So are Pre-paid Visas not considered bank accounts?

I have been reading a lot over the past few weeks. I have read that if you think a judgment will be placed against you or your account will be frozen to move to prepaid debit and cash.

So is this not considered a bank account? (You know like when they ask about your bank account on a summons, etc.)

TIA!

HHHMMMMMMMM prepaid is money, it is an account, but what will it purchase? That is the question. Keep your records and if asked, carrying a card is safer than carrying cash. Cash is the best though but of course it isn't always convenient. 'Hub

I guess maybe it's not considered a personal bank account?

Read the 'terms and conditions" of most of these cards. They explicitly state, "This is not a bank account." As a least sophisticated consumer, why would you consider the pre-paid card to be a bank account when the terms and conditions state that the card is not a bank account? I'm quite curious about this also. I envision someone being asked in a debot exam to turn over all infomration related to bank accounts. Would you offer up your pre-paid account when by using it you agreed that the card does not constitute a bank account? While it is clear these cards are tied to some bank somewhere, you yourself never signed an agreemnt with the bank that supports the card.

Read the 'terms and conditions" of most of these cards. They explicitly state, "This is not a bank account." As a least sophisticated consumer, why would you consider the pre-paid card to be a bank account when the terms and conditions state that the card is not a bank account? I'm quite curious about this also. I envision someone being asked in a debot exam to turn over all infomration related to bank accounts. Would you offer up your pre-paid account when by using it you agreed that the card does not constitute a bank account? While it is clear these cards are tied to some bank somewhere, you yourself never signed an agreemnt with the bank that supports the card.

That makes for a very interesting point! It seems that these prepaids are supposed to be used like cash (however safer due it being on a card.)

I guess if they ask about bank account..according to their Terms and Conditions you don't!

I am curious as to what others think?

The card is issued by a bank, your deposit is held in an account for you to draw against. I'd say it's an account at a bank. It's not a checking account, nor a savings account (unless they pay interest of course).

Here is pretty much what all of them state:

"The Card: The Card is a prepaid card. The Card allows you to access funds you place on the Card. The Card does not constitute a checking, savings or other bank account and is not connected in any way to any other account you may have. The Card is not a credit card. You will not receive any interest on your funds on the Card."

It seems pretty clear to any least-sophisticated consumer that the card is a card. It clearly states it is not a checking, savings or other bank account. In fact once you apply for any of these cards, you are acknowledging you have read and agree to the terms and conditions.

So, should the question come up, "Do you have a checking, savings, or bank account, one could answer no." I mean you already agreed that what you might have does not constitute any of the three. Since the more-sophisticated consumer might think the card is somehow related to a bank account, he/she already agreed that they understand it does not. It is strange, I know. I wonder why most of the prepaid cards all have this disclaimer.

There are a lot of other questions that come to mind. One could be asked to produce all statements over the past 6 months. Many folks opt not to get statments from their prepaid accounts (usually costs a lot more for paper statements, nor do they create a login to the card's website account info. You can't produce a statement you don't have.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. How does one answer a query related to documents for prepaid accounts? The disclaimer to the consumer is not there without reason. Perhaps, the bank holding the funds that the card accesses does not want any contractual tie to the consumer. There are millions of people who don't have or can't get regular checking accounts due to all kinds of reasons (CHEXSYSTEMS bein one of them.) Other folks prefer to simply live an alternative lifestyle.

I wonder why most of the prepaid cards all have this disclaimer.


The pre-paid card providers don't want to be a bank. If they're a bank, then they're subject to all kinds of regulations that they don't want to deal with. PayPal is very similar - if you have a PayPal account you can put money into it, you can withdraw money from it, you can put it into a money market account and get interest on it, you can get a debit card to make purchases or withdraw from an ATM. Very similar to a bank, but not a bank, which means they have a lot more freedom to do what they want with your money.

My lawyer has advised me that trustees in this area are very quick to ask if you have a PayPal account and will want to know about it. I'm sure it won't be long before they start asking about pre-paid debit cards as well.

It makes total sense that a trustee should ask about prepaid debit cards. On the other hand, I made a few calls to some banks (some major and some minor) and discovered there are now regional and national banks around that "sell" their own prepaid debit (some are called "gift" cards, LOL) cards. I found a couple that are reloadable to $2500.00 simply by swiping the card. Your NAME isn't even associated with them. In addition, it appears the "holder" is insured under the FDIC. Hell, you could buy 100 of them and no one would ever know the difference. You don't fill out any paperwork, nothing, nada, zip. You purchase the card for a one time payment ($5 - $9) and then can reload it anywhere on the visa interlink system. Since they are in the VISA/MC system, one can use them for paying bills just as one would use any debit/credit card. How on earth would anyone ever discover if one had one of these cards?

I'm not advocating fraud or dishonesty. Don't get me wrong. But, I do believe these financial devices are available because there is a need. $2500 seems like an awful lot to put on a "gift" card that is not traceable and no consumer name attached to it. So much for the Patriot Act. I would prefer to believe that the government is more than willing to turn it's eyes away from this market, as the unused portion probably plays a role in the daily movement of commercial paper, end-of-day financial assets, etc.

I think it is only a matter of time before one can link their prepaid cards to their optional retirement accounts such as 403(B), 457, 401(k), etc. Why not? The flow of money is important. The big difference is that a consumer becomes their own lender. You borrow money from yourself.

Treehugger---I sent you a pm!

Looking at it from a different angle, when you buy a gift card, you're becoming someone's unsecured creditor.

And we all know what a wonderful experience that can be for the creditor. :-)

It seems to me it is an "account", just not a "bank account".

It seems to me it is an "account", just not a "bank account".

And absent indications otherwise, an account is a contract is an unsecured debt.

As a salesperson I've studied body language quite a bit. I've learned to read when someone is answering in a deceptive or dishonest manner. I suspect the trustees are also pretty good at reading body language. I would not want to have money on a prepaid debit card that was not declared.

ok- am curious about this as well.

Question- How would a trustee ever know that you had a pre-paid account? Is there a way for them to track this down easily? I pulled my credit reports- mine doesn't show up anywhere (as it shouldn't). So how would the BK Trustee even know about it, let alone prove you had it?

Where does the money come from that goes to the prepaid account?
It comes from your paycheck, credit card, bank account, debit card. It comes from a source that would otherwise end up in your bank account, an asset you purchased, or cash on hand (which is asked by trustees)
How is this any different than just taking cash from one of these sources and just keeping it at home?
I've been shot down a few times for advocating fraudulent ideas, so right now I'm shooting back.

Well, if there is money available on it when you file or when you meet the trustee, then it represents a cash asset. I'm not an attorney, but if you withdraw all the money from the card before filing and have nothing available on it at the time the question is asked, it would seem to me the answer is, "No, I have stated all my assets as indicated on the appropriate forms." I don't see anything fraudulent about this. Now, if you had a few hundred dollars in money orders or a few hundred dollars available on a prepaid card (assets,) then you would need to include such assets if the question were asked. Other than that, the value of a pre-paid debit card appears only to be the amount you have available on it. There are banks that are connected to yoru prepaid debit card, but just ry calling th ebank and see if they even know your name, or have your social security number. My guess is they do not. I think they only have your 16 digit account number tied to some large account that the issuer (Netspend, accontnow, western union, etc) keeps on deposit to cover all the cards they serve. How do I know this? Well, I don't know with certainty, but I do know that the bank that holds funds related to one of my prepaid debit cards is not even licensed to conduct financial business in my state. The card issuer might be licensed (I doubt it,) but the bank is not.

I would also guess that prepaid debit cards are tied to the entire issue of "commercial paper." I won't go into any details about how commercial paper works, but it is bought, traded, and sold on a daily basis. Without the value of commercial paper, our daily financial ability to do business as a region/country would collapse. While it may seem strange, I think a lot of money is made on the daily amounts of unspent balances on pre-paid debit, gift, etc, cards. I think banks love to have the connection to cash assets that pre-paid cards represent. Again, I'm not sure how all this works in reality, but there is some reason that the issuers go out of their way to state the card does not represent a bank account.

So my opinion is that you don't want to have money on your prepaid card when you file, or perhaps the day of your 341 meeting, anymore than you don't want to have a stack of savings bonds, money orders, etc in your pocket.

If you have a direct deposit tied to your prepaid card, then clearly this is traceable through a subpoena served on your employer. Your employer account would show a routing number and account number. These numbers for prepaid accounts are only intended to serve as the "deposit accounts," but under scrutiny I suspect someone could find the account. This takes time and money.

I wish I had an answer for you, but as mentioned, I have prepaid accounts that imply a connection to a regional bank, but I suspect that any of these banks know who "treehugger" is. The banks probably don't even have a address or SSN for Treehugger." They don't care to know th edetails. They do care about the overall daily balance that the entire package from the card issuer represents at the end of a bussiness day.

As always, just guessing, and if I were before a trustee with a zero balance on a prepaid debit card, I would not inlcude this as an asset, or even cash on hand.

I am with BigBoy on this. I do not have any pre-paids, as I had not really thought much about such things, but now I am going to get some.

To me it makes total sense.

The old adage "knowledge is power" applies both ways and if you can keep creditors from knowing what form your funds are in and how you use them, I think that is an excellent idea. I plan to apply this idea before, during, and after BK. The one caveat I will use is that in the runup to and process of BK the balances will be so low that they are exempt or totally empty, just to avoid any legal or ethical quandaries.

BigBoy-
That's EXACTLY what I've been doing. I use my card for things I don't want documented- sounds bad, but it's really not. Not buying/selling anything illegal- but it also helps with normalizing spending. When we go over limit at our bank, the bank grants the charge- but then hits us with a $35 overdraft fee. I've paid over $700 to BoA once because THEY reversed and held a deposit I made earlier (thus, my $0.59 taco from Taco Bell cost me $35.59, as well as 19 other charges immediately after). On a pre-paid- if there's no more money in the account, no charges go through, and no more overdraft fees. Works great with a wife... ;)

So, essentially, don't lie to the BK Court about it- but if you have nothing on it when you file, there's nothing to lie about anyways. However, there's no way they can easily trace it to you, either. I DO remember giving GreenDot my SSN when I signed up tho...

Maybe I should go get a different kind of card. Hmmm...
Thanks!

Never mind lol.

I use the WalMary Money Card, only because WalMart is near me. But in the first card I got I filed it out completely and accurately. After some thought i bought another one for $3 and then Used my Initials on the application so it looks like this J R Smith I then used a birthday I can remember 01/01/year I was born, they ask for a SS number unless you are from outside the country, I checked that box. It then asks for a drivers license number but it accepts no numbers or symbols like * so I just put JRSMITH ...LOL... and my state. I then used my real PO Box number and a new yahoo email address that is only for this card. So its still me, my initials at my real PO Box, so I messed up on the birthday and got confused over the SS part <shrug>.... I was really expecting a letter saying they could not process the application, but a week later my new card showed.

My point is I don't want to go do something that is so blatantly wrong such as saying I am JR Smith that fraud could be implied. But then I was on medication when I filled it out and .....oops I make a mistake and didn't even realize it, remember intent is the key to all fraud... But on the other hand if i did say I was J R Smith and lied about all the other info, unless I did do something else illegal no one would know and no hard would come, same as the prepaid cell phone I bought, it is under another name is it wrong or illegal, I don't know, I don't really care so long as I don't use my phone for anything illegal. I only did that with my phone since I don't want anyone but those I give the number to have that number. Its not as if I am committing ID theft.

Okay, I think I understand the usage of these Cards. Not advantagous if you intend to file BK in the next 90 - 120 days. The Cards come in handy, when one is attempting to lower their Cash Assets, as Credit Card Cos., CA & JDB's may attempt an 'Asset Report'. Other Factor is your average checking account is Low - Another Plus for the Debitor. And transactions on these Prepaid Credit Cards are NOT Traceable. Right????

BigBoy2U -

Just don't forget to log into Yahoo every 30 days or your account will be closed.

Also, I guess if one should ask to see your DL#, because the card holds only your initials; whereas the DL# lists your full name, you've never had a problem using the card as a charge let's just say at Wallyworld?

Luci

PS BigBoy, fully understand 'under medication' as I take Morphine 3 X a Day along with various other meds. In fact, I'm worried about our 341 hearing. Long drive to Courthouse. Parking Garage is a block away & 4-6 stories high. I will be using my scooter that day as I'm unable to walk that far.

What worries me, is I'm afraid to take my morphine in the morning as BK cases are scheduled from 9 am - Noon. So, if I don't take it, Severe pain sets in and I sweat, get edgy & my hands shake & blood Pressure spikes. I left Mon. at 9 am to go visit my father. Was there for 2 hrs & PM appt. was at 1pm. No meds & blood pressure was 162/120 because of severe nerve pain.

If I take it and Trustee ask a different question than the cheat sheets I've seen, thus far, I'm afraid I will not understand the question & answer could be slurred. Don't tell me to let Dh do the talking as this BK is Greek to him. He is an OTR Truck Driver & is only home 1 day a week.

Sheesh, I made one little post about keeping your money at home in a safe instead letting a creditor garnish your savings account and was slammed by a moderator. This whole thread is just nothing but promotion of fraud, yet I have not seen one post by a moderator.

Sheesh, I made one little post about keeping your money at home in a safe instead letting a creditor garnish your savings account and was slammed by a moderator. This whole thread is just nothing but promotion of fraud, yet I have not seen one post by a moderator.


Optimistic:

I remember that post and didn't agree with the Mod. on that post or this Thread. I don't think this thread is about Fraud. It's just like planning a BK where your wages for the previous 6 mths. are below your State's Median Income.

This thread is planning so a Creditor is unable to grab your Cash Assets whenever one wants to do so. That's called Planning.

I don't think it will be too long before these PrePaid CCs will be easily traceable which I will not Like. But let's face it, when you try to circumvent the Laws, some Dang Senator or Congressmen will get a Bill passed to make sure pre-paid Visas are traceable or something to that effect.

I've read where some of these Pre-Paid Visa are appearing on Credit Reports. Thus it depends on the Issuer of the Visa to report to the Credit Bureaus.

Luci

Bigboy, I respectfully disagree with you, while your specific posts do not advocate the idea, and your opinion is not advocating such things, others in the thread have done just that, which is what I stated in my post, this has nothing to do with your posts. So lets agree that I misstated my sentence, and should have said, "parts of this thread are just promoting fraud". Happy now?

Anyone with a shred of intelligence can put 2 and 2 together on this one, you have got to be kidding me bro. When I made a post about storing savings at home in a safe, I never even used the word "court" or "trustee", it was a post in the collection forum concerning garnishments. While for whatever reason people choose to use these prepaid cards, you can bet that people will get or give ideas, just like the three posts explicitly state below. I dont know how much more specific you need me to be, just read through all the posts on the thread, some dont imply anything, others absolutely do.



I guess if they (court) ask about bank account..according to their Terms and Conditions you don't!



So how would the BK Trustee even know about it, let alone prove you had it?

I found a couple that are reloadable to $2500.00 simply by swiping the card. Your NAME isn't even associated with them. In addition, it appears the "holder" is insured under the FDIC. Hell, you could buy 100 of them and no one would ever know the difference. You don't fill out any paperwork, nothing, nada, zip. You purchase the card for a one time payment ($5 - $9) and then can reload it anywhere on the visa interlink system. Since they are in the VISA/MC system, one can use them for paying bills just as one would use any debit/credit card. How on earth would anyone ever discover if one had one of these cards?

I'm not advocating fraud or dishonesty. Don't get me wrong. But, I do believe these financial devices are available because there is a need. $2500 seems like an awful lot to put on a "gift" card that is not traceable and no consumer name attached to it.


As you can see, people are implying about utilizing the cards to store cash on, and implying that the trustee would not ever even know about it, which is totally a different ball of wax. The last time I checked, thats called fraud. Do you have some other name for it BigBoy? Of course that is a rhetorical question. I do see the prepaid cards as a means of not having your bank account garnished by some slum creditor, but then posts quickly turned from that, to talking about how the "trustee would never even know about it", etc.etc.

Case closed.


BTW.

Treehugger, sorry I dont mean to use your post as an example, I know you mean well and dont advocate fraud, but Bigboy wanted some examples or specifics of how people could interpret the posts.

BigBoy-
That's a great point. I agree, lying under oath is not a good idea. Not sure how they would ever KNOW about it- but, morally, it's not a good idea anyways.

Creditor exams- are those rare? Is that only when a creditor wants to challenge your financial affairs, as they think you may have more than you state in your case?

Lastly- does it ever happen to where the court can get a Warrant to search your property to document all the items you may have in your home? Does that ever happen?

I was given two pre-paid visa cards as gifts last year, both times I had to activate them. To activate them online required giving my name.

I listed my pre-paid re loadable Visa as "cash on hand" of course I only had $3 on it. I also printed out the statement from the card and submitted it with the other documents to the Trustee. I think they are treated as cash rather than bank accounts.

Here is pretty much what all of them state:

"The Card: The Card is a prepaid card. The Card allows you to access funds you place on the Card. The Card does not constitute a checking, savings or other bank account and is not connected in any way to any other account you may have. The Card is not a credit card. You will not receive any interest on your funds on the Card."

It seems pretty clear to any least-sophisticated consumer that the card is a card. It clearly states it is not a checking, savings or other bank account. In fact once you apply for any of these cards, you are acknowledging you have read and agree to the terms and conditions.

So, should the question come up, "Do you have a checking, savings, or bank account, one could answer no." I mean you already agreed that what you might have does not constitute any of the three. Since the more-sophisticated consumer might think the card is somehow related to a bank account, he/she already agreed that they understand it does not. It is strange, I know. I wonder why most of the prepaid cards all have this disclaimer.

There are a lot of other questions that come to mind. One could be asked to produce all statements over the past 6 months. Many folks opt not to get statments from their prepaid accounts (usually costs a lot more for paper statements, nor do they create a login to the card's website account info. You can't produce a statement you don't have.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. How does one answer a query related to documents for prepaid accounts? The disclaimer to the consumer is not there without reason. Perhaps, the bank holding the funds that the card accesses does not want any contractual tie to the consumer. There are millions of people who don't have or can't get regular checking accounts due to all kinds of reasons (CHEXSYSTEMS bein one of them.) Other folks prefer to simply live an alternative lifestyle.

Debtor exams are extremely rare, but if I was ever called in for one, there is no way in He** that I would ever give them my pre-paid VISA card information, and you have to remember that the creditors only know what you tell them for the most part. If you don't tell them about it, they will probably never find out about it.


From the personal experience of a friend who had a judgment against her, and who had a pre-paid VISA card with a certain bank, even after the creditor sent out garnishment orders to all of the local banks in her area (including the bank that offered the pre-paid VISA card to her), her money was safe and still is safe. That bank did not seize the money in her pre-paid card. She is still using that same card and it still works. That bank obviously did not see that card as an account subject to garnishment court order papers served by a Maricopa County sheriff's constable.

So, yes, I think they are safe from creditors. But I sure wouldn't tell them about it.

This is the whole point. I mean lets be frank here. You can put on your BK filing anything you want, you can tell the trustee anything you want, you can tell a district court or superior court judge anything you want, you can say what ever you like in a deposition. Will anyone know you are lying? Most people that lie no one knows until your caught. But, if I know I have money that I am intentionally hiding from any of the above and I commit fraud or perjury, this is why the penalty for even small amounts can be so stiff. Look you can go rob banks all day long and its not a problem until you get caught. This is no different. Here is what is so stupid about this though. First the typical Joe that goes in and lies about not having any assets and then has <$10,000 stuffed in a mattress is risking a huge penalty and jail time of around 1-3 years over <$10K. He thinks no one will know and I am sure this happens a lot. I have read many BK fraud cases just like this (matter of fact I would suggest anyone thinking about it google it and when you see how little money people lied over and the penalty they got, I don't think you would still do it) I mean I read a case of a guy local to me to was almost 80 years old who got 5 years in prison for hiding assets and his wife who was 76 got 2 years. Now you read the case and think what an idiot. But Federal Prosecutor had no problem putting an 80+ year old man away for 5 years since he lied about owning a house and some property that he sold to his Mexican farm worker and then "bought" it back only a couple months after his BK was closed. For someone with no assets how did he come up with the money to buy the house back only a couple months after BK? Must have been that lumpy mattress? Yes it was, busted!




It is rare mostly since it costs the plaintiff money to conduct and if you have nothing they wasted the money. Also if you owe small amounts <$10K it is generally not worth the time or money to conduct one. Also, they are really only done if the plaintiff has reason to believe you have assets they don't know about. Example: you owe ABC credit card, they sue you get a default judgment. They then manage to serve you for a debtors exam. They reviewed your credit card statements and see you travel to another state and made a lot of charges to a vacation lake resort, you charged a lot of fuel, some repairs at a marina, slip rental. So in the debtors exam they ask what assets you own, they find you own a 40' houseboat that is paid off and worth $200K. Without the debtors exam they would not have known about the asset. More typical (I did this when I sued this lady) grandma we knew had around $200K in cash from the sale of a house. But you have no idea where she had the money put. I sued her and won a $45K judgment against her. But since I don't have a bank account number or know where the money is at I HAVE to conduct a debtors exam to find it if she doesn't pay the judgment. In my case she paid only hours before we were going to serve here with notice of the debtors exam. Had she failed to pay me she would have been served and then you simply ask where is the money, what bank, what account number. Then have the judge issue an order to allow me to seize the money from her bank. That is how it works, but you really have to have an idea they have something before you waste your money on a fishing expedition. In my case I did the leg work, found she sold her old house, it was paid off, I pulled the records of the sale and we calculated she had over $200K. So we (me and my attorney) knew grandma was flush with cash. But she kept telling her attorney and us during the depositions she was on a fixed income and had no assets (we knew better). We never let her know we knew about the money she has all during the depositions. Once we won and I got a judgment we demanded payment. Her attorney wrote saying; look she is on a fixed income and has nothing, best you can do is lien on her new house. Well we knew grandma didn't pay down the new house she bought and had $200K+ floating around. So we send a demand. Then a couple days before we were going to serve her and 30 days past the date for her to pay me, we sent her and her attorney an accounting of the sale of her old house and the fact we knew she had cash. Her attorney called mine, was very apologetic, explained he didn't know she failed to tell him (see he can't be part of any fraud) and that same day we got a FedEx letter stating they money would be send via certified funds by the end of the next week, and it was. But you can often tell who is hiding stuff when things don't add up.




Well its not a warrant, but if I sue you and win I can then post a bond to have the sheriff come out and inventory your items and then seize items that are non-exempt. Now this is highly state dependent. Remember you have exemptions in most states and it is UP TO YOU TO EXERCISE YOUR EXEMPTIONS AND STATE WHAT IS EXEMPT!!! A somewhat typical scenario for this would be, I sue you and win a judgment for a defaulted credit card. You have recently charged up thousands of dollars of TV's, stereos, computers (now this is not the same as a security interest in those items that is different) but I have a good reason to believe you have a lot of stuff that is NOT exempt so we go looking for it. And one last example, ex-wives, unknowing family member and neighbors are your best source for screwing you. Say a creditor pokes around and talks to your ex-wife you screwed over. She says, "That SOB has this huge Rolex collection must be worth $50K." So I am now down at the court getting a judge to order the seizure of the property and I get to look around for other non-exempt items or take enough to cover what is owed to me.


Look bottom line is this, if you really don't have much nothing is going to happen and you don't need to lie. If you really do have assets and cash and want to lie about it then you may end up paying the price. Nothing says you can't get creative within the laws of being exempt. But once you are over the exemptions you run the risk of losing those items or money.

Again if anyone else has anything to add or correct what I have said please chime in. A lot of what I talk about is from personal experience an is based on my states laws.

Yes, that varies widely from state to state. In Arizona, "the sheriff's constable has no right of entry into a debtor's home" for a civil judgment. The document from the local government goes on to state that unless you know exactly what the debtor has and where it is located, the constable will probably not be able to do you much good to collect the judgment owed to you. You simply don't answer the door when the constable arrives on the scene, and there is not much they can do. I sure wouldn't tell them anything.

Bigboy, I respectfully disagree with you, while your specific posts do not advocate the idea, and your opinion is not advocating such things, others in the thread have done just that, which is what I stated in my post, this has nothing to do with your posts. So lets agree that I misstated my sentence, and should have said, "parts of this thread are just promoting fraud". Happy now?

Anyone with a shred of intelligence can put 2 and 2 together on this one, you have got to be kidding me bro. When I made a post about storing savings at home in a safe, I never even used the word "court" or "trustee", it was a post in the collection forum concerning garnishments. While for whatever reason people choose to use these prepaid cards, you can bet that people will get or give ideas, just like the three posts explicitly state below. I dont know how much more specific you need me to be, just read through all the posts on the thread, some dont imply anything, others absolutely do.








As you can see, people are implying about utilizing the cards to store cash on, and implying that the trustee would not ever even know about it, which is totally a different ball of wax. The last time I checked, thats called fraud. Do you have some other name for it BigBoy? Of course that is a rhetorical question. I do see the prepaid cards as a means of not having your bank account garnished by some slum creditor, but then posts quickly turned from that, to talking about how the "trustee would never even know about it", etc.etc.

Case closed.


BTW.

Treehugger, sorry I dont mean to use your post as an example, I know you mean well and dont advocate fraud, but Bigboy wanted some examples or specifics of how people could interpret the posts.



Do you honestly think the trustee is going to waste his or her time trying to track down a pre-paid VISA card? I am confident they would NEVER find out unless you tell them. So, you are not going to get in trouble for this kind of "white" fraud (like white lies).

Do you honestly think the trustee is going to waste his or her time trying to track down a pre-paid VISA card? I am confident they would NEVER find out unless you tell them. So, you are not going to get in trouble for this kind of "white" fraud (like white lies).

No, but you are held under oath, so "IF" they found out, get your prison blues on. There are several hundred thousand of people that are incarcerated for "white lies", of course ones one interpretation of a white lie will vary. It should be treated as cash on hand, so to go out and purposely defraud the bankruptcy system is a fallacy.

It is people that share your opinion that have brought the re-form to the bankruptcy laws that we now must all deal with, otherwise, someone meaningful in their indebtedness could have filed another Chapter 7, or could qualify regardless of their income, etc, etc.

While your at the idea of hiding hundreds even thousands of dollars on prepaid visas, why not hide everything else too, heck the trustee wont check. What a ludicrous motto and advice you have, I bet you steal cable too.

Optimistic, I don't see where anyone is advocating fraud on this post. The laws are left open for interpretation. As I've said in other posts, if this were not the case, we would not need attorneys and judges. The pre-paid visa/MC accounts clearly state their rules related to whether or not they constitute a "checking, savings, or any other bank account." They clearly state to the consumer that they DO NOT.

I think the reason folks have come to such an intersection in financial decisions is due to the changes under the 2005 revised BK laws; not the other way around as you suggest. As people find themselves in deeper and deeper financial straights, you will see far more reliance on non-traditional methods of "cash-like" transactions. I think you will also find such companies who offer pre-paid debit/gift cards work harder to protect their customers' privacy and autonomy than do the main-stream banks. I am amazed at the number of cash transactions that I now see in my local grocery stores and other retail stores. Cash leaves little trail and pre-paid debit cards as as close to that as you can get.

The point being made on some of the posts here is not that anyone would intentionally hide assets, including cash. The point is that such assets are potentially hard to uncover and the companies offering such services work very hard to protect their customers' security and privacy. These companies probably know exactly who their customers are: BK, chex-systems, etc.

I'll gladly pay $5 - $10 per month to protect my privacy and "keep" my financial situation to myself in the future. Would I lie under oath? Absolutely not. On the other hand, I need to know what the question is, and I need to be educated to know how to answer a question related to "bank accounts."

You know what BigBoy, I am not going to even respond to your insults. The moderators clearly told me not to, so I will place you on ignore once again. Keep in mind, I am not the only person that you appear to have a "problem with" on this forum. Its funny, because you are the only one who gets into these squabbles with members.

Each person is entitled to their own opinion, although some make so much more sense than others.

Have a nice life.

Optimistic, I don't see where anyone is advocating fraud on this post. The laws are left open for interpretation. As I've said in other posts, if this were not the case, we would not need attorneys and judges. The pre-paid visa/MC accounts clearly state their rules related to whether or not they constitute a "checking, savings, or any other bank account." They clearly state to the consumer that they DO NOT.
other retail stores. Cash leaves little trail and pre-paid debit cards as as close to that as you can get.


I am not gonna spell it out again, there are a number of posts in this thread where people have typed things like "the trustee would never know".

What part of that specific statement does not constitute fraud?

Now, to use the prepaid visas with the intent to insure privacy, or to not allow a slum creditor to garnish, I am totally for. But it is clear that others made posts on this thread with the intent to store cash on a prepaid visa, and imply that the trustee would never even know. I dont see how you are not seeing it the way I am. But oh well, im not gonna sit here and insult you and tell you how stupid you are and how you act like your so much better than everyone, and on and on and on.

You know Optimistic1 I don't know what your problem is, but the fact you are the same boat as many of the rest of us and then go around pointing fingers as if your on some higher moral ground is really getting old, don't even try to paint yourself as being "better" your only making yourself look like a fool.

I don't give rats azz if someone else wants to lie to the trustee its NOT my problem. I will do what I want and I would suggest that if you plan to stay on this forum maybe you should go read the forum rules again.

But I am damn tired of our flat out rudeness to others on this forum. You have accused people of fraudulent behavior and now to tell someone else they are to blame for the BK reform that took place several years ago and then throw in they steal cable only means one thing; your projecting your own problems onto someone else.

So, simply grow up, act like an adult or go find another forum to whine on. Your constant child like behavior, name calling and unfounded accusations will not be tolerated.

I can tell you this right now, with your attitude and they way you have continued to behave, I wouldn't expect many people on here to give you anymore advice or even worse accurate advice.

Good luck, you seem to need it.

Well we each have the ability to control our posts and responsibilty for our own actions. I commend you for at least acknowledging you do this yourself. If you are tired of it by all means take whatever steps you believe will help you change your behavior.

I'm glad for you that the only entertainment you get out of life is in this forum. You are just the greatest person on the planet.

If the mods want to ban me for a TOS violation, then so be it. Like I cant just sign up again at my work computer.

I am sure that insulting other members in the forum and using profanity is also a TOS violation, but I wont waste any more time on this thread looking up Terms of Service rules like you.


Can someone please remind me how to ignore members posts? I did it before, and now I forgot.

Control Panel

Setting and Options

Edit Ignore List

I keep going back to the original posts and replys related to whether or not pre-paid debit/gift cards are safe from the scrutiny of OC's/JDB's/Attorney's/trustees/etc. The answer is still "most likely, YES." Can such accounts be queried under examination.? The answer is YES. Is a debtor required to be "honest?" Ethically, the answer is YES. But, one would have to be kidding themself if they thought that most folks don't fudge on their BK papers. The entire point is to protect everything that you possibly can protect. In my OPINION, the only information anyone has about you is the information you are WILLING to divulge. I say start a new life. Protect everything you have from OC's/JDB's/attorney's/trustees/etc. Let your own morals be your guide; not the law, which is definitely open to interpretations.

I somtimes wonder about whether or not not someone might consider me to be a "deadbeat." Well, I have not made use of federal BK laws. I am willing to put myself before the courts of my state. I'm willing to let laws dictate my fate. I could quit my job and 6 months from now file a BK 7 and walk away free and clear of unsecured debt. Is this the ethical path? Folks do this all the time! The difference between deadbeat, "fraudulent debtor," and BK Filer is not very clear, in my opinion.

If you have assets, I still say you should protect them in whatever manner is available to you. I do not advocate fraud, but I do advocate protection of your assets if you are uncertain when/if you will file a BK. The laws afford debtors all sorts of protections. Why not use the laws? H*ll, I didn't write the laws, but I am free to make use of the laws of my state.

Here is an interesting exemption from Oregon. "Exempt funds on deposit to the amount of $7500.00 are protected from seizure." Since Oregon does not follow the federal exemptions for BK, you can bet your *ss, I would only divulge assets that are not exempt under a debtor exam, trustee query, etc. I would be more than willng to divulge any information related to non-exempt funds. The answer is easy; nothing, nada, zippo, etc. Is this fraudulent? I doubt it. State laws vary, so your mileage may be different.

And, I would always suggest that folks worried about debtor exams and/or trustee issues (341) should take the time to attend any such proceedings in their local/regional courts or regional BK proceedings. You might be surprised as to what is actually asked of a debtor.

I keep going back to the original posts and replys related to whether or not pre-paid debit/gift cards are safe from the scrutiny of OC's/JDB's/Attorney's/trustees/etc. The answer is still "most likely, YES." Can such accounts be queried under examination.? The answer is YES. Is a debtor required to be "honest?" Ethically, the answer is YES. But, one would have to be kidding themself if they thought that most folks don't fudge on their BK papers. The entire point is to protect everything that you possibly can protect. In my OPINION, the only information anyone has about you is the information you are WILLING to divulge. I say start a new life. Protect everything you have from OC's/JDB's/attorney's/trustees/etc. Let your own morals be your guide; not the law, which is definitely open to interpretations.

I somtimes wonder about whether or not not someone might consider me to be a "deadbeat." Well, I have not made use of federal BK laws. I am willing to put myself before the courts of my state. I'm willing to let laws dictate my fate. I could quit my job and 6 months from now file a BK 7 and walk away free and clear of unsecured debt. Is this the ethical path? Folks do this all the time! The difference between deadbeat, "fraudulent debtor," and BK Filer is not very clear, in my opinion.

If you have assets, I still say you should protect them in whatever manner is available to you. I do not advocate fraud, but I do advocate protection of your assets if you are uncertain when/if you will file a BK. The laws afford debtors all sorts of protections. Why not use the laws? H*ll, I didn't write the laws, but I am free to make use of the laws of my state.

Here is an interesting exemption from Oregon. "Exempt funds on deposit to the amount of $7500.00 are protected from seizure." Since Oregon does not follow the federal exemptions for BK, you can bet your *ss, I would only divulge assets that are not exempt under a debtor exam, trustee query, etc. I would be more than willng to divulge any information related to non-exempt funds. The answer is easy; nothing, nada, zippo, etc. Is this fraudulent? I doubt it. State laws vary, so your mileage may be different.

And, I would always suggest that folks worried about debtor exams and/or trustee issues (341) should take the time to attend any such proceedings in their local/regional courts or regional BK proceedings. You might be surprised as to what is actually asked of a debtor.

I think this statement is incorrect and inappropriate. I think most people are very honest in their petitions. To suggest otherwise on this forum may give a new reader the wrong ideas.

You are correct, and I apologize. "fudging" was a terrible word to use. What I meant to say is that I believe some folks do preplan a BK. And, there is nothing wrong with that. Again, I don't think preplanning is fraudulent the way I am thinking about it. I guess what I am trying to say is that some folks get so strapped trying to pay their CC's and other unsecured debts that they probably have not have decent diets, healthcare, etc. Sometimes it can take six months to a year to build a solid financial trail that shows where you do spend your money. I guess what many people finally end up showing on their petitions is probably far more generous than what their basic necessities were at the time they first realized they were bankrupt. From what I can glean from the BK 13 threads, it is generally in your favor to have a good record of receipts.

This thread on prepaid debit cards seems to have gotten out of hand; myself included.

Thanks Ohio. I appreciate the reality check.

Ok, let's end this.