this year, including IndyMac. In 1994, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation listed 575 banks that it considered to be troubled. As of this spring, the agency was worried about just 90 banks. That number may go up in August, when the government releases an updated list.

    “Failed banks are a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator,” said William Isaac, who was chairman of the F.D.I.C. in the early 1980s and is now the chairman of the Secura Group, a finance consulting firm in Virginia. “So you will see more troubled, more failed banks this year.”

    And yet IndyMac, one of the nation’s largest mortgage lenders, was not on the government’s troubled bank list this spring — an indication that other troubled banks may be below the radar.

    The F.D.I.C. has $53 billion set aside to reimburse consumers for deposits lost at failed banks. IndyMac will eat up $4 billion to $8 billion of that fund, the agency estimates, and that could force it to raise more money from the banks that it insures.

    The agency does not disclose which banks it thinks are troubled. But analysts are circulating their own lists, and short sellers — investors who bet against stocks — are piling on. In recent weeks, the share prices of some regional banks, like the BankUnited Financial Corporation, in Florida, and the Downey Financial Corporation, in California, have stumbled hard amid concern about their financial health. A BankUnited spokeswoman said the lender had largely avoided risky subprime loans.

    In his “Who Is Next?” report over the weekend, Mr. Bove listed the fraction of loans at banks that are nonperforming, meaning, for example, that the assets have been foreclosed on or that payments are 90 days past due. He came up with what he called a danger zone, which was a percentage above 5 percent. Seven banks fell in this category.

    An important issue for the regional and community banks will be whether they have managed to sell their riskiest loans to Wall Street firms.

    And the government may have fewer failures than in the past because private investment funds might buy some troubled lenders. Regulators are considering rule changes that would allow private equity firms to buy larger shares of banks, and several prominent investors, like Wilbur Ross, have raised funds to leap in.

    Eric Dash contributed reporting.

    by Louise Story
    Monday, July 14, 2008
    Last edited by HRx; 07-15-2008, 04:53 AM.

    #2
    Thats bad news for alot of people, but good news for some. For those with good credit looking to buy a house in the future this is gettin to be prime time. For those with jobs in stable markets (i.e. jobs that never experience layoffs and the like) they will be able to prosper. For those filing BK and hoping to have an easy time of it, its good times. Oh and for people that like to watch america fall on its butt (not me BTW) its like new years every day. Just my opinion, trying to find a bright spot.

    Oh and ten dollars says BofA stays afloat, they make like 300 bucks a year from me in overdraft fees!
    Last edited by Priceless ProSe; 07-14-2008, 08:02 PM.
    Not only am I not a lawyer, the California BAR association has sent me numerous letters telling me not to even THINK about going to law school. In fact, the lay advice I provide is not even good. In the end remember, you get what you pay for, and here in BK land were not the best at paying.

    Comment


      #3
      I know everyone here already knows about these problems but here are a couple of intersting things in this one, like where they say it would not be quite as bad as it was two decades ago on the banks.

      I thought it was crazy that they are taking down each bank one by one predicting which ones will go under first & making a list of about 150 banks that will die in the next 18 months. It will be the small & mid size lenders that take the greatest punch, just like the low & middle class are beginning to really suffer.

      Will one of them be your bank?

      while our drunk government, sneezes & debates over the best way to wire tap all our phones!

      Comment


        #4
        Yeah but this kind of speculation is sometimes a self fullfilling prophecy. They intend to make these lists to help banks in trouble (I assume) but it just causes investors to get scared and pull money out, thus sending the stock price lower (and so on and so forth)

        I really wish they would relax with the fannie/freddie talk unless there gonna do something about it, I dont see it as productive. Not to say they should cover things up, but wild speculatio is never good either.
        Last edited by Priceless ProSe; 07-14-2008, 08:06 PM.
        Not only am I not a lawyer, the California BAR association has sent me numerous letters telling me not to even THINK about going to law school. In fact, the lay advice I provide is not even good. In the end remember, you get what you pay for, and here in BK land were not the best at paying.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Priceless ProSe View Post
          Thats bad news for alot of people, but good news for some. For those with good credit looking to buy a house in the future this is gettin to be prime time.
          For those with jobs in stable markets (i.e. jobs that never experience layoffs and the like) they will be able to prosper.
          For those filing BK and hoping to have an easy time of it, its good times. Oh and for people that like to watch america fall on its butt (not me BTW) its like new years every day. Just my opinion, trying to find a bright spot.
          Fortunately I have one of those jobs & I am seeing a lot more discover cards passing through than I ever have & that is a good sign for us. It is going to be much harder to buy a house in the future, unless like you say their credit rating was not destroyed by these problems like most of the people here so they will need to wait a couple of years for a decent rate.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Priceless ProSe View Post
            Yeah but this kind of speculation is sometimes a self fullfilling prophecy. They intend to make these lists to help banks in trouble (I assume) but it just causes investors to get scared and pull money out, thus sending the stock price lower (and so on and so forth)

            I really wish they would relax with the fannie/freddie talk unless there gonna do something about it, I dont see it as productive. Not to say they should cover things up, but wild speculatio is never good either.
            Agreed because if you look at the end it reveals a 90 day danger zone of payments not being made & that is where they get it from. I am also tired of the fan/fred talk as well. It drains me real quick.

            Originally posted by Bandit View Post
            Fortunately It is going to be much harder to buy a house in the future, .
            What I mean is, the rules for getting a home loan will be much tougher.

            Comment


              #7
              Good times. Im in southern california and Im hoping in two years or so house prices are similar to what they are now. I know that there will continue to be forclosures for a year or so, but once all of these are off the market it should level out a little.

              Im looking at a place in the high desert about an hour from LA. The house prices went down the tubes out there (Lancaster/Palmdale). The thing I like is the current ratio between LA and this area. For a similar house in LA it was maybe 80-100 percent more, but now the houses in LA are like five times as much, I dont see this gap persisting. An hour (or two) commute in LA is pretty norm. I see houses everyday, 75k for a 30y/o 4 bed, 150k for a 2k sq ft home built in 2006 (these same houses cost almost 3 times as much in 2006). Its funny how they say house prices have dropped 10-15 percent or whatever out here, the truth is they only record stats for sold houses and most of those are mid-high level homes that havent moved much in price.

              If I ever finish my grad degree I wont even need credit at 75k, 20% saved up in three months and the house paid so fast ill get a penalty!

              Anyways, like I said, good times for some.
              Not only am I not a lawyer, the California BAR association has sent me numerous letters telling me not to even THINK about going to law school. In fact, the lay advice I provide is not even good. In the end remember, you get what you pay for, and here in BK land were not the best at paying.

              Comment


                #8
                They'll have to tighten loan qualification.

                The problem is they allow a relatively small ratio of capital to loans currently. That's what killed IndyMac. A run by investors to withdraw capital, the sad part is it could happen at almost any bank in the United States.....most debt in the United States is owned by China or Saudi Arabia...a scary thought....
                May 31st, 2007: Petition Filed by my lawyer
                July 2nd, 2007: 341 Meeting Held
                September 4th, 2007: Discharged and Closed.

                Comment


                  #9
                  LOL Don't ya just love the NY Times. The epitome of yellow journalism.

                  Busch was sold for 52 billion to Belgium today. Indy had cap of a mere 32 mil.
                  Indy wrote B,C,D paper, plain and simple.

                  The sky is not falling.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Bandit View Post
                    What I mean is, the rules for getting a home loan will be much tougher.
                    Yeah, should make things more stable. I tried to talk people out of doin some dumb (real estate) stuff over the last few years, hopefully this will keep people like this from gettin hurt cuz they sure dont listen to me.

                    One of my relatives got caught up with a real estate "flipper". Guy told him to draw the equity out of his house and buy a place in vegas (this is 05/06 mind you). The "plan" was that, since real estate always doubles every three years (LOL!) he would refinance every two years and take the equity to make his house payments thus living rent free for the rest of his life. I told him, dude if the bank ever doesnt give you a loan, or houses dont keep goin up what are u gonna do? He told me, that guys rich he knows what hes doin. I told him hes rich fro suckers like you (the guy made like 60k from himbefore he took off, after the deal was closed no calls ever again). He was so good (the con) that none of his name is on any paperwork.

                    Last one promise, my other relative bought a 330k house (out in the desert i mentioned) which is now worth 140k (tops). 12% interest only 40 year loan with ballon payments and its adjustable beggining soon. I keep trying to tell him to walk away but instead he filed chap 13 and continues to make the payment. The kicker here is......HE DOESNT LIVE THERE! and he wont rent it out. He claims its an investment and gives him a tax ride-off. Hes been payin for two years now. People like this should not be allowed to buy a house, is there anyway the new "tougher" rules could include an IQ test?
                    Not only am I not a lawyer, the California BAR association has sent me numerous letters telling me not to even THINK about going to law school. In fact, the lay advice I provide is not even good. In the end remember, you get what you pay for, and here in BK land were not the best at paying.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by fltoo View Post
                      LOL Don't ya just love the NY Times. The epitome of yellow journalism.

                      Busch was sold for 52 billion to Belgium today. Indy had cap of a mere 32 mil.
                      Indy wrote B,C,D paper, plain and simple.

                      The sky is not falling.

                      last week we sold the chrysler building, this week we give away our home made beer...should we give Ford to China next week & Chevy to Japan in August?

                      hey, then they can send back the 2.00 an hour jobs & we can make the nobs for the stock car stereos.

                      do we have any bridges & toll roads left we can sell to foreign lands. geesh

                      We dont own Miller either. Cheers! This Buds not for you any more, it's for Belgium.


                      Originally posted by JRScott View Post
                      They'll have to tighten loan qualification.

                      The problem is they allow a relatively small ratio of capital to loans currently. That's what killed IndyMac. A run by investors to withdraw capital, the sad part is it could happen at almost any bank in the United States.....most debt in the United States is owned by China or Saudi Arabia...a scary thought....
                      you know it is scary because every country in the world is going to own the United States through debt & giving them all our companies, buildings, roads, oil...basicly the entire land mass. Have they tried selling any of the Great Lakes yet? or does Canada have something to say about that....sell them to Canada!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Priceless ProSe View Post

                        One of my relatives got caught up with a real estate "flipper". Guy told him to draw the equity out of his house and buy a place in vegas (this is 05/06 mind you). The "plan" was that, since real estate always doubles every three years (LOL!) he would refinance every two years and take the equity to make his house payments thus living rent free for the rest of his life. I told him, dude if the bank ever doesnt give you a loan, or houses dont keep goin up what are u gonna do? He told me, that guys rich he knows what hes doin. I told him hes rich fro suckers like you (the guy made like 60k from himbefore he took off, after the deal was closed no calls ever again). He was so good (the con) that none of his name is on any paperwork.

                        Last one promise, my other relative bought a 330k house (out in the desert i mentioned) which is now worth 140k (tops). 12% interest only 40 year loan with ballon payments and its adjustable beggining soon. I keep trying to tell him to walk away but instead he filed chap 13 and continues to make the payment. The kicker here is......HE DOESNT LIVE THERE! and he wont rent it out. He claims its an investment and gives him a tax ride-off. Hes been payin for two years now. People like this should not be allowed to buy a house, is there anyway the new "tougher" rules could include an IQ test?
                        That is exactly what did it to us. Some agents are so mad because they cant flip any more & some of them had no idea what they were doing anyway. It made them all look bad when some of them sold honestly. Like that Casey kid did the same basic thing & got 2 million in debt with 8 houses in 8 months all on liar loans & 0 down.

                        I like the IQ test idea

                        BTW-I was suprized at your ealier quotes on some homes an hour out of LA. That is very cheap as I remember when I lived out there 12 years ago, those prices did not exist unless you got into Sacramento or in the smaller towns on the border of Nevada & AZ but nowhere near LA or the coast. Are you sure there is no fault getting ready to fall through where those houses are?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thanks for the chat all. It was great. Got hit the hay for another day.

                          Have a good night

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Bandit View Post
                            That is exactly what did it to us. Some agents are so mad because they cant flip any more & some of them had no idea what they were doing anyway. It made them all look bad when some of them sold honestly. Like that Casey kid did the same basic thing & got 2 million in debt with 8 houses in 8 months all on liar loans & 0 down.

                            I like the IQ test idea

                            BTW-I was suprized at your ealier quotes on some homes an hour out of LA. That is very cheap as I remember when I lived out there 12 years ago, those prices did not exist unless you got into Sacramento or in the smaller towns on the border of Nevada & AZ but nowhere near LA or the coast. Are you sure there is no fault getting ready to fall through where those houses are?
                            Yeah I think alot of the people that had no business buying houses were doing it out there right before the bubble burst, the houses in LA were too expensive by then and most of these people were getting 300-400k approvals which could get them something decent out here. There all walkin away now.
                            There actually is a fault somewhere out here i think (i myself arent from CA and have yet to experience an earthquake). Night
                            Not only am I not a lawyer, the California BAR association has sent me numerous letters telling me not to even THINK about going to law school. In fact, the lay advice I provide is not even good. In the end remember, you get what you pay for, and here in BK land were not the best at paying.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Priceless ProSe View Post
                              Yeah I think alot of the people that had no business buying houses were doing it out there right before the bubble burst, the houses in LA were too expensive by then and most of these people were getting 300-400k approvals which could get them something decent out here. There all walkin away now.
                              There actually is a fault somewhere out here i think (i myself arent from CA and have yet to experience an earthquake). Night

                              I dont remember the exact story or town but they were building homes right near a faultline & we never know why. Maybe the land is cheaper or people just ignore the risk?, were not aware at the time?, greed?

                              San Bernadino but other towns too where homes are built right on top of it. LOL! They must not have known when they bought or built.

                              San Andreas Fault - article by David Lynch - map, pictures and aerial view.


                              I wonder what a home right over the fault line is worth.

                              Comment

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