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    I learned something and I need opinions.

    I spent a lot of time over the weekend looking thru the new BK law for a definition of family/household/dependents. If we can count my Mom, who lives with us, we fall under the Median Income. If we can't count Mom, we are a smidge over the Median Income. One dependent more or less is a huge difference for us. But there's no definitions set forth in the new BK law.

    Since the BK law refers back to the IRS code a lot, and uses information provided by the Census Bureau, I checked both. According to both the IRS and the Census Bureau, Mom is a dependent. She's related by blood and or marriage, according to the Census Bureau. She's a Parent/Parent-in-Law whose earned income is less than $3400/year and we provide the bulk of her living support. She doesn't pay rent, no phone bill, no utilities bills, etc., so she qualifies that way with the IRS.

    Let me start with we live in a smaller town. We are new here, but having lived in a small town before, I fig pretty much every one already knows every one. Several people we've talked to know our Landlord. Turns out the apt complex where Hubby rented before we moved here is owned by our landlord's son. There are/were only a dozen BK attnys in the phone book. 4 of those are no longer practicing since the laws changed. Legal Helpers' attny answered a couple of questions wrong so we are not even considering using them. I kinda fig'd the remaining attnys all know each other. I just didn't know exactly how small a world it really is.

    Every where I searched over the weekend, sites said if you have further questions, contact the Clerk of your local BK Court. So, this morning, I called the Clerk of the Court. She kept telling me to have my attny ask. I kept telling her we have only done consultations. We don't have an attny yet. The attnys we've consulted with have differing opinions. The Clerk finally gave me the phone # of a Trustee's office to call.

    So I call Trustee Brown's office (not real name). The person who answered the phone did not want to answer as that could be construed as giving legal advice. I said I'm not looking for advice, I want a definition. I told her about my research and no info in the new law on what constitutes a family/what dependents are or can be. I told her that different attnys we'd consulted had different opinions as well. So then she asked me if I had called Jones' office (not real name). He's the other Trustee in the area. What were his thoughts?? Turns out, one of the attny's we've consulted with is Jones' daughter. She's a practicing BK attny and partner in Jones' practice. At that point, the gal on the phone says we can't consult with Brown now as we had already seen Jones. If we do consult with Brown, and since we'd consulted with Jones' office, if we do file BK, the Court would be obligated to bring in another Trustee from an outside jurisdiction.

    The receptionist/secretary at Trustee Brown's office suggest I call "Vickie" (Jones' daughter's first name, not real in this case) and have her to get an interpretation from her Dad. After all, Jones is a Trustee. He should know.

    When we met with the geeky, nerdy guy, he made several comments. "He's picky that way." "He's mean that way." as Smith lopped off $ amount here and there of our expenses. If his comments were in reference to the Trustee, then "He" would be Trustee Jones. Trustee Brown is a woman. When we met with attny Jones, Trustee Jones' daughter, something Smith had said didn't set well with her. There was a flash across the face, a shift in body posture, then she recovered quickly and praised Smith as being a good attny. Maybe her reaction was because she knows her Dad really doesn't like the guy??!! Maybe that's why he's so picky and mean??

    Now I'm in a quandry. The attny we were supposed to meet with this week has rescheduled. He can't see us until Feb 6th. We haven't paid any CC payments or the house payment this month cause we don't know what to do. The attnys couldn't even agree on that. 2 said we are OK to file even tho our charges aren't outside the 90 day limit. They are smaller, living expenses oriented. No luxury goods. Smith wants us to wait. The longer we wait, the tougher it could be. We aren't over limit on any cards, but some are close. It won't take much in late fees and/or jumps in interest rates to push those over the edge.

    Any thoughts about using an attny who's the daughter of a Trustee?? Do we tell a sob story and pay some sort of payment to all our creditors for Jan to buy a little bit of time??
    Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
    Discharged - 12/2006
    Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
    Closed - 04/2007

    I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

    Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

    #2
    Can't offer much advice. However, if I were in that situation I would go to a bigger city and file. I'm kind of weary about the smaller towns attorneys/judges etc. Not to say they would do anything wrong, but I don't want them to even have the slightest idea in their head that they could ;) Good luck

    Comment


      #3
      That will be a problem, BK. Going to a large, metropolitan type town. There aren't any in our BK district.

      We are located about half way between 2 major midwestern cities. One of the major cities is in a different state. The other major city, in our state, is in the Southern district. All of the Northern district cities, 4 total, are smaller towns like ours. You have to file where you live and we live in a district where the Courts are located in smaller towns. UGH!
      Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
      Discharged - 12/2006
      Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
      Closed - 04/2007

      I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

      Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

      Comment


        #4
        I'd say to go w/ the attorney you feel most comfortable/confident with.

        If you're 110% certain that you're going to file bankruptcy, then don't pay anything to the creditors that you would not be keeping after the BK. It would be wasted money, regardless of whether you file tomorrow or in 3-6 months. Even if the balances get late fees, overlimit fees, etc. that really won't change anything. So you'll file on an account w/ $2598 rather than $2502.

        From everything I've heard, if you have 'normal' living expenses on the cards recently, those should not be an issue. On the other hand, if you can wait til more time passes, then it won't hurt. For the attorney that recommends waiting to file to let more time pass, she is likely erring on the side of caution because its hard to predict what will happen with the new laws. I think that is a better trait than an attorney who says 'don't worry about it' to everything.

        Its a shame that there are very few choices for you in terms of attorneys, etc. On the other hand, though, no one really knows much about how things will go w/ the new laws, so it is hard to say if you could get more info if you had more resources.
        Most of my information is from personal experience or HOURS and HOURS of online research. When you're searching online, keep in mind there is no guarantee that the info is completely up to date, and your situation is unique from anyone else's. Do your homework, and consult with an attorney so you can make an informed decision.

        Comment


          #5
          The attny who said to wait is the geeky, nerdy one who lives/files in fear of the Court. He tends to work on the safe side rather than take a risk.

          2 have said they thought it would be OK to proceed. One said worst case, we might have to pay back the charge for son's books. The other one, the lady who's the daughter of the Trustee, physically looked at our CC bills/charges. She said it was obvious that the purchases were groceries, gasoline, life type expenses. There weren't any huge $$ amounts in any ONE charge. No luxury items. She felt we'd be safe to proceed as well.

          I kinda felt since the other Trustee's office called her by her first name in a nice way, the lady who's dad is a Trustee is respected. I may have read that wrong. I'm thinking since Dad's a Trustee and she's his partner, Dad has a vested interest in her cases. The other Trustee might expect/think that she's dotted all her i's and crossed all her t's coming in. Maybe less scrutiny??

          The one we've chatted with in a phone consult, I have an odd feel about him. I asked if he wanted to meet us face to face and look at our info first. Nope. He said just call him when we decide to do something and he'd take it from there. He wouldn't even ballpark a fee. He said he might have to seek help from an attny in the old state and that would run us more. That's true, but the law says they have to tell you up front what the fee will be. So if he'd said, "I'll charge $1500 plus filing fees plus extra for seeking additional counsel.", I wouldn't worry so much. But he didn't say anything like that. Plus too, his paralegal dissed the geeky, nerdy attny before we ever went to see him. I thought that was a bit unprofessional. Turns out we didn't care for the geeky, nerdy guy much, but it was a personal, interaction thing. Not his knowledge as an attny that we questioned. Still unprofessional to diss someone like that, I think. The lady attny praised the geeky, nerdy guy as being a good attny performing good service for his clients, and referred to him as a collegue when I called him a competitor.

          At this point, the lady attny is the one we feel most comfortable with. But Dad being a Trustee kinda throws a wrinkle in things.

          You are so right, Staci, the lack of options being a problem for us. Not just attnys to interview either. It's who we are broadcasting our info to as well. The Lady attny knows our Landlord. How lovely if that happens to come up in casual conversation. The small town gets even smaller!!
          Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
          Discharged - 12/2006
          Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
          Closed - 04/2007

          I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

          Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

          Comment


            #6
            I guess there are 2 sides to every coin. Overly cautious, or afraid to take risks-similar outcome!

            I've NEVER heard of recent 'everyday' type charges causing a problem. And, the 'worst case scenario' matches what I understand... If a charge/transaction results in an objection-it only affects THAT transaction-not the entire account balance, or any other accounts.

            I'd say go w/ the daughter of the trustee... From what you've posted, she seems to be knowledgeable (as much as is possible w/ the new laws) and she did NOT take an opportunity to talk down about her 'colleague'.
            Most of my information is from personal experience or HOURS and HOURS of online research. When you're searching online, keep in mind there is no guarantee that the info is completely up to date, and your situation is unique from anyone else's. Do your homework, and consult with an attorney so you can make an informed decision.

            Comment


              #7
              Update

              The daughter of the Trustee told us if we had any follow-up questions, to feel free to call her with them.

              THANK YOU BKFILER, for your piece of advise to call them back after Consults.

              I called her. I asked for her assistant, but assistant only works Tues and Thurs. So I actually got to speak to the attny!!

              I asked if she had checked on whether or not we could take Mom. She said that was something she'd have to check into during our Consult meeting. She said she hadn't since she didn't know if we would retain them or not. I told her about my research, the IRS and Census Bureau definitions, and she said we had sound basis for using Mom as a dependent. The geeky/nerdy attny didn't wanna go there because he was afraid it would open a whole can of worms about Mom's income and expenses. The Lady attny said we'd just show her income and her outgo, and that she does not contribute to the household if we got asked.

              Another question I had was,........ We have equity in the newer vehicle that we already have a loan on. Could we do a cash out refi. We'd get rid of the equity and have money for attnys fees, taxes, etc. Not frills, but real expenses. She said we could do what we want, but she would advise against it. It could be construed as fraud by the Court to do a refi on the "eve" of filing BK. I had asked the phone consult attny the same question and he said, "Sure! You can do that." Hummmmmm..............
              Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
              Discharged - 12/2006
              Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
              Closed - 04/2007

              I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

              Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

              Comment

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