Senate to Middle Class: Drop Dead ...a message from Michael Moore

[allavdj]

You two are just going around in circles and are going to have to agree to disagree.

[shabam]

I am still waiting to hear your proposal on how they should fix it.

Obviously you don't agree with personal responsibility. Or someone being trained with new skills in a new field, going back to school to acquire an education or starting a business.

[shabam]

You two are just going around in circles and are going to have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe we can agree enough to disagree

[Bandit]

I am still waiting to hear your proposal on how they should fix it.

I already told you. Government needs to GET OUT...they have too much power over the citizens & they do not lead. They are politiicans not leaders.

[Bandit]

You two are just going around in circles and are going to have to agree to disagree.

yeppers.

at least it was a little cheap labor entertainment. talk is cheap, what can I say


do I sound like one of those nutty politicians yet?

I have to get ready to leave for my two week trip this weekend anyway & I definately am not taking this with me.

[shabam]

I don't have any hard feelings. We just have totally different philosophies on the workplace, employers and who is responsible for our individual future.

[Bandit]

I don't have any hard feelings. We just have totally different philosophies on the workplace, employers and who is responsible for our individual future.

what you are doing is what we have been doing for the last 30 years and it has failed this country miserably. Trickle down economics does not work & it has nothing to do with unions. I dont know why that is so hard to understand. Reagan was a good president for his day & what was happening at that time, but his theory only works to jump start it...it will not sustain itself & they are going to realize when you push the middle class out, everyone will lose. iT is common sense & history proves what I am saying is true. This is why Rome failed & why China & the Arab world sucks so bad.

You cannot supress people that way & expect a nation to thrive.

All I can think is, you think because the low wage states are all making low wages in factories that will straighten things out, but it isn't. I Know so many people in the south would rather work for low wages than high wages and I never understood that while the turnover rate is enormous. My stepfather is from Alabama & he does not get it either.

The immediate future is screwed up beyond recognition. If you really look at government & be honest, no one knows what they are doing for this country outside of their own personal agendas & they are being thrown out of office left & right. NOne of them have the answers. I have never seen the USA in such chaos & anguish from coast to coast in my life, but it is like you think everything is humming along just fine & dandy with no problems except for unions. Unions are the problem for everything in your mind.

I dont get how anyone can say $14 an hour is good enough to feed & raise a family in 2009.

You have this self/individual thing going on & I am more of a group person & what is best for everyone, not just for myself. That goes for business too because I know that screwing people over is going to come back to me.

It isn't an argument any more. I just dont get it.

[JRScott]

Not all unions are the same.

Then start explaining all the jobs that go under with no union.

then explain why the already richest people in the world who have failed get bailed out but blue collar UAW who is failing do not.

The Steel Workers unions and the Airline Unions were largely responsible for the bankruptcies of those industries.

The primary problem with all business that fail is the same.

They have a higher output than input.

That is they spend more than they make, this always leads to bankruptcy.

The problem is our society in general for the last 30 years has tried to emphasize greed. Easy credit led folks to be overleveraged, not only on the personal level but many businesses and the government. If we cannot learn quickly that we must live a lower standard of living that we can afford, then nothing we do will stop the collapse coming.

You'll note that I was very much against bailing out wall street as well, it rewarded bad behavior which only of course leads to more bad behavior. I am hopeful that congress will not authorize the release of the last 350 billion. Indeed I'd like to see each of the companies that have received money from it having to give a full accounting and plan as they've asked the car companies for.

[Genenco]

..... I Know so many people in the south would rather work for low wages than high wages and I never understood that while the turnover rate is enormous. My stepfather is from Alabama & he does not get it either..

This reminds me of the book (By Studs Terkel "Working" Not a good read but interesting) in where he does talk to management and workers in a Ford Plant.

In the worker group, you have some who disparage management for some "Percieved abuses" which basically comes down to "Work faster and harder" and the workers see it as "Work harder and faster because I want a bigger bonus"

And of course, there are "Attempted abuses" which can be stopped by the union.

In talking to management, there was one manager who spoke about trying to bring some of the workers up into management. He quote was telling in that in encouraging the workers to shoot for higher positions they'd rather say "Naw, I'm just one of the guys" type of attitude..In short "No thanks, I don't need more hassles in my life"

And in a slightly different talk (One worker who did come up) who mentioned he'd have been happy to be sort of the "Rotating Guy" Who gave bathroom breaks and such to the workers when needed. When they approached him about "Management" he took to it like a duck to water.

Like I did say in another post, there's some who are willing to try, just that a bit of encouragement and drive are needed. well, he got it and was moving up.

.....
The immediate future is screwed up beyond recognition. If you really look at government & be honest, no one knows what they are doing for this country outside of their own personal agendas & they are being thrown out of office left & right. NOne of them have the answers. I have never seen the USA in such chaos & anguish from coast to coast in my life, but it is like you think everything is humming along just fine & dandy with no problems except for unions. Unions are the problem for everything in your mind...

Some years ago, Oregon did a experiement about Congress. They had each person repping their state and they actually made everything work and came out with a multi-billion surplus. At the company I worked at then, a manager had us sitting there discussing how this could be, when in DC, it wasn't working.

I said "It's because none of them had a seat to protect. How would it look to the people who voted you in? How can you defend your actions, when it costs someone a job, or benefits or whatever they had before and now they have to take less?"

Our system WOULD and COULD work very decently if all worked for THE COMMON GOOD. But that ain't going on right now. I don't remember the state, but the the congressman who had the state, got the CIA, FBI and a couple more government agencies moved to his state.

Oh man, did he win re-election big...

.....
I dont get how anyone can say $14 an hour is good enough to feed & raise a family in 2009. .

I don't, but then again, I've seen a working couple feed, raise and pay rent on combined pay at elss then $400 a week...Yep, they did without (And yes, this is midwest) and I am still single (making the same) and I asked them "Why do this, when you could change jobs and make more" Simple answer "We like our jobs"

Had one guy complaining (At woodworking plant) about making $9 an hour, supporting wife and 2 kids. He said "I'd rather cook (Short order cook experience) in a resturant and be happy with my job" I then said "Well, you MADE a choice of getting married, having kids and thus moving to a bigger home and thus incurring more bills. Did you honestly think you could make it on $7 an hour living as you do now?"

He gave me a dirty look and walked away....Yeah, the truth does hurt...

.....
You have this self/individual thing going on & I am more of a group person & what is best for everyone, not just for myself. That goes for business too because I know that screwing people over is going to come back to me. .

And that's why unions are needed in some jobs as they stop abuses that can occur. But in so many, there's nobody who'll stand up and demand the company stop abusing the workers as they are quickly fired for standing up.

And don't forget, those at the top, want to stay there and also have their perks. Not against having them, but I believe that the people below, should get some cream also..But that doesn't happen and thus, the division between workers and management grows each day..[/QUOTE]

.....
It isn't an argument any more. I just dont get it.

I some cases, neither do I...Very puzzling this worker/managemnt concept..Then again, these humans are so strange also

[Bandit]

The Steel Workers unions and the Airline Unions were largely responsible for the bankruptcies of those industries.

The primary problem with all business that fail is the same.

They have a higher output than input.

That is they spend more than they make, this always leads to bankruptcy.

The problem is our society in general for the last 30 years has tried to emphasize greed. Easy credit led folks to be overleveraged, not only on the personal level but many businesses and the government. If we cannot learn quickly that we must live a lower standard of living that we can afford, then nothing we do will stop the collapse coming.

You'll note that I was very much against bailing out wall street as well, it rewarded bad behavior which only of course leads to more bad behavior. I am hopeful that congress will not authorize the release of the last 350 billion. Indeed I'd like to see each of the companies that have received money from it having to give a full accounting and plan as they've asked the car companies for.

Well, we are in agreement except for two things.
a) Take away the pay & seniority from pilots, engineers & the staff on airlines & there are going to be way more problems than just bankruptcy. Start working those people like dogs & see what happens. It is better if they go out of business than to remove the things a union provides in such industries.

b) I dont believe all these companies are going out of business because of the workers being paid too much, as that being the area of overspending where there is no union to blame. What I see is business owners taking advantage of the poor & working class paying very little because they dont care about their help, keeping all the profits for themselves & then they dump the business or make it fold when it gets old & profit declines. It isn't because they overspend. These companies have robbed the poor and made zillions by slave labor here & in these other countries.

Too many corrupt Boss Hoggs.

[Bandit]

I don't, but then again, I've seen a working couple feed, raise and pay rent on combined pay at elss then $400 a week...Yep, they did without (And yes, this is midwest) and I am still single (making the same) and I asked them "Why do this, when you could change jobs and make more" Simple answer "We like our jobs"

Had one guy complaining (At woodworking plant) about making $9 an hour, supporting wife and 2 kids. He said "I'd rather cook (Short order cook experience) in a resturant and be happy with my job" I then said "Well, you MADE a choice of getting married, having kids and thus moving to a bigger home and thus incurring more bills. Did you honestly think you could make it on $7 an hour living as you do now?"

He gave me a dirty look and walked away....Yeah, the truth does hurt...

They aren't really making it though. It only takes a week or two of being out sick or injured & they start to get behind.
There are some great jobs in the cullinary field but when you get to that point you are dealing with people who appreciate & respect food because those cooks wont cook for you if you dont respect & pay them well for doing it. They have to look beyond McDonalds yet these days people will be lucky to get a job there.

I will never understand why the important things in life, such as food & cooks, farmers & waiters, and everything involved to harvest & sustain are the things that people look down on, disrespect & want to pay people the less for. Since when are cheap plastic gadgets & cell phones worth more than food & those who harvest it. Makes no sense. & why so many people both rich & poor treat people in that business with no respect as if they have no intelligence boggles my mind.

They all forget one very important thing...if there was no dishwasher, no one would be going out to eat.

Big government & unfair competition had no business ridding of the family farmer & they did it so people would be forced into the system & not be able to sustain themselves in hard times.
I know someone who went to law school for 7 years & waited tables along the way. He did not have some rich daddy to pay his way.

I some cases, neither do I...Very puzzling this worker/managemnt concept..Then again, these humans are so strange also

Because too often both sides try to take advantage of each other. BUt it is amazing what can happen when you have owners, manager & employees that are working for the best of everyone they work with. Very hard to find.

Mutual respect will never be earned when you have managers/owners who sit on their butts yelling & screaming at the line with threats while the line does all the work, the owner shows off their jaguars & million dollar homes & the workers go home to a slumlord apartment who just happens to be the same guy they work for.
That is where I am coming from.

By the way- I enjoyed your post about Oregon & politics because it is all true!

[Minnymouth]

We can discuss unions and the present economy and what has caused it "till the cows come home"... Many reasons of WHY and HOW this happended.

Lots of folks do not like unions...... and many are union workers that rely on the unions to stand up for them (often this does not happen)... and many do not understand how the union works (for the company and for the workers).

Personally, I have never belonged to a union, nor ever had a union represent me..... I think I can handle THAT myself! And always have.

My oldest brother (retired) was a union steward for UAW for many years. I've seen him lay his own job on the line in defense of a union workers rights.
I've seen him cross picket lines, been threatened with his life, etc. But he always stood up for his workers he represented. He MADE the union work for him and his fellow union members. And he was the 1st in line, when the Union tried to pull the wool over everybodys eyes in a settlement, pay raise, ect.

Unions can be good in the right conditions, and bad in the wrong conditions.

Much of life expectations depends on the "inituitive" of the person. If the person is a "go-getter", they can accomplish much in thier lives, (financially and privately). If they are a "oh-well, my life is okay" person, they will drift with the rest of the crowd.

Often folks feel like its a waste to go back to school (like my age - what would I do with a college degree - I'm retiring!!)- kind of a waste, huh?

Most folks DO NOT live up to their potential, many don't want too!!

If your work hard to succeed, then you should be rewarded for succeeding. If you are a slacker, or just don't care about getting ahead in life, then don't cry because folks have more in life than you do. They have earned it, you haven't...... unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Our society is made up of the very rich (often born rich), self made millionaires, middle-class, folks that live from paycheck to paycheck, and those that live in poverty (often born into it - or choose it) and the
homeless.....

Lack of education holds many back in improving their lifestyle...... but even more are held back with the attitude of "I can't do any better" or " don't want to do any better"...... Some even "think" we owe them a living just because they exist!!!

In our day and time, all levels of folks, should count their blessings....... for most of them have many - good health, sound bodies, and families that love and support them.... no matter what the lifestyle is.

Jealousy goes back to the beginning of time.... everybody "wants the best" or wants what the "Jones have"......

Each person makes their own personal decisions about their lifestyle.... many make wrong decisions that are disasterous in the end. Some make wise decisions for the all around good of the family. To each his own.

Politics, religion, and race and ethinic background are subjects that often get out of hand on this forum. Often the topics have to be removed or banned in the end.

Folks should agree to disagree in good faith when discussing these topics. Then you can have a good debate about them.

You cannot force your beliefs on me anymore than I can force you to see the world as I see it!!! My way may not be right for you, and vise versa!!!

Discuss your topics, BUT keep your ATTITUDES under control when you do!!!

Its the very many races, backgrounds, and beliefs that make our forum one of the best............

Keep an open mind, when discussing topics.............. EVERYONE WILL BENEFIT FROM IT...................

My thoughts on the topics...........

Minny

[Genenco]

They aren't really making it though. It only takes a week or two of being out sick or injured & they start to get behind.

Now that's one thing that hit me in the past 2 years. I worked at a company that paid holidays, vac and sick leave. Heck your birthdayw as ALSO a "Paid Holiday"!

So, going to the midwest was a complete shock (In pay and benefits) to me and while I didn't like it, there wasn't alot of choice about what job to take (Temp companies are not begging for workers like on east/west coasts) and so I worked at what I could get.

Being hired also was a surprise.."You must understand, we need you here to work, not out goofing off. So, we don't have "Sick Pay" for you if you get sick..Oh, but we Do have "No points, no pay" benefit.

Great, out sick and I don't get points accumulated because I have 5 no points days..Of course, I don't get PAID either.

So what does a person do? Yep, they COME INTO WORK SICK. Which of course, exposes alot of workers to something they'd really not have.

And of course, those who do come in, are a danger to everyone and themselves..But management no longer cares about this...I am just stunned things could change so in such a little time.

By the way- I enjoyed your post about Oregon & politics because it is all true!

Yeah, my manager then sat there after I said that and nodded his head...It would have been funny, had it not been true..But it was...

[Minnymouth]

A lot of places no longer pay "sick leave".....

My office is one of them..... my boss says "I'm not paying you to be out sick" - your not getting any work done, so why pay you??? If I did pay you sick leave - all I'm doing is encouraging you to take a day off and call in!! If we are out sick we have to use our vacation time to make it up. Actually, we are forced into using our vacation time, for each hour we are out sick. If we run out of vacation time, then we have to work over to make-up time.....

There's been many a year that my vacation time was used to be out sick. Anybody iwith allergies or asthma can relate to this. One of the girls was out with open-heart surgery...... had to make up all her time even if it stretched into the next years vacation time.

If someone in her family was sick she could have used the Family Leave Act, but since it was her that was sick, all time had to be made up.....

Now how stupid is THAT..............................

People have accidents, sickness, deaths, that require them to be off work.... Its not like they can actually do anything about it...... but yet they are penalized for it by some business. Heaven forbid they have a child in school...............

Business's that work as team members - thrive.............. others often fail... thru their own stupidity or organizational setups. A business can destroy itself from the inside out...............

Employees thrive when a boss "cares", they give their jobs the "heart and soul" in work production and good work ethics. Its a WIN, WIN to everyone..... the business, the boss, and the employee. Everybody has a purpose and goal and are rewarded by acheiving it.

Most corporations today are run by supervisors who are "company men" and are trained to take care of the company, and we'll reward YOU - not the folks who work under you.

The "union" is supposed to protect the little man, but often it is only for the good of "all the union members"..... a persoanl battle of one individual is often neglected.

A good thriving business today can thank their employees for making it so. They can appreciate the input they get from employees reguarding how things are run, suggestions for improvements on the job etc. A good business has good management skills, execellent employees, and benefits to entich them all........

Unfortunately, many businesses are run by dictators..... work you'll get paid and that's it!!!. That's why many are failing in our socety today....

[JRScott]

Our company allows us to use vacation days for sick days, but that's all we get. We also get three days for funerals.

Sadly most of the Unions anymore are about enriching the union leaders and not the workers. It's much the same problem we have with the majority of our elected officials.

I've never worked for a Union though my dad was part of the Teamsters. I've primarily always worked in right to work states. My dad used to tell me about his union meetings, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would show up at the meetings and basically make the decisions because no one else would come. Then of course they'd all grumble at changes. That's much like our nation's politics, less than half the citizens of this nation of voting age have cast ballots in the elections for the last 20 years. I've been guilty myself skipping a couple times (well in 2000 I couldn't vote because I moved and didn't think to file an absentee ballot in my previous state). I made sure to vote this time though