$50,000 cash advance Dec 2008?

I'm trying to dig my way out. I took the cash advance in fear of all the cc companies lowering credit lines. i needed the capitol to float. if things don't work out is this fraud?

i'm trying to dig my way out. I took the cash advance in fear of all the cc companies lowering credit lines. I needed the capitol to float. If things don't work out is this fraud?


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Holy Shamoly :blink::blink: :blink: I didnt know you could even take a $50k cash advance!!

You are not filing bk anytime soon, especially not in the next year without a creditor and/or Trustee crying fraud. That was a very bad move on your part, Im sorry.


Note: Isnt this thread in the wrong sub-forum?

Holy Shamoly :blink::blink: :blink: I didnt know you could even take a $50k cash advance!!


Oh you can if the credit lines are large, I had 2 that were over 150k each.

It doesn't sound good, I took large sums off of business credit lines for my business 10,20,30k at a time when it was needed. I had actual bank accounts along with each credit line so whenever something major came up the credit line covered the checking account. It was however over time and was business, are you in business? If not and you just pulled 50k from a personal credit line they are going to come for it for sure. Do you have any of it left to put back?

Note: Isnt this thread in the wrong sub-forum?
Thanks for noting this. Thread moved.

I would say 4-6 months will clear you of any fraud.

I would say 4-6 months will clear you of any fraud. I don't know about that...$50K advance? I think the OP should seek an attorney's advice about that one! I would think that being such a large amount, it would be challenge by the creditor(s), but the more time that passes, the better.

1 year of minimum payments on all accounts before BK sounds good to me. More if possible.

Bottom line

You MUST make the minimum payment each month.

How much total unsecured debt do you have? I assume you are unemployed, how long have you been unemployed?

Bottom line - in this today's environment - 50k advance is NOT GOOD. BK trustees are getting much tougher than they were previously. And the problem with this is if it can be proved that you were insolvent when you took it out, a fraud case can be made. If you can wait a few years until filing, fine. If not, I might seriously consider giving back whatever is left.

Reading this almost made me drop my computer. I feel better about my stupidity now. :) LOL

I'm trying to dig my way out. I took the cash advance in fear of all the cc companies lowering credit lines. i needed the capitol to float. if things don't work out is this fraud?

From your description there was no intent to defraud.

Furthermore a lot of people are aware that lately credit is working on the use-it-or-lose it principal.

I don't see any problem. As long as you don't file within 90 days.
And as long as you aren't hiding the money from the court. If it gets spent so be it.

Usually you need to wait 6 months before you file, more the better...

If you can, make some minimum payments. Also, you can get an attorney now, and most creditors will back off giving you at least 6 months to avoid any judgements. The key is time since the last purchase/advance. I was in the same position but only about a 1000.00 advance. I got the attorney on retainer and it allowed time to pass.

Tell your creditors, if you can't make the payments, that you are planning to file Chapter 7. They'll want your attorney's info and should back off. But they don't have to....

Or if you tell them you're going to file BK they might start sueing or a judgement sooner rather than later.

From your description there was no intent to defraud.

Furthermore a lot of people are aware that lately credit is working on the use-it-or-lose it principal.

I don't see any problem. As long as you don't file within 90 days.
And as long as you aren't hiding the money from the court. If it gets spent so be it.
Are you kiddin' me? 50K CASH advance, then BK, screams fraud from the highest mountain.

Or if you tell them you're going to file BK they might start sueing or a judgement sooner rather than later.I agree. Never talk to creditors. They will use everything against you. There is no point in speaking with them.

A $50k cash advance will be scrutinized extremely carefully and the more time and payments that you can pay toward it before your filing the better for you.

If you were unemployeed at the time of the cash advance - I think that it would be difficult to get around the fraud assumption.

I would wait at least ONE YEAR and make payments for as long as possible, JMO.

A $50k cash advance will be scrutinized extremely carefully and the more time and payments that you can pay toward it before your filing the better for you.

If you were unemployeed at the time of the cash advance - I think that it would be difficult to get around the fraud assumption.

I would wait at least ONE YEAR and make payments for as long as possible, JMO.

I aagree. Make minimum payments for a while.

I waited almost one year after using cards or taking any advances and I was asked pointedly if I made any payments to my creditors, even the minimum payments.

They also asked me if my payments covered my charges.

I agree that you can have an issue if you were unemployed, How were you going to repay it? That's what I would ask if I were a TT.

The use it or lose it mentality of banks now would not make me any more confortable, sorry. I would definitely consult an attorney just to start some planning though.

This is a tough one if you do not make any payments.

Let me rephrase. I don't think the 50k is a problem as long as you aren't stupid about it. Don't rush to the courthouse, be sure to make a few payments, etc.

as everyone has alreayd said, it's very very important to make payments on that cash advance. I don't think there's anyway you could get away with such a large cash advanced "just in case" they lower your credit limits; and then file for BK a short time later. I would say you need to put a solid year between yourself and that cash advance- with payments. You've put yourself in quite a pickle; sorry to say. Can you just repay it? Obviously the move wasn't thought through- but if you give them back the cash advance you could file sooner if needed. I don't see any way that even an attorney could get you out of this type of mess, without you putting some serious distance between it. good luck!

The problem from the trustee's perspective is that if you're truly broke and don't have the money, what are they really going to do? Broke is broke, fraud or no fraud. The only point to declaring fraud is to either (A) recover the money from some other party they can figure out you gave it to or else (B) deny you the exemptions and force you to repay out of any assets you might have protected.

I have been reading Pacer cases in my district and every one I have seen with a trustee objection has subsequently resulted in a confirmed plan (ch13) , with maybe a little bit higher payment or length of plan. The trusteeship is essentially a kinder, gentler collections business.

The problem from the trustee's perspective is that if you're truly broke and don't have the money, what are they really going to do? Broke is broke, fraud or no fraud. The only point to declaring fraud is to either (A) recover the money from some other party they can figure out you gave it to or else (B) deny you the exemptions and force you to repay out of any assets you might have protected.

I have been reading Pacer cases in my district and every one I have seen with a trustee objection has subsequently resulted in a confirmed plan (ch13) , with maybe a little bit higher payment or length of plan. The trusteeship is essentially a kinder, gentler collections business.

Oh, how can I read Pacer cases? What tab do I look I under?

Oh, how can I read Pacer cases? What tab do I look I under?

You have to open an account here:
http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/
Costs 8 cents a page, maximum charge is 30 pages/$2.40 per document (some ch13 petitions run about 50-60 pages)

Are you kiddin' me? 50K CASH advance, then BK, screams fraud from the highest mountain.

Definately agree. File bk anytime before probably 8-12 months, and you're going to have some bk/Trustee drama!!

Ouch - that's one mega cash advance.

You have to open an account here:
http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/
Costs 8 cents a page, maximum charge is 30 pages/$2.40 per document (some ch13 petitions run about 50-60 pages)

Thanks, I opened the account, did not know where to look though.

I'm trying to dig my way out. I took the cash advance in fear of all the cc companies lowering credit lines. i needed the capitol to float. if things don't work out is this fraud?



I read this yeaterday and are still figuring out if you are for real.


How is a 50k cash advance "digging out"? The "capitol to float", are you runnning a small business?

"If things don't work out is this fraud"? What things aren't going to work out? Are you asking because you are filing for bankruptcy?

If you mis represent yourself by lying about your income or anything else really or if you are borrowing money with no intentions of paying it back then yes that is fraud inside or outside of bankruptcy.

This is assuming you are the real thing.:unsure:

Thanks, I opened the account, did not know where to look though.

This page (http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/psco/cgi-bin/links.pl) has the links to allow you to select an individual court to search.

I usually put in a small date range and choose which chapter I want and then pull a docket report. Then you can see towns and counties and look for ones that might be of interest (similar incomes, assets, that kind of thing)

I read this yeaterday and are still figuring out if you are for real.


How is a 50k cash advance "digging out"? The "capitol to float", are you runnning a small business?

"If things don't work out is this fraud"? What things aren't going to work out? Are you asking because you are filing for bankruptcy?

If you mis represent yourself by lying about your income or anything else really or if you are borrowing money with no intentions of paying it back then yes that is fraud inside or outside of bankruptcy.

This is assuming you are the real thing.:unsure:

Uh, except, it isn't. Unless you sign it under penalty of perjury, right? People/companies who are insolvent borrow money all the time.
Take, for example, Citicorp. :-) Doesn't make it fraud, they're "hoping" for the best but the reality is they may indeed know they're
doomed.

Uh, except, it isn't. Unless you sign it under penalty of perjury, right? People/companies who are insolvent borrow money all the time.
Take, for example, Citicorp. :-) Doesn't make it fraud, they're "hoping" for the best but the reality is they may indeed know they're
doomed.


Doesn't matter if it's under oath. You can commit fraud by mis representing yourself. B. Madoff probably never commited perjury but he commited the mother of all frauds.

The citicorp, banking situation is a different story. While I don't like it one bit their situation is simply the government propping them up to avoid a major confidence crisis. Technically most of the large banks are already bankrupt and without the bailouts the stock, bond and money market indexes would probably be close to zero by now.

This page (http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/psco/cgi-bin/links.pl) has the links to allow you to select an individual court to search.

I usually put in a small date range and choose which chapter I want and then pull a docket report. Then you can see towns and counties and look for ones that might be of interest (similar incomes, assets, that kind of thing)

Thank you so much. I was wracking my brain trying to figure it out.

Now of course I have discovered a new form of nuerosis for the next 55 or so days.

I read this yeaterday and are still figuring out if you are for real.


How is a 50k cash advance "digging out"? The "capitol to float", are you runnning a small business?

"If things don't work out is this fraud"? What things aren't going to work out? Are you asking because you are filing for bankruptcy?

If you mis represent yourself by lying about your income or anything else really or if you are borrowing money with no intentions of paying it back then yes that is fraud inside or outside of bankruptcy.

This is assuming you are the real thing.:unsure:


This post is so interesting, as it makes me realize that different amounts of money mean different things to different folks. Is 50K all that? I didn't blink at it, but reading some of these reactions made me see that it's huge to some. Maybe it's cause my hubs deals in those numbers all the time, and I can easily see a corp needing 50k. Most corps, really.

Doesn't matter if it's under oath. You can commit fraud by mis representing yourself. B. Madoff probably never commited perjury but he commited the mother of all frauds.


Yes and he was licensed in a regulated business of managing other peoples money. Not the same as you or me running up our Kohl's card.

I believe the judge calls it preponderance of the evidence.

I believe the judge calls it preponderance of the evidence.

That's if it ever gets to a judge. Bernie may not live that long in GenPop.

This post is so interesting, as it makes me realize that different amounts of money mean different things to different folks. Is 50K all that? I didn't blink at it, but reading some of these reactions made me see that it's huge to some. Maybe it's cause my hubs deals in those numbers all the time, and I can easily see a corp needing 50k. Most corps, really.



I agree I didn't think too much of it either, our business was dealing with these and higher amounts.

This post is so interesting, as it makes me realize that different amounts of money mean different things to different folks. Is 50K all that? I didn't blink at it, but reading some of these reactions made me see that it's huge to some. Maybe it's cause my hubs deals in those numbers all the time, and I can easily see a corp needing 50k. Most corps, really.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I've had the card for 10 years, maxing to $100k tons of times, even as recent as early 2008 and paid it back. I'm using the money to fix up a house, and i need operating capitol til it sells. It's a long story, but $50k is only a small dent in my debt. I owe $500k on a unsecured LOC for my old business that is closed now. I've been making the minimum payments on that (about $3700 per mo) for the last 3 years out of pocket. can't do that anymore. On a townhome project I have 6 million outstanding thats going to end up in forclosure. By the time they short sale it, the differerence will be around 2 million? Plus 3 Amex cards and a Discover. I actually lost my $900k investment in the townhome project, plus another $1.8 that i was projected to make. It seemed like a good plan at the time. My 2008 return is going to show about a one million dollar loss. Thanks again for everyone's help

I read this yeaterday and are still figuring out if you are for real.


How is a 50k cash advance "digging out"? The "capitol to float", are you runnning a small business?

"If things don't work out is this fraud"? What things aren't going to work out? Are you asking because you are filing for bankruptcy?

If you mis represent yourself by lying about your income or anything else really or if you are borrowing money with no intentions of paying it back then yes that is fraud inside or outside of bankruptcy.

This is assuming you are the real thing.:unsure:
The card has a $100k limit that I have maxed out may times in the ten years that i have had the card. I maxed it as recently as early 2008 to buy an investment house. I'm using some of the cash advance for improvements and holding costs, and I have every intension of paying it back as soon as the house sells. If it sells is the big question?

Usually you need to wait 6 months before you file, more the better...

If you can, make some minimum payments. Also, you can get an attorney now, and most creditors will back off giving you at least 6 months to avoid any judgements. The key is time since the last purchase/advance. I was in the same position but only about a 1000.00 advance. I got the attorney on retainer and it allowed time to pass.

Tell your creditors, if you can't make the payments, that you are planning to file Chapter 7. They'll want your attorney's info and should back off. But they don't have to....
I'm a little confused on suits and judgements. Is it better to sued sooner than later. I plan on trying to work a few things out, so i'll have over 12 months if i have to file. If I have a law suit pending, can it be discharged, or do i have to wait til its over and they have a judgement against me? thanks again

Your lawsuit can be discharged in the BK - the petition has a section for you to list all lawsuits. You do not have to wait until you have a judgment - it is probably better if you do not have a judgment.

However, the

See this:

The Bankruptcy Code gives individuals a powerful tool for a fresh start: the power to eliminate judgment liens on assets otherwise exempt. So, where in most cases bankruptcy deals with the assets and debts that the individual has on the date they file bankruptcy, the power to avoid liens allows the debtor to turn the clock back to a time before the lien attached.

These are the ground rules:

The lien must be a judicial lien. The debtor can’t avoid a lien they granted voluntarily or a tax lien that arises by operation of law (a statutory lien).
The lien must impair an exemption in the asset that the debtor would otherwise enjoy.
The debtor must file a motion with the bankruptcy court asking that the lien be avoided.

There is more good news: if the debtor neglects to move to avoid an impairing lien during the case, the case can be reopened later on to avoid the lien. The analysis of whether the lien interferes with an exemption is made based on the value of the asset impressed with the lien at the time the case was filed. If the asset has increased in value, the lien creditor does not get the benefit of the appreciation.

http://www.¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿/2007/05/30/power-to-avoid-judgment-liens/

thanks again for your help

I am sort of in the same boat, took a huge loss and I am now trying to climb back up. I hav about 550k in unsecured. I used to pay the 4k per month out of pocket as well but I can't do it now. Good Luck

Here's what I'm thinkin, The BK courts are going to be so overwhelmed, if they're not already, they just wont have the man power. I made some business decisions with the best info I had a the time. Now being a RE Investor is a big joke, but it's the best plan I have for climbing back. They cant fault me for a business plan gone wrong. I certainly wont be the only idiot in BK court who lost millions investing in RE! Hopefully I wont have to file, but it's a long shot.

I'm trying to dig my way out. I took the cash advance in fear of all the cc companies lowering credit lines. i needed the capitol to float. if things don't work out is this fraud?

NO. People get confused about this all the time. You have a contract to pay back 50K to the people that loaned you the money. The simple fact that you did not fulfill your end of the deal does not make it fraud. Fraud happens when you borrowed the money and you had no intention of paying it back. Stuff like whether you were unemployed can be used as evidence to judge whether your statement that you intended to pay it back is believable. But legally fraud only happens when a judge or jury says it has happened. It is not a crime to be overly optimistic or to gamble wrong on the future.

Anyone in BK is going to look at the 50K number in context. But the context is not merely where you are now or where you were in the past. It's also where you had reason to think you would be in the future. Based on what you have reported here the idea that its fraud is laughable.

Best news i had all day...thanks

Okay contrary to what our government is doing you cannot fix your economic situation by going into more debt. It never works, almost all of us here have learned that lesson. Today you did too, don't beat yourself up to much though as far to many of us have tried that path.

Don't file this year.

Make at least 3 months minimum payments on the 50k advance (more if you can 6 months is better).

Wait for at least 1 year to pass before filing bk.

Or if you tell them you're going to file BK they might start sueing or a judgement sooner rather than later.

OK... But it is a basic cost analysis issue a creditor considers. A debtor is an only a ratio. They do the ratio, then a 5 min nationwide search, run the numbers, and get rollin. Obviously, every case has a number of variables and different issues. Upon their their analysis the decision is made by them. The they roll.

In 99 I got an attorney on a retainer, did as instructed, 2-3 month ignore, then answered the phone and gave out his info. They call, verify, and back off. But are not required. It costs them bucks to go after you. A legitimate BK probability changes the cost analysis and the ratio greatly. Do a little retainer and works fine. Mine took another 7 months, then served me.... then they were served....done!!

Every case is different, but don't lie, don't hide, time, time file!

Can you loan me about $1000 so I can pay my bk attorney?

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I've had the card for 10 years, maxing to $100k tons of times, even as recent as early 2008 and paid it back. I'm using the money to fix up a house, and i need operating capitol til it sells. It's a long story, but $50k is only a small dent in my debt. I owe $500k on a unsecured LOC for my old business that is closed now. I've been making the minimum payments on that (about $3700 per mo) for the last 3 years out of pocket. can't do that anymore. On a townhome project I have 6 million outstanding thats going to end up in forclosure. By the time they short sale it, the differerence will be around 2 million? Plus 3 Amex cards and a Discover. I actually lost my $900k investment in the townhome project, plus another $1.8 that i was projected to make. It seemed like a good plan at the time. My 2008 return is going to show about a one million dollar loss. Thanks again for everyone's help

were you a real estate flipper? just a guess, with that bumber...

oh duh you said townhome/ Way to read, Cat.

You have to open an account here:
http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/
Costs 8 cents a page, maximum charge is 30 pages/$2.40 per document (some ch13 petitions run about 50-60 pages)

Thanks for the info!
I charged it of course!:cool:

Suits and liens are never good, but for most, not crim, student loans, etc, can be wiped out in a 7 and taken care of in a 13. If you time before u can file, due to a possible objection, stall them and or work out a petty pymt till u can file. Garnishments are embarrassing and can dent your paycheck badly depending on your state residence. Once
u are served working it out is pretty much ain't gonna work. They're gonna proceed as this point an attorney /asset recovery co is involved. But you can take care of this when you file. Get an attorney now. Start makin some pymts to him her, so when you gotta file you u paid the amount req to file.

Hi Cat, I made a small fortune when the cell phone boom hit in 99, 2000. Had a chain of retail stores when the carriers needed us to expand their customer base at a rate faster than they had the man power to do. They were throwing money at us to open stores and offered huge incentives to increase our volume. It was great while they needed us, but soon enough they were opening corporate stores all over the place, needing us less and less to handle the customer base. I did great, not complaining at all, but i could see where it was going. An RE Developer, a good friend of mine was building as fast as he could, making tons of money, but to build even faster he offered me in as an investor to build 52 townhomes for an initial investment og $900k, and a projected profit of $3.6 that we would split 50/50, in effect tripling my money in about 24 months. If i got in a about a year earlier, it probably would have gone a lot better. So really, i was counting on $2.7 for about 3 years that never came.

So i've been grinding tyrying to get into the flippping game. Not really knowing the game, let's just say, i'm paying of lessons!

I've been living off IRS refund checks, since the cell phone business started losing money in 2005. I'm waiting on $207k now. The problem is that when this big project hits the fan, the $207k isnt gonna make a dent in the 3 or 4 million the bank is gonna come after us for? Not sure what to do til that happens?