4 lawyers-which one to believe for Ch.7 ?!! Help !

[Somehow]

I've talked to 4 attorneys about this issue, and have 4 different answers--don't know who is closest to being right. The question we MUST have answered before risking a Chapter 7 filing is how the trustee might look at the 2 of us renting a "big" house when we could be in something smaller or an apartment---and thus would use that as an excuse to disallow that "extra" rent we pay as disposable income that should be available for creditors.

The rent we pay for a house is high, but NOT because it is a super-duper house, but because it is bigger than the 2 of us really need (no kids). It is 2,100 square feet, 4 BR (3 of them really small though)....decent house in a decent neighborhood...that's it. We COULD be comfortable in a smaller house or an apartment, but NOBODY will even talk to us because of our bad credit. Two years ago when we rented this place, EVEN THEN we had to pay 6 months in advance. This is all because we live in the WHITE-WHITE-HOT real estate area known as Orange County, CA. It is so hot, nobody has to take a risk on a credit problem tenant. I've called dozens of aprtments and individuals over the last month, and every one of them has said, "don't waste your time applying". It's that bad. We are stuck in this "more than we really need" place. The only place we could get now, with our credit status, would be a 900 square feet 60-year old rat's nest in crack-town.

One attorney says they have to take us as we are--not as we "could be". Another says that it would pass muster because we have been here 2 years---that it's not some slick move to "play" the system, such as moving FROM a cheaper apartment to this bigger pricier place 2 months ago, and then filing for BK. Another says he thinks it will be a problem.

All these lawyers are specialists in BK (small firms, not big BK mills), charge higher fees than most, so not just the cheap-o slam-dunk type guys (presumably), claim to know the BK customs in the district, are familiar with the BK judges, know some trustees, etc. So WHY so much difference in opinions??

Please, can you guys weigh in on this, and helpe me develop an opinion? Do you think the trustees, in general, want to make an issue out of where THEY think you shold live, and how much THEY think you should pay? And if it doesn't match their idea, then they just disallow the rental expesnse.....I know the NEW laws will dictate that situation, using the IRS' laughable "guidelines", but that is not the way it is now to my knowledge.

[HHM]

Generally, they do take you as you are. However, the reason that know one has an answer is that no one really knows what will be the Bee in the Trustees bonnet from week to week.

Note, you never mentioned what your rent is?

That statute says you are allowed "reasonably necessary living expenses". Obviously, housing is necessary, but you don't have to be a pauper to file BK. I don't think a 2100 square foot house is excessive for two people, if it were 4000 square fee, then maybe, but not 2100.

However, its hard for any of us here to give you any meaningful insight because you are asking us about a single factor. What are you combined monthly incomes, how close are you on your budget, do you expenses exceed or are less than you income?

[Somehow]

Thanks, HHM---I'm glad you asked about the details. I purposefully left them out......in the post I first put together, I had ALL the details in, and the post was HUGE. so I decided to do the gist of it, and then supply details if someone needed them to form a better opinion. We do need to get this figured out with the help of people such as you, because the lawyers just aren't going to be able to help it seems.

So here goes, I hope it helps you to help us out. For this house we pay $2,750 per month. People in Ohio, Tennessee, Texas, will think we are stark raving mad, but here is the catch: we live in Orange County, CA and the real estate market here has gone from red-hot 2 years ago to WHITE-WHITE-HOT now. You must believe that this rent on this house is absolutely THE going rate for this size and type house in this market. The MEDIAN price of a home in O.C. just hit $595K. This house sold for $545 when we moved in. It is now worth $850K. It's a good house in a decent neighborhood, but no great shakes. It's the kind of house that would sell for $320K in Cincinatti. But in Cincy you get a half-acre lot...this sits on a lot that is 78 X 52. I relate all this so that people who don't live here can try to understand the INSANITY that California is in general and the Orange County market in particular. But just know that anyone who works/lives here does know the market pressures and prices...and the trustee would know.

2 BR apartments, 900-1100 feet here go for $1400-$1800 or so. 3 BR apts, 1200-1500 go for $1600-$2000 or so. They are all (besides crack-town units) run by big mgmt companies, and we can NOT get in. Individual houses (decent place, decent neighborhoods) in the 1500-1800 feet range are in the $2000-$2400 price range. We COULD be relatively comfortable in any of these kinds of places...just can't qualify. Could we EVENTUALLY find someone who would take a chance? I guess...but I've been trying and no luck.

My wife works, gross pay is $75K per year, take home $4900. Again, I know that other parts of the country will see that as a really good salary, but out here, it is the salary that any working stiff will have.....you have to have or you can't eat. I have been unemployed for 3 years-have no prospects (I can detail that in another post if it has bearing on things). My health insurance is $387/month, we have a total of $200 a month in installments to the IRS (for 18 months), no car payments (an '89 beater and a '99 solid ride), no retirement accounts or savings accounts of any kind. In short, we ain't got much at all.

I've used the calculators to add up expenses, and when you add all this stuff up, we range from "right at" her take home pay to being short $150-200 (depends on whether a cell phone is allowed or high-speed internet access is allowed, etc.). <big breath>...Soooooo, it seems to me that if the trustee doesn't complain about the rent we pay, then we stand a good chance at Chapter 7. IF he/she disallowed the size of our rent, it would seem we have NO shot at Chapter 7.

So that's the story. Now you see why I didn't put all this is one gigantic post to start off with ;) I thank you and anyone else who chimes in for taking the time read and consider this situation. I am looking forward to you opinion(s).

[HHM]

Do you work, or have any income? What do you do? You only mention your wifes income of $4900 net per month.

Given that its orange county, I doubt you will have to much trouble with a chapter 7 if your wife's income is the only income.

If you are fairly close on your budget, meaning you expenses barely exceed your income, I doubt you will have much trouble, but if you show a significant shortfall, the trustee may balk.

However, attorney's in the area would know better what the trustee accepts.

[Lightning]

I can't believe someone could be unemployed for 3 years. I just don't see how that's possible.

[HHM]

I can't believe someone could be unemployed for 3 years. I just don't see how that's possible.

Ditto that, no offense, I would think at some point you just take any job you can get until something in your particular field comes along. (unless you were in school or retraining). I also have a hard time swallowin the statement "and with no prospects". Honestly, I have seen Ph.D's with 20 years of college teaching experience working in customer service call centers for $8.00 per hour because they could't get a job teaching when they moved to a new city.

I think you have some deeper issues to resolve that have little to do with bankruptcy.

[Somehow]

Glad both of you brought that up. You would think that any breathing soul could get an $8/hour job. But I am 51, and I can tell you it is NOT the case. If you are hiring for that job, who are you going to take? Me, an overweight, graying, 51 year old guy or ANY of the HUNDREDS of those in O.C., aged 20-35 who will work their butts to the nubile bone for that? Yep, I thought it was insane too, when I began this trip, but that is the way it IS in this place. For background----when I lost my job in the Bay Area in 2000, I was mking $85K per year. Moved down here (wife's family reasons), and I THOUGHT TOO, NO PROBLEM. Well, a little time elapsed, so I started to have a hole in my resume that was getting bigger by the month. Then began losing track of contacts (read, references)...then started going downhill into a depression (not debilitating, but enough to make it seem hopeless). Fast forward 2 years, and it was then exponentially worse......with no one around to say what I wonderful "catch" I would be, even if you overlook the gaping hole in my employment record.

So, TODAY, even though I am emotionally wrecked, it doesn't make any difference: I cannnot get the $8 an hour job because there are SO many 25 year old kids who are given preference (if you don't think the age makes a BIGGGGGGG difference, then you are in a place more delusional than I am). And I cannot get the kind of job I once had, because that requires a SOLID track history, with credentials, referrals, etc. I have tried the Targets, Home Depots, civil service (for like the Post Office), etc. No bites. You can believe it or not. That's the way the world works in my situation. You will be there one day too, if you don't maintain an uninterrupted track history. But, unless I'm mistaken, I thought that was the ORIGIANL basis for a Chapter 7: You messed up beyond belief (my circumstance), or things beyond your control ($200K in uninsured medical expenses----but then is that REALLY beyond one's control? Nope, they just decided to put food on the table before paying $1,000 per month for less than nominal insurance).

So, the fact that you brought up this "concern", "doubt", or "suspicion" leads me to the FINAL question. If even the people on THIS board harbor such unnecessarily accuated suspicions (meaning, "if I don't think it would happen to ME-ME-ME, then it must be COMPLETELY unreasonable, and so, completely and reasonably objectionable" ), do you think that a trustee would make the same kind of judgements and dispute for the same reasons as YOU did?

Important information for me to know. Thanks!

[Lightning]

One way to fill those resume "holes" is to perform volunteer work, or study something, or other such non-paying positions.

You haven't gone into details regarding your debt, but if you haven't found a job doing anything in 3 years, it's not likely that your situation will improve. Since you can't collect social security for at least another 11 years, you really need to make some drastic changes in your lives. You might want to consider moving to a place with a much lower cost of living where you wife can get a job and support you. Filing for bankruptcy now if you can't live on what your wife makes isn't really going to help.

[Somehow]

My Friend Lightning---

I'm not looking for your psych-look at my life. I'm not looking for your opinion of my life. I'm not looking for your take on how I should have done things differently 10 years ago. I'm not looking for your "should-a-could-a" retro on what we might-have-could-have-done--. Do you get it?

I ONLY want to know if YOU have any pertinent info on MY situations AS IT IS. I did NOT ask for "What do you guys think about my life". I only asked for what your opinion on the LEGALITIES of my situation is. If you are pissed that I made $85K a few years ago and YOU didn't----I don't care. If you are pissed that my wife makes $75K now and yours doesn't, I don't care. I was asking for ONE thing. Is there anyone there who has any insigeht into how a trustee would see this situation??

Outside of that, I am NOT interested in your subjective evaluation of my life or my choices, or WHY I am here. Do you understand yet? If you do not have anything to offer, other than your own pissy-ass attitude about how it compares to your own life---I DO NOT care. I am only interested in the opionions of those who have LEGALLY relative comments. THEY are important. What YOU, Lightning, think about MY situation and WHY I am here means nothing. So, please, shut down, and just watch. Let others comment on the MERITS of my situation, and just move on to another topic where your nagging-sniping-*****ing is appreciated and welcome. I do not perceive that it is so in this thread (so far).

[Somehow]

One way to fill those resume "holes" is to perform volunteer work, or study something, or other such non-paying positions.
You might want to consider moving to a place with a much lower cost of living where you wife can get a job and support you. Filing for bankruptcy now if you can't live on what your wife makes isn't really going to help.

Yeah, I'll get right on that, so that I can serve my fellow man. After all, NON-PAYING positions will REALLY REALLY REALLY make my situation Sooooooo much better!!!!!! While I'm at it, I'll make sure that THE CHILDREN are all taken care of, and, of course, I'll set the gun laws, abortion-rights, free-speech, re-distribution of wealth, save-the-earth-don't ever-hurt-anyone's-feelings-on-and-on-ad-infinitum things so that it is to YOUR satisfaction, as well


Now, that I think about it, Light' ol' pal, I think that we will, indeed, uproot our entire lives for the last 21 years, from family and friends, move to...o, let's say, Wyoming, where, my wife has NOOOOOOOO chance of work, other than, minimum wage, and me too, so that we can just die of.....what???

Just why the hell are YOU here on this board? Are you a "Plant"? A troll? If you are, then I'd like to know if others have perceived this in your posts. If that is NOT the case, then I would STILL like to hear from others who are familiar with "Lightning". If this is the kind of responses this board respects, then I would like to know so that I can move on to other places, and not waste the time of the board members or ME.

[Minnymouth]

FIRST - YOU CAN'T HELP SOMEBODY THAT WON'T HELP THERE SELF!

SECOND - YOU MIGHT HAVE A BANKRUPTCY PROBLEM - BUT YOU ALSO HAVE "ATTITUDE" PROBLEMS.

Sounds like your wife has herself a "REAL KEEPER"......
COURSE THAT'S ONLY MY OPINION.

MINNY

"My opinion is based on EXPERIENCE ONLY!!"

[Tatetytiffany]

Minnymouth should be banned from this board. Most of her info is iffy at best and she sounds like a gossipy old women. :p

[Minnymouth]

Calm Down - Folks

We have all claimed BK or going to claim BK or in the middle of BK!!!!

Bk is stressfull most of the time.

FOR TATETYTIFFANY - Your opinion of me doesn't interest this Forum in the slighest.... me neither!! :p

FOR SOMEHOW
We all can sympathize with the postion your in!!! Many of us have been there also!! Many of us have "lost it all" in the process and started over because we had too.....not by choice.

Yes, the Trustee will probably question why you haven't worked in 3 years....and he may question your "lifestyle" also.... I heard a Trustee tell a couple "you want to live like the Jones - but the Smiths is the best you can do...that's why your in this mess, he told them.

If we can answers questions for you, many of us will offer suggestions, but we are NOT HERE to judge anyone...
cause I for sure, HAVE NEVER WALKED IN YOUR SHOES!!

But don't use AGE as an excuse.....You can always find a job, may not be what you want to do, or pay what you want - but work is out there.

FOR LIGHTENING
Yes, I agree - 3 years is a long time hunting a job!!! Even a low paying job is better than nothing....
Somehow may "have to change" his style of living to survive - many of us have....
And volunteering - never "hurt" anyone....it's good for the soul!

Bankruptcy is a hard thing to deal with - they demoralize you, embarrass you, take everything they can, and you have no control over anything and have to like it!!!

But when its all over, it's a Great Feeling to be FREE!!!
Life will go on - and a lot of times it's even BETTER......

Minny

[HHM]

Lets not get overly hostile. We try to sympathize with peoples circumstances and most people on this forum have been through a BK. But often times people need to hear things they don't like. I don't doubt things have been tough, but lightening does make a good point about having a Post BK Plan, unless you make some changes, you will end up in the same position. BK is a fresh start, but its only the first step.

[Lightning]

I did provide information relevant to your life. You didn't give any information about your debts. I'm just suggesting that it may not be a good idea to file bankruptcy now if you're going to continue to incur debts as the result of your unemployment.

I don't care how much money you or your wife make. Obviously whatever she makes can't support you or you wouldn't be filing for bankruptcy. It's either not enough or you spend too much. It's really that simple. Some people actually live on half of what your wife makes while supporting two kids, and they don't file for bankruptcy.

It's not how much you earn that's important, it's how much you save.