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filed non-consumer chap 7 this morning

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  • filed non-consumer chap 7 this morning

    We had signing appointment yesterday but there were some things that needed to be changed on petition.
    I reviewed the changes by email this morning and then told paralegal to go a head and file. As of a few minutes ago I have joined the "bk brotherhood" on this forum.

    I know I should be happy but I have this overwhelming sense of dread and am imagining all that can go wrong. With a non-consumer we do not have to worry about presumption of abuse but we made a lot of money in the past but have little assets to show for it. (mostly because we dumped thousands each year into the stupid rentals).

    I fear the trustee is going to think we are hiding assets. My attorney must feel that way too because yesterday he said "we will get you through this but don't be shocked if you get called back for a few 341 meetings depending on what trustee you get."

    That made me feel queasy too but then again my attorney is a very matter of fact dry personality but extremely competent. The guy is almost an android. Maybe he was just being pessimistic and presenting worst case scenario.

    I am usually strong on these matters but would like to hear some encouraging words from my non-consumer allies.
    Thanks,

  • #2
    porkchop - I don't have any experience in non-consumer bk, but I wanted to say congrats on filing! And, that you have come to the right place for support!
    Filed Ch 7 Sept '10, 341 Meeting Oct '10, Discharged Dec '10, Case Closed Jan '11

    EQ 2/8/11 - 584, 6/2/11 - 677

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by porkchopcash View Post
      We had signing appointment yesterday but there were some things that needed to be changed on petition.
      I reviewed the changes by email this morning and then told paralegal to go a head and file. As of a few minutes ago I have joined the "bk brotherhood" on this forum.

      I know I should be happy but I have this overwhelming sense of dread and am imagining all that can go wrong. With a non-consumer we do not have to worry about presumption of abuse but we made a lot of money in the past but have little assets to show for it. (mostly because we dumped thousands each year into the stupid rentals).

      I fear the trustee is going to think we are hiding assets. My attorney must feel that way too because yesterday he said "we will get you through this but don't be shocked if you get called back for a few 341 meetings depending on what trustee you get."

      That made me feel queasy too but then again my attorney is a very matter of fact dry personality but extremely competent. The guy is almost an android. Maybe he was just being pessimistic and presenting worst case scenario.

      I am usually strong on these matters but would like to hear some encouraging words from my non-consumer allies.
      Thanks,
      Porkchop, congrats on finally biting the bullet. I will be following your posts diligently from now on, as I plan to file non-consumer bk7 myself in a few months, but not in Ohio, we are moving to North Carolina. I am curious, in one of your previous posts, you said you were looking at a DMI of 1k-2k a month, then later said you would make sure there was no discretionary income. So what did you end up with? One attorney I emailed in NC said they had never done a non-consumer with more than $500 DMI. Am just curious what your total DMI ended up being, and if a lot less than the 1-2k ... how did you make that happen?

      Comment


      • #4
        As long as you were honest, you will have no problems. It might take a couple of 341 meetings to wrap everything up, but that's ok too.

        I had the same situation as you, with a lot of money coming in, even more going back out into the rentals, and nothing to show for it.

        You'll be fine....
        All information contained in this post is for informational and amusement purposes only.
        Bankruptcy is a process, not an event.......

        Comment


        • #5
          Since I am self employed we took the low end of my earnings, which is applicable because business has been down for the few months, as my monthly amount.
          I also included my daughter's college tuition at a high end value and then my attorney (this is what we pay them for) mentioned that I would still have non-dischargeable tax debt after the bk so he put in a high estimated payment amount for that. This put income/expenses in the negative.

          Understand this is just on my schedules, not a full means test. We left means test blank because it is non-applicable in the non-consumer case.

          If an attorney told you they have never filed a non-consumer with over 500 DMI than you need to find another attorney. You should be able to have excessive DMI and still get non-consumer discharge because it is my understanding that there can be no presumption of abuse on non-consumer.

          Strawberry, I would recommend you look up some posts by frogger and justbroke on this forum. They are both experienced with the non-consumer 7.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by porkchopcash View Post
            Since I am self employed we took the low end of my earnings, which is applicable because business has been down for the few months, as my monthly amount.
            I also included my daughter's college tuition at a high end value and then my attorney (this is what we pay them for) mentioned that I would still have non-dischargeable tax debt after the bk so he put in a high estimated payment amount for that. This put income/expenses in the negative.

            Understand this is just on my schedules, not a full means test. We left means test blank because it is non-applicable in the non-consumer case.

            If an attorney told you they have never filed a non-consumer with over 500 DMI than you need to find another attorney. You should be able to have excessive DMI and still get non-consumer discharge because it is my understanding that there can be no presumption of abuse on non-consumer.

            Strawberry, I would recommend you look up some posts by frogger and justbroke on this forum. They are both experienced with the non-consumer 7.
            Thanks, porkchop, I will do that (re: frogger and jb). The main reason it matters to us is we have navy retirement check plus normal paycheck. Since we are moving to NC, we planned on hubby getting ajob that pays a bit less, in his field. However, we didn't plan on hubby's current empolyer being so helpful. He is sad to lose him but determined to help him get the best job he can in the new city! He says "Pick out which companies you want to apply to and I will make the call". His field is Home Theater, so his boss plans on telling them something along the lines of "We are the premier HT company in Columbus, and he is my top guy, and you are an idiot if you don't hire him", only in a nicer way. As problems go, it's agood one to have, was just worried about making the same amount or more for our BK, lol. Thanks and good luck, keep us posted here!

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi, we did a non-consumer Chapter 7 last year after bleeding money all over our rental properties for years. Looking back, I just can't believe that we spent so much keeping those properties afloat. Yes, we too made lots of money and now have nothing to show for it. It's OK. Everything will be fine, and you have more (and better) company than you know!

              We did not have to do extra meetings or submit extra documents, but I was prepared for that eventuality. If you haven't already done it, now is the time to get everything organized (I used 3-ring binders). If you are missing important documents (like tax returns), ask for replacements.

              Why do you think the trustee will worry about you hiding assets? (Rhetorical question, don't feel like you have to answer.) Document the heck out of your lack of assets, and you will feel better. Chin up, you've made it this far!
              Filed non-consumer no asset Chapter 7 on 7-12-10 after 4 foreclosures, 7 lawsuits including 2 deficiencies, 2 wage garnishments, a bank garnishment and a partridge in a pear tree. 341 held on 8-11-10. Discharge 11-4-10.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes there is not presumption of abuse in a non-consumer, but you still have the possiblity of "totallity of the circumstances" challenges.

                If you make too much, they can try to force you into a 13 or have it dismiss, so showing too much DMI is still a problem.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Sweetgeorgia,
                  I am also located in Georgia and I am just beginning the process to explore filing a non consumer BK. Can you give me a recommendation for Lawyers that have experience with non consumer cases. I have met with 3 so far and none of them seemed confident that I would not need a "means test".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Congratulations on filing! Like others, I don't know much (anything, really!) on non-consumer, but I nevertheless wanted to wish you the best of luck, and I will be following all of your updates!
                    Decided on Chapter 7: October 13, 2010; Retained Attorney: October 20, 2010; Filed Chapter 7: February 4, 2011; 341 Meeting: March 23, 2011; Discharged: May 24, 2011

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wow, and here I thought we were about the only ones in this situation. Filed non-consumer, due to rentals killing us financially. We showed about 1K positive every month in our filing. I was stressed and had some of the same concerns - dismissal for totality of circumstances, trustee looking deeper into our case due to our past income...but nothing came of any of those things - at least not yet. I think we (non consumer filers, rental property owners) are becoming more typical now and trustees understand our types of cases and so they proceed with less scrutiny.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by chrisdfw View Post
                        If you make too much, they can try to force you into a 13 or have it dismiss, so showing too much DMI is still a problem.
                        Exactly where do you find this in the bk code?
                        All information contained in this post is for informational and amusement purposes only.
                        Bankruptcy is a process, not an event.......

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can't recall what they use for totality of the circumstances, 727 perhaps, I'd look it up but its late and I am tired.

                          Technically it isn't just the DMI they object to like under the BK reform, but there has always been the ability to claim abuse based on very high income and ability to repay.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by frogger View Post
                            Exactly where do you find this in the bk code?
                            Its not. It seems to be by opinion and different across districts. Our attorney, who is also a trustee, told us that in our district they "might" take a look at our case if we showed 4-5K positive every month. He indicated that it is different in other districts but did not go into any details.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by angles View Post
                              Its not. It seems to be by opinion and different across districts. Our attorney, who is also a trustee, told us that in our district they "might" take a look at our case if we showed 4-5K positive every month. He indicated that it is different in other districts but did not go into any details.
                              On a slightly different note, you said something interesting: your attorney is also a trustee. When I got my initial notice from the court after filing, it listed the name of my trustee, so I did a Google search (curious), and sure enough, she, too, is a local bankruptcy attorney.

                              Is this normal? I freely admit I don't know much more than what I have learned here and from my attorney, but I assumed (wrongly!!) that a trustee was just that, a trustee who worked for the court, and that was his or her job.

                              I guess not.
                              Decided on Chapter 7: October 13, 2010; Retained Attorney: October 20, 2010; Filed Chapter 7: February 4, 2011; 341 Meeting: March 23, 2011; Discharged: May 24, 2011

                              Comment

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