Senate to Middle Class: Drop Dead ...a message from Michael Moore

[On The Brink]

Bandit what is with the trumpeting for the "poor picked on UAW" ?
What they would hire what you call cheap labor is a very good chance more than I make and most people make working 60 hours a week every week!
I would be one of the 1st in line to jump on an assembly line at a major auto manufacturer at what you call cheap labor and be dang glad to get it!
Just like the airline industry there are some skilled positions such as pilot mechanic that require extra education and above average intelligence that should be paid for there skills, but you cant tell me some cashier handing out boarding passes or Joe bob laborer throwing luggage on a conveyor belt or washing planes needs to make that kind of money...can you honestly?
I beleive the unions started out as being for the worker and a good idea but now it's turned into just like government a bunch of whiney fat cats picking the workers pockets while looking them straight in the eye and daring them to resist!

[Bandit]

Bandit what is with the trumpeting for the "poor picked on UAW" ?
What they would hire what you call cheap labor is a very good chance more than I make and most people make working 60 hours a week every week!
I would be one of the 1st in line to jump on an assembly line at a major auto manufacturer at what you call cheap labor and be dang glad to get it!
Just like the airline industry there are some skilled positions such as pilot mechanic that require extra education and above average intelligence that should be paid for there skills, but you cant tell me some cashier handing out boarding passes or Joe bob laborer throwing luggage on a conveyor belt or washing planes needs to make that kind of money...can you honestly?
I beleive the unions started out as being for the worker and a good idea but now it's turned into just like government a bunch of whiney fat cats picking the workers pockets while looking them straight in the eye and daring them to resist!

I never suggested that everyone should make the same mount of money no matter what they do.

You have two choices then. You can jump on an assembly line for a union and make a decent living with some insurance & possibly retirement, or you can jump on an assembly line doing the same work with no union, make minimum wage or maybe a little above that with fear & threats of being disposable.

You still have both options today.

[Bandit]

While the unions do serve a purpose sometimes, the UAW has overreached. IF they are really interested in saving the jobs longterm they should have agreed to the Corker plan and made pay and benefit concessions in 2009. Without them they will not be viable. To me its better to know you'll have a job for the next ten years at even say 1/2 x instead of having no job in 6 months at x pay.

Because if we bail them out without the necessary concessions that's where we'll be in 6 months or less, they'll need more money or they'll have to file then. Under their current business model with realistic sales projections following the trends of the last 30 years they can never dig themselves out without major restructuring.

Not all unions are the same.

Then start explaining all the jobs that go under with no union.

then explain why the already richest people in the world who have failed get bailed out but blue collar UAW who is failing do not.

[allavdj]

...then explain why the already richest people in the world who have failed get bailed out but blue collar UAW who is failing do not.

I hope not to set off a bomb here, but I'm gonna chime in anyways.

(I don't speak for anybody specific, any specific group of people, or any groups of people currently involved in the bailouts)

The "rich" invest their money, start businesses, create jobs, and spur the economy.

The "blue collar" workers work, buy groceries, and get by.

Our economy as a whole needs both groups of people, BUT...BUT...

There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming.

And now we have the blue collar folks who see all the gadgets galore, big houses, nice cars, etc and think: I need that too. That need requires higher wages and more credit. All of a sudden, the blue collar workers are encroaching onto wealthy territory and the wealthy need MORE to have the status of being "wealthy". It's created a vicious cycle that has plunged our economy into a war between classes where the rich have to be richer to be rich, the middle class goes into debt to keep up with the rich, and the poor just gets screwed.

In short, bailing out blue collar workers gives them more money to spend on "stuff" (stuff being homes, cars, and any other consumables)

Bailing out the wealthy can POTENTIALLY give those people money to create new jobs and businesses...

I doubt that will happen though

And it's Bush's fault (Not really, but I had to throw that in there for the liberals )

[Bandit]

I hope not to set off a bomb here, but I'm gonna chime in anyways.

(I don't speak for anybody specific, any specific group of people, or any groups of people currently involved in the bailouts)

The "rich" invest their money, start businesses, create jobs, and spur the economy.

The "blue collar" workers work, buy groceries, and get by.

Our economy as a whole needs both groups of people, BUT...BUT...

There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming.

And now we have the blue collar folks who see all the gadgets galore, big houses, nice cars, etc and think: I need that too. That need requires higher wages and more credit. All of a sudden, the blue collar workers are encroaching onto wealthy territory and the wealthy need MORE to have the status of being "wealthy". It's created a vicious cycle that has plunged our economy into a war between classes where the rich have to be richer to be rich, the middle class goes into debt to keep up with the rich, and the poor just gets screwed.

In short, bailing out blue collar workers gives them more money to spend on "stuff" (stuff being homes, cars, and any other consumables)

Bailing out the wealthy can POTENTIALLY give those people money to create new jobs and businesses...

I doubt that will happen though

And it's Bush's fault (Not really, but I had to throw that in there for the liberals )

simply consuming?

it is a two way street. if it were not for the working class making the wealthy their money, they would be doing the work themselves.
your example there is exactly what is failing this country. reaganomics does not work past jumpstarting the economy when you destroy the middle class.

Big government has made it so the little guy cant even own a cow today.

The only thing that is Bushes fault is his last 8 years of presidency seeing that every policy & decison he has made, has failed.

[allavdj]

simply consuming?

it is a two way street. if it were not for the working class making the wealthy their money, they would be doing the work themselves.
your example there is exactly what is failing this country. reaganomics does not work past jumpstarting the economy when you destroy the middle class.

Big government has made it so the little guy cant even own a cow today.

The only thing that is Bushes fault is his last 8 years of presidency seeing that every policy & decison he has made, has failed.

I didn't say the blue collar folks were simply consuming I said:

"There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming."

And incase I need to further clarify: There are a bunch of rich folks that aren't doing anything for the economy besides buying shit. They aren't investing or creating anything, they are content just being consumer *****s.

I REALIZE that somebody has to make all this stuff that people buy. I'm happy those people do what they do. I think they all deserve a big fat congressional medal of "Thanks for making stuff for me to buy". It boils down to very simple economics:

Some guy makes stuff

Some guys bosses the guy that makes stuff

Some guy sells the stuff that the guy made

Some guy bosses the guy selling the stuff

Some guy buys the stuff

It only stands to reason that everybody on that list isn't making the same amount of money. If the guy making the stuff isn't happy with his rate of pay, he needs to work his way up the chain. If he doesn't have the skills to do that, he needs to go out and get the skills. If he doesn't want to go out and get the skills, he needs to reevaluate how much pay is "enough", not piss and moan because his boss makes more money than he does.

[Bandit]

I didn't say the blue collar folks were simply consuming I said:

"There is a massive sector of wealthy Americans who are wealthy, but aren't taking on the typical roles of the wealthy. They aren't out investing in the local economies, they aren't starting new businesses, they aren't creating job, they are simply consuming."

And incase I need to further clarify: There are a bunch of rich folks that aren't doing anything for the economy besides buying shit. They aren't investing or creating anything, they are content just being consumer *****s.

I REALIZE that somebody has to make all this stuff that people buy. I'm happy those people do what they do. I think they all deserve a big fat congressional medal of "Thanks for making stuff for me to buy". It boils down to very simple economics:

Some guy makes stuff

Some guys bosses the guy that makes stuff

Some guy sells the stuff that the guy made

Some guy bosses the guy selling the stuff

Some guy buys the stuff

It only stands to reason that everybody on that list isn't making the same amount of money. If the guy making the stuff isn't happy with his rate of pay, he needs to work his way up the chain. If he doesn't have the skills to do that, he needs to go out and get the skills. If he doesn't want to go out and get the skills, he needs to reevaluate how much pay is "enough", not piss and moan because his boss makes more money than he does.

I understand all that.

Economics only works until politics get involved. Then it does not matter what your education is or how hard you work up the chain or even how much one would piss & moan. Some people are fed up with working because they can do better by going on welfare & food stamps, then get their own cash in different ways by working without politics.

I don't really care any way what happens because my job is pretty secure considering what I do is what people turn to during hard times. I am always amazed at the kind of business my cousin has turned that makes money for our family in both good & hard times.

[shabam]

Michael Moore is such a joke!
Global warming lol . Dont know what the weather is like else where but could use some of that!
I'm a truck driver and there will be no electric semis in mine or my childrens lifetime. Besides poor michael moores so much for the poor guy but how does he figure the poor people are gonna buy all those electric cars, are you kidding me LMAO! I bet him and the bigger farse Al "Global Warming" Gore are not driving an electric car anywhere anytime soon! What a pair of jokes! These ever tightening Global warming farse regulations are whats got the automakers over a barrel right now....that and the unions!
Please just consider the source of this story lol1
With that being said they should not have given wallstreet the bailout that they did I do agree on that!

Michael Moore probably thinks we can print up monopoly money and hand it out.

[shabam]

All I'll say is that I used to respect Michael Moore because I thought his story was good.

Now, I feel sorry for him. He's lost my respect. As just posted, most of his claims, this time are "unsubstantiated" by the facts.

The article actually started pretty good, until he started laying all the blame at the feet of the Republicans.

I'm tired.

He sounds like a certain poster in this forum who basically makes stuff up as he goes along. Rather than looking at the facts.

[shabam]

Rest assured, once government does their dirty deed of finally disolving GM, which I feel they have wanted for three decades with their fingers all over it, thus you get more cheap labor (that wont stimulate the economy) for the wealthy foreigners to hire americans for nothing. Then unemployment is going to an all time high. You just might be lucky if you get a less than minimum wage job after all those millions who are connected to GM are brought down with it.
.

The government cannot force people to buy GM's cars. So you can blame them all you want but the problems lies within the companies themselves. Toyota and Honda not only build better cars, have better fuel economy, are safer but also tend to be on par of cheaper than the big three auto. So the choice for the consumer is easy.

[shabam]

Do you know just who is buying foreclosed properties en masse down here in South Florida? Foreigners. Not the illegal alien type, but those who reside abroad in their home country and are gleefully picking up what our working class (and some of our upper class too!) can no longer afford.

This is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind.

They know how to manage their money better than us. Good on them I say. Maybe this will teach us a lesson on how to work, save and invest our money. As these people overseas obviously do. They have a completely different culture with regards to spending, saving, recycling, reusing, minimizing waste, utilizing land overseas.

[shabam]

I never suggested that everyone should make the same mount of money no matter what they do.

You have two choices then. You can jump on an assembly line for a union and make a decent living with some insurance & possibly retirement, or you can jump on an assembly line doing the same work with no union, make minimum wage or maybe a little above that with fear & threats of being disposable.

You still have both options today.

And the free market has decided, we prefer the latter like Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. Most other people in this country that do not work under a union have to actually work for their money. What that means is that if we slack off we get fired. If we work well we get a raise and even promoted. If there is a demand for our product or work they hire more people. If demand falls as with this current economy, they have to let people go. They usually let the worst performing go first. I know, I know alien concepts for many union workers. Whereas unions like the UAW prefer that they dictate who comes and who goes. Who gets hired and who does not, regardless of skill or their actual performance.

This is not 1930 and most management teams know that you get what you pay for. If they hired everyone on a minimum wage they would only get a certain type of worker and quality of worker. So that theory of yours that they are going to exploit everyone goes out the window quite fast.

As stated earlier by others, the union is generally about paying everyone the same regardless of the work performed, the quality of the work or their skill level. Much like communists, unions believe that the broom pusher should be paid as well as the engineer who designs the car. Such silly concepts, communism, have failed in most countries and lead to third world conditions there. Without an engineer blue collar workers have no car to build.

[shabam]

It only stands to reason that everybody on that list isn't making the same amount of money. If the guy making the stuff isn't happy with his rate of pay, he needs to work his way up the chain. If he doesn't have the skills to do that, he needs to go out and get the skills. If he doesn't want to go out and get the skills, he needs to reevaluate how much pay is "enough", not piss and moan because his boss makes more money than he does.

Two excellent posts. I particularly liked the above points.

Most other people have realized that excluding the sale of narcotics, which sounds like what another poster is suggesting, you need to re-skill, get an education or work for yourself. America is an entrepreneurial country and a great example of this is Henry Fords first car. It is wrong for anyone to believe they should have a job for life and then blame it on the rich because the industry and world has changed.

We are a service based economy. Our Manufacturing sector is moving towards high-end products which require someone to be re-skilled and retrained. We are no longer interested in smelting the steel or aluminum.

[Bandit]

And the free market has decided, we prefer the latter like Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. Most other people in this country that do not work under a union have to actually work for their money. What that means is that if we slack off we get fired. If we work well we get a raise and even promoted. If there is a demand for our product or work they hire more people. If demand falls as with this current economy, they have to let people go. They usually let the worst performing go first. I know, I know alien concepts for many union workers. Whereas unions like the UAW prefer that they dictate who comes and who goes. Who gets hired and who does not, regardless of skill or their actual performance.

This is not 1930 and most management teams know that you get what you pay for. If they hired everyone on a minimum wage they would only get a certain type of worker and quality of worker. So that theory of yours that they are going to exploit everyone goes out the window quite fast.

As stated earlier by others, the union is generally about paying everyone the same regardless of the work performed, the quality of the work or their skill level. Much like communists, unions believe that the broom pusher should be paid as well as the engineer who designs the car. Such silly concepts, communism, have failed in most countries and lead to third world conditions there. Without an engineer blue collar workers have no car to build.

I never said the broom pusher would make the same as the designer, so do not put words into my mouth.

Freemarket did not decide that. The politicians & eltists decided it when they sold their country to foreigners.
Even if you pay them twice or the minimum, They still cannot make ends meet, pay for insurance & raise a family today.

Just look at what is overseas & the USA is doing the same thing & is headed for the same lame duck third world conditions. The signs are everywhere.

[Bandit]

They know how to manage their money better than us. Good on them I say. Maybe this will teach us a lesson on how to work, save and invest our money. As these people overseas obviously do. They have a completely different culture with regards to spending, saving, recycling, reusing, minimizing waste, utilizing land overseas.

at 50 cents a week in china & mexico the working class has savings?

they do not clean up their mess overseas.

how are they teaching us a lesson again?