Worst case scenario above median Ch. 7 experience

[WoodSprite]

Even with an attorney, YOU'RE ultimately responsible

HELP!'s "worst case scenario" post was so full of really helpful pointers I wanted to make sure this one didn't get overlooked:

(6) We thought our job as debtors was to provide the attorney/paralegal with the numbers and they would do the rest. Didn't realize that *we* were the ones who would have to explain the calculations at our 341 hearing or that *we* could be held responsible for a number the attorney came up with. If we had known that a misstatement on our petition could be considered perjury, we would have made sure our petition was 100% accurate.

I loved my attorney, and he really was worth the expense, but I have to say he scared the socks off of me just before the 341, when he handed me the re-affirmation agreement to sign for my leased car. (He wasn't being a jerk waiting until the last minute; he was actually saving me the expense of driving nearly an hour to his office to do it before the 341).

Anyway, I looked it all over, and noticed a little clause in there that said something to effect that "I affirm that I can continue to handle this payment because my monthly income is $____ and my monthly expenses are $____, leaving me $____ to pay this expense." A paralegal had dutifully filled in the blanks based on the paperwork being filed - only the last line was a negative number!

My heart stopped, and I asked, "um, isn't the trustee going to notice that my disposable income is a negative number and that on paper I can't actually afford this car?"

He looked at me quite serenely and said "so, what's the answer?".

WHA...??

Of course, there was an honest and reasonable answer; we had already discussed this. And there was a line on the form inviting me to explain any extenuating circumstances, which I did in a single sentence, as soon as I calmed down enough to think clearly. But had one of us not noticed that (or any other little detail) before my case number was called, the trustee would have quite properly asked me (not my attorney) what the heck I thought I was pulling, and a frightened and panicked reaction would almost certainly have raised her suspicions, although I was doing nothing dishonest and had absolutely nothing to hide.

The point is, even the best-intentioned attorney is not clairvoyant, and her or she can only represent your interests if you take responsibility for understanding the process as best you're able. If you don't understand something, or if the numbers you have provided seem to indicate something other than reality, speak up! If you do your homework, you'll be in a position to answer the reasonable questions that come up at the 341 a bit more calmly.

Of course, if your trustee is an evil wretch, all bets are off...

Thanks, HELP! for the great post.

[rfassett]

The best advice... never, ever give up!

You have learned well, my friend!

And Yoda says, "Do or do not, there is no try!"

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Wow! Incredible, informative post. I am so sorry that you had to go through this... but if you'll forgive me, glad that it was you, because you've already started turning it into great things by helping other people. All that worry and suffering was no waste, if it changes lives for the better. That's the way I see it, at least.

I am so glad you finally received your discharge!!!!

[danaf]

Help! - Very well written and articulate post. The mods should make this a sticky so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

[berrymom31]

Help, thank you so much. It makes me feel better about being only 8,000 above the median....gives me some hope that 7 will work for us! It also makes me think we need to get a new lawyer.....one that will really work for us and try his/her best to get a 7 for us. I feel like our lawyer now is pushing the work off on her paralegal and she is running the numbers and what you see is what you get. We get no information from her regarding where she got the chapter 13 payment from...she says over 2,000 in disposable income and when I did the legalcomsumer.com test...we are in the negative.....

I'm giving them until Friday to give me some inkling that they are willing to work for us towards a 7...and them I'm gone.

[shark]

I think they were fraternal twins separated at birth. Seriously.

Mine cant add or put things on the right line. Maybe they have a brother!! I dont know how many times I've had to have mistakes fixed on our schedules before they are filed. He almost had us in chapter 13 by omitting obvious deductions on the Means, like Health savings account of 180.00 a month. We went from on the fence to way negative on the Means...........lawyers

and claimed on Schedule J, we use 100.00 mth for eyeglasses.....

[gymbo]

GREAT post. Very helpful, thanks.
Did you file a complaint or anything against that attorney? That's ridiculous!

[Help!]

Ms. Help! Thank you for this information. A $%^*(&^damned doorstop would have made a better BK attorney for you than what yours was. Are you sure you aren't in Florida and using a female BK attorney from Gainesville? Yours and ours could be identical twins.

I think they were fraternal twins separated at birth. Seriously.

[AngelinaCat]

Ms. Help! Thank you for this information. A $%^*(&^damned doorstop would have made a better BK attorney for you than what yours was. Are you sure you aren't in Florida and using a female BK attorney from Gainesville? Yours and ours could be identical twins.

[liz417]

Thanks for posting your experience, it goes to show you that it is very important to interview 3 or more attorneys!

Hang in there...

[Help!]

Great summary Help

With regards to one-time payments counting as income, has anyone out there ever tried to rebut the presumption of abuse by stating that since these payments are non-recurring income, they should not be counted on the means?

Thanks, and yes... I remember seeing one in New Mexico in which the court sided with the debtor and against the UST about a one-time $20K bonus. Not sure how much it cost them to object to the discharge and for their attorney to file the brief, but they did get the discharge.

[laurannm]

Great summary Help

With regards to one-time payments counting as income, has anyone out there ever tried to rebut the presumption of abuse by stating that since these payments are non-recurring income, they should not be counted on the means?

[kimba251]

Great post with lots of info, thanks

[catdance23]

Thanks so much for posting this. I have a lawyer but I will definitely be on top of my case. You have already helped someone by sharing your story. Thanks so much!!!

[soleprop]

oh my goodness - that sounds like the roller coaster ride from....someplace awful!!!! so glad you made it through, and please tell me you've reviewed your attorney by name (but maintaining your anonymity) somewhere public or on the web so that future filers can steer clear??

hearing stories like yours makes me happy with my choice to tackle this Pro Se. what your attorney did has to be illegal somehow. I'd rather be mad at myself for not researching or not knowing something than be furious with a supposed professional who got paid more money than I've had to rub together in 4 years.