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Chapter 7 - Bankruptcy Form Question(s)

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  • Chapter 7 - Bankruptcy Form Question(s)

    Hello to Everyone - this is my first post, and hope to learn a lot - looks like i have a lot of reading to do, but with little time. I'm also filing Pro Se.

    Here's a quick question:

    Official Form 22 A - Chapter 7 Statement of Current Monthly Income and Means Test Calculation:

    Line #14 - where it asks for household size - do I include any family members living with me even though they are not a part of the bankruptcy filing, such as a parent that I take care of but they have their own income and are not filing?

    I'm concerned about getting the little details correct as I don't want my filing to be thrown out on a small technicality.

    Thank you in advance.
    Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
    341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
    . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

  • #2
    "Household size" carries its ordinary definition.

    If you increase the household size for relatives, roommates, etc., you have to include everything they contribute to your household. So if they chip in for groceries and utilities, that's part of your monthly income.
    Filed Joint, No Asset, > $100,000 Unsecured Ch.7 6/7/13 ~~ 341 Meeting 7/15/13 ~~ Discharged 9/16/13 !!

    Comment


    • #3
      Also, they are part of your expenses--electricity, water, sewer, heat...
      "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

      "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pizza View Post
        "Household size" carries its ordinary definition. ;-)

        If you increase the household size for relatives, roommates, etc., you have to include everything they contribute to your household. So if they chip in for groceries and utilities, that's part of your monthly income.
        Originally posted by AngelinaCat View Post
        Also, they are part of your expenses--electricity, water, sewer, heat...
        Thank you Pizza. And thanks to you too, AngelinaCat. ;-)

        My situation is a little different, as I moved into my Mothers' house to take care of her, as she's in her mid-80's now. She owns the house; pays the yearly taxes & assessments; electricity bill; buys her own (special diet) groceries; gas for her car; cloths & all other misc.'s, and pays her own medical/dental type expenses, etc.

        I pay the water bill; help with the gas bill; pay for her internet & cable (DirecTV); pay her monthly AT&T phone bill; and approx. 1/3-1/2 of her groceries. Additionally, I pay for many of the household improvements, upkeep & repairs (ie- new landscape work & stone retaining walls; new deck trellis; new siding trim & painted it; new exterior door frame & puttied, caulked and painted; removed, cleaned & replaced A/C condensate drain at the furnace; installed new water heater & gas hook-up & all related parts; installed new microwave; installed new closet pantry; various plumbing repairs at three bathrooms; installed new gas dryer vent; roof cleaning; A/C Ext. Condenser cleaning, plus several other house repairs, as well as several (labor) repairs (she buys parts) for her car, etc.-etc.

        So she doesn't have to hire a landscape service... I also perform (and pay for) all monthly landscape maintenance (mowing; edging; fertilizing; flowerbed maintenance; weed & pest control, etc.). Also do all snow removal in the winter.

        So, do I need "to include everything (she) contribute(s) to (her) household."...since she owns the house, and I'm actually living (in her house) taking care or her? Thanks again in advance.
        Last edited by bianci; 07-17-2013, 03:46 PM.
        Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
        341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
        . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gems4me
          I have a similar situation where I contribute to help my mom with groceries, life alert, nursing home bill and misc, but I do not live with her. I am wondering if I can claim her expenses, I am not sure what will happen if I go Chapter 13 and they will not let me help her.
          The code does allow you to help with the support of family members.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by keepmine View Post
            The code does allow you to help with the support of family members.
            When using said code, make sure you have a paper trail - copies of cancelled checks, etc. Be willing and forthcoming with bank statements any everything else the Trustee will want to see. Problem is, you don't know what the Trustee will want until after you file, and after you file you will likely get cut off from online and mailed access to those records. So be sure to keep statements, receipts, online tracking of payments, etc right up until they day you file. You may not need them, but you have them if you do. Use checks to pay bills and expenses, since cash does not leave a trail (unless you believe the folks with tinfoil hats). Per Keepmine above, you are permitted to draw a line from your checking account to a dependent's needs, but that line should be pretty straight, clear, and with as few gaps as possible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bianci View Post
              So, do I need "to include everything (she) contribute(s) to (her) household."...since she owns the house, and I'm actually living (in her house) taking care or her? Thanks again in advance.
              Since you are the one filing BK, the Trustee will be interested in what you earn, what you pay, and where it goes. It is hard to place a value on your lawn-mowing skills (unless you happen to own a lawn business) but if you pay necessities such as a water bill the Trustee will want to see it listed, will want to see proof, and may need an answer to the question "Why" do you pay these if you are insolvent?

              P.S. You can still claim the basic federal housing expense for your area even if you do not actually pay rent.

              P.P.S. You might consider approaching a couple local attorneys, even if you think you can't afford one. Filing Pro Se is fraught with potholes and landmines unless you are a pretty straightforward case. When paying other peoples' expenses, you can become a complex case pretty quickly.
              Last edited by btbeme; 07-18-2013, 01:48 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                More than one collection agency / claim -- for the same debt?

                Originally posted by btbeme View Post
                Since you are the one filing BK, the Trustee will be interested in what you earn, what you pay, and where it goes. It is hard to place a value on your lawn-mowing skills (unless you happen to own a lawn business) but if you pay necessities such as a water bill the Trustee will want to see it listed, will want to see proof, and may need an answer to the question "Why" do you pay these if you are insolvent?

                P.S. You can still claim the basic federal housing expense for your area even if you do not actually pay rent.

                P.P.S. You might consider approaching a couple local attorneys, even if you think you can't afford one. Filing Pro Se is fraught with potholes and landmines unless you are a pretty straightforward case. When paying other peoples' expenses, you can become a complex case pretty quickly.
                Thank you very much, btbeme, for your help with this.

                Another question, if you don't mind: I'm currently filling out form "Schedule F: Creditors Holding NonPriority Claims", and have a question about how to list them. I have a few accounts that show on my credit report the original creditor, then further down, the collection agency claiming the same amount, then another collection agency claiming the same amount for the same original creditor.

                On one debt, the OC and 2 different collection agencies (for the same original creditor) appear on my credit reports.
                On another debt, the OC is listed on my credit report...but not the collection agency.

                Question is.... do I list all claimants for the same debt (even if a collection agency has sent me debt collector papers, but is not appearing on my credit report) as I really don't know in who's "hands" these accounts from the original creditors are currently being held?
                In the one case, should I be listing 3 different creditors, but for the same original debt ??? ...(btw, each collector varies the amount slightly).

                Does this make sense? Thanks in advance for any response.
                Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
                341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
                . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Usually you only have to list the original creditor and not the collection agencies, as long as the account numbers and amount of debt match. If there is a difference somewhere, list both to be on the safe side.

                  Some posters have gone ahead and listed everything as found on the credit reports, that also to be on the safe side.

                  My thought is that once the junk debt buyers (JDB) enter the picture, the debt can pass through dozens of these very quickly. You can't be expected to keep track of them all. You might pull your report one day, and the debt be transferred the next day.

                  Good luck with your forms. That was the most daunting part of it for us. If you run out of room on the form, you can list them on a separate sheet of paper, and in the box corresponding to the question you are trying to answer, put this: 'See attached Exhibit A'.
                  "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

                  "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you so much, AngelinaCat. Your quick response is very, very much appreciated and helpful. The one collection agency that was not listed on my credit report was also not listed on my mailing matrix that I submitted to the bankruptcy court (because I just found the collection letter in searching for another document). I am being sued by the original creditor for this particular debt, but this collection agency is not represented in the lawsuit and I am assuming they are a JDB. Do you think its worth amending my mailing matrix with the BK court in order to get a notice to the collection agency that didn't appear on my credit report? I am thinking that because the lawsuit with the original creditor is more recent than this collection agency's letter, I don't really have to. Your thoughts? Sorry for the multiple questions, but really appreciate the help in advance.
                    Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
                    341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
                    . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Once you are Discharged, that lawsuit will go away. Since the lawsuit is newer, I don't think you need to add the JDB. If they annoy you after your Discharge, send a copy of your Discharge Order along with a C & D letter to them. Send a copy to your attorney.

                      If the debt changes hands, you may have to do this more than once.
                      "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

                      "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you again for your help - I'm filing Pro Se, so yes it is all pretty daunting as I have to have all forms completed and turned in tomorrow. I appreciate your thoughts on the previous question. Thank you so much!
                        Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
                        341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
                        . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have listed several debts more than once due to the different claimants, so this makes the total figures seem higher than I believe they should be - do you happen to know how that is handled/viewed by the court/trustee?
                          Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
                          341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
                          . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am now on Schedule D of the Forms: I have a simple Car Loan and unsure of what to put in column 4: Value of the Property Subject to Lien - is this the Fair market value/blue book value? Thanks
                            Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
                            341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
                            . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Btw... I am trying to complete all the A~J Schedules, TODAY (or by Monday morning 11:00am - 22 July - at the latest) , so if anyone who's filed Pro Se has any advise or tips, on completing Schedules A~J... I'd so gratefully appreciated any suggestions and/or advise offered. Thanks very much!
                              Chapter 7 Filed ~ Pro Se — 7-10-2013
                              341 Meeting ~ Pro Se — 8-14-2013
                              . . grateful to now be a '60 Day Club' newbie!

                              Comment

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