Providian Credit Card

[bkfiler]

regarding the credit card...

i never did have any lawsuit collections for my credit card and i ended up with over $13K in debt with much of that in cash advances.

in fact, im not even sure they sold the account off. it was over a year ago or more.

does anybody have experience with them? do they fight hard and object, etc?

thanks for your input

[sunshine08]

What exactly are you asking??? Are you concerned they will come to the 341 meeting so to speak? When ws the last time you used the card & for what?
If you had a balance transfer or a cash advance within the last 90 days before filing, they probably will. If it ihas been more than 6 months or so before you filed you will proably be ok.
Providian likes to sell accounts, I am surprised they didn't do that.

[StaciMM]

If its been more than a year since you used hte account, you're probably fine. The general window is 2-3 months, though they may go back further if you had cash transfers, etc. I doubt they'd go back past a year though.

[bkfiler]

my large cash advances were well over a year ago.

after which i stopped paying them after only 2 payments more.

anybody deal with them or know how this would work out?

if anyone comes to the 431 what the heck do i tell them? do they say "you intended to de-fraud us and if you dont sign a re-affirmation today we will pursue it!" what exaclty do they say at these meetings?

how much does out attorney allow us to say about the specific details of the charges, cash advances, time period, payments etc?

thanks

[StaciMM]

If they were going to raise an objection, they would likely first contact your attorney about working out a deal. (As I understand it, they don't like to deal w/ the BK court-too many hoops to jump thru.) I've read posts here about creditors contacting the attorney, and offering a settlement. (Such as paying $3000 of a $5000 cash advance.) If your attorney hasn't heard anything, AND its been more than a year, you should be ok I would think.

my large cash advances were well over a year ago.

after which i stopped paying them after only 2 payments more.

anybody deal with them or know how this would work out?

if anyone comes to the 431 what the heck do i tell them? do they say "you intended to de-fraud us and if you dont sign a re-affirmation today we will pursue it!" what exaclty do they say at these meetings?

how much does out attorney allow us to say about the specific details of the charges, cash advances, time period, payments etc?

thanks

[bkfiler]

well, the cash advances were over a year ago. btu that is the only sticky situation i can think of.

i only recently filed for a bk 7. so im waiting to see who does what. its what we all sit here wondering about i suppose lol.

great to hear that they usually contact attorney first to see what is possible. however, i get the feeling that most attorneys will shove them through the court so they have to prove something.

most attorneys i talk to and people seem to say the card usage was way to long ago. that doesnt make sense to me. since i stopped paying so shortly after the cash advances it seems to me they could argue that it was my intent not to pay. i can and will argue the actual truth but it takes more money and time.

[StaciMM]

Keep in mind that the creditor has limited resources for investigating BK cases, and would have to pay for representation if they decided to pursue it. I doubt they would do that when it is likely the bk court would throw it out. Think risk vs. reward. If there is not much chance that the creditor will get anything from it, they won't want to put anything more into it.

most attorneys i talk to and people seem to say the card usage was way to long ago. that doesnt make sense to me. since i stopped paying so shortly after the cash advances it seems to me they could argue that it was my intent not to pay. i can and will argue the actual truth but it takes more money and time.

[jennga]

My biggest cc was Providian and I had worried about that as well. I had maxed out the card at least a year ago but had some cash advances. I had not paid them in like 6 months before I bk'd. They were the least aggressive of any creditors in calls, threats, etc. And on the flip side they sent me numerous letters offering me help and be willing to work with me, etc. Of course by that time I had nothing in the way of money to even attempt to work with them.

As far as the creditors showing up at 341's and asking questions etc, I was in a packed room full of people. The entire time I was there not a single creditor showed up, there were those representatives that showed up for folks reaffirming on homes or cars, but that was all quietly done somewhere else in the room.. My Trustee would ask out loud on each individual... are there any creditors here for such and such. Not a one. SO I am inclined to agree with others who say that creditors do not show up unless they are fairly certain they have a cut and dried reason to object. Good luck, I know the worrying doesn't stop but it helped me to know what others had been through.

[sunshine08]

You should be fine. They can't really do anything unless they can prove fraud after about 90 days from last use. A large balance transfer or cash advance is a flag for a period before that. If they were the least aggressive, they probable figured b looking at your credit report what you were getting ready to do. They have attorneys to pay etc. it pretty much has to be an wasy case. Keep in touch. Try not to worry to much.

[bkfiler]

"They can't really do anything unless they can prove fraud after about 90 days from last use. A large balance transfer or cash advance is a flag for a period before that."

what do you mean?

i had two large cash advances well over a year ago and ended up not being able to pay anylonger 2 months after that. so they go probably no more then 2 payments. i was unemployed at the time.

guess they could charge me with 'desparate-ness'.

does anybodu know what they ask if the ever do attend a 341 meeting? seems that my attorney should have me decline to answer to protect myself, right?

[AAAArt]

The Trustee is not a judge and it is not a courtroom. Whatever the Trustee asks you, you must truthfully answer. To try to do something like "plead the Fifth" would get you case kicked out. It is my understanding that the only way in which you can get in legal trouble is to lie in your statement or to the trustee.
Anything which happened a year ago should not cause a problem.

[sunshine08]

Look at it this way, it was a year ago, when you got the cash advance was it your intenton to pay it back? If the answer is yes. Then it is not fraud. Did you make any payments? You said 2? Did they contact you? How long after thelast payment did you file? If you waited at least say 120 days, you are probably in the clear.
Remember, the 341 meeting is a court of law and you are under an oath to tell the truth. Do not keep anthing from them IF they ask. Chances are they will not ask.

[bkfiler]

yes i understand. never lie of course to the court.

i was asking about saying anything to questions from the creditors if an show up. does the attorney allow you to answer anything to them?

[StaciMM]

If creditors show, they are there to ask questions. Answer truthfully, but don't let yourself get trapped. If they were to ask, for example, 'when did you first consider BK' and you said a year ago and you used the card after that time, then you might have an issue. If you say about a month before I filed, no problem.

About Sunshine's post that the creditor can go back beyond 90 days, they can do so but it gets harder. THere really isn't a 'magic' #. If you did a cash advance 30 days before filing, it is assumed to be fraud. If you did a cash advance 91 days before filing, the creditor could try to prove fraud but nothing is assumed. (They could question if your finances changed, for example. If you lost your job and took a large cash advance without any real ability to pay, they might have a case. If your financial situation deteriorated AFTER the cash advance, it would be hard for them to prove you had bad intentions at the time you took the advance.) The further back they look, the harder it is to prove that you did anything wrong. Afterall, alot changes in a year!

[bkfiler]

"They could question if your finances changed, for example. If you lost your job and took a large cash advance without any real ability to pay, they might have a case. If your financial situation deteriorated AFTER the cash advance, it would be hard for them to prove you had bad intentions at the time you took the advance"


umm i used tens of thousands of dollars to live on starting well over 2 years ago after i lost my job. i also traded stocks with it in hopes of making a living at that, but lost a lot of it. 4 years later i get laid off again and im fed up and filed bk.

what do you think about that situation? i dont understand the time thing when put together with a "ability to pay thing" because as you cen see from my case no i didnt have a job. i lived on my credit cards, plus some savings i had plus my ira's. so they can still show that i didnt have a job at the time regardless of how long ago it was. i kept paying them for well over 1 year if not close to 2 years.

my intenet was to and still is in a strange way to pay them back. i filed becuase the laws are changing and i can always pay them back if i feel its important later on.