AMEX filing suit

[floridian]

at the moment, my greatest fears are losing the motorcycle and being forced into a chap13 due to excess disposable income...originally i was going to walk away from my home, but that plan went south... im current on my mortgage...

if im forced into a 13, wont the trustee strip me to the bone, so that i couldnt afford the bike anyway?

i was originally going to file this month, but everything is on hold for the moment...

the lawyer said that if im forced into a 13, i could pay on it for a couple of months and then quit... im not sure of the reasoning... wouldnt that put me back at square one and turn the dogs loose on me? im dont understand...

[CompTweaker]

CT, I have a question for you. It is not meant to inflame you. I think you posted you are poor. My question to you is, "why not just declare BK 7?" It sounds as if you could figure out how to do this by yourself with minimum cost.

If you are attempting to see how far you can take things in a state that doesn't seem to have a cost associated with filing answers, then the "game" might be enough. Would this still resolve your debts?

If it were not for some family members who might need my help in the near future, and the issue with student loans, I would file for 13 tomorrow. On the other hand, I'm 36 months away from early retirement and could file for a 7 six months later. (This still won't make the student loan issue vanish.) I'm not "poor." I make very good money and there is no doubt I'd be in a 100% BK 13 plan. I'm not ready yet, and I can live fine on 75% of takehome pay which is far more than the US trustee here will give me. In the meantime, I'll use whatever tools are within my grasp and are cost-friendly in my county/state and federal district (ninth district.)

Technically, I'm bankrupt in the sense that my liabilitites far outweigh my assets. I also believe that this is the growing case with many Americans; especially in the current economic situation where many folks have their assets tied up in the "value" of their homes. But, since the BK laws don't always address BK in terms of liabilitites versus assets, many people will be looking for ways to excape the wrath of a BK 13 plan.

I appreciate your posts on defending yourself in civil lawsuits related to debt. Your information is important for those folks with the means to forestall the future. I don't know how realistic your information is to the common folks who must make a decision to save a home, auto, etc.

My question for you still relates to BK, which is the subject of this forum. Why have you not declared BK? You probably posted this somewhere, but please refresh our memories. Thanks!

No problem TH, you've never posted anything to me that gets personal. I havent completely ruled out filing bk. I would just rather save it for if and when I really need to file it. When i first came to this site, my homestead exemption was $5000. That was a big reason why I stalled on filing because I knew I had about $8000-$12000 in home equity value, and figured I would have to get a pretty good paying job in order to qualify for a ch. 13 just to save my home. Well, over some time, the homestead exemption increased to $50,000. By then, I had learned a lot about bk and collections, specifically JDB's. But I'm getting on up in age where I have a family history of health issues, and have no health insurance, so you really never know if something may occur where Im staring at a huge hospital debt. Now trust me, I do not want to see any debt ever again, especially some kind of hospital debt which Ive never had, but what if I filed bk on JDB debt, then had a stroke or something where Im facing $30,000 or more in hospital debt, and then they come after me and take my home and anything else (which isnt much) that they can take? Im pretty sure I would be protected under my bk exemptions since that would also apply to judgements, but if my home made a sudden jump in value over 5 years, and it got over the exemption amount, they could come after it.
So it boils down to fighting lawsuits where it has paid off with a few, or being intimidated by JDB's who paid pennies on the dollar for junk debt that I would rather try to fight first than use the bk on. If I lost the lawsuits, and it was worth it, I would use the bk. Its just what works for me.

[2Bshinyandnew]

after reading a bit about ride thoughs on this forum, i asked the lawyer if that was an option.. he more or less said that they dont do much of those in florida anymore...

he seemed to think that a motorcycle could not be reaffirmed...

the first motorcycle is blue book 3000 more than i owe, although with the current market it is unrealistic...so i dont know how that would figure..

the second motorcycle is worth about 3000 less than i owe..

maybe the trustee would think he could make money selling the first one and take it, i just dont have a clue how this will play out...

the lawyer also told me, that since the first motorcycle is financed thru the same credit union as the one that was repoed, that they may not give me the title if it was paid off...

anyone have any suggestions? i really hate to lose them, i could care less about my other possessions.. (other than my cats, that is.)

The first motorcycle that has equity, I'm thinking the trustee will be interested in it for sure. The second motorcycle that has negative equity...why would your attorney believe the creditor would repo an upside-down item that the debtor is current on? If you keep paying, I would bet the creditor would just let you "ride through". I didn't think a "ride-through" was an actual transaction, more an end result? The title could be a problem, but not something that couldn't be fixed down the road. If you came to the point where you had to file, on the Statement of Intentions check off your intention to reaffirm the second bike, and see what happens from there. I can't imagine ANY lender taking back any secured property that has negative equity and the borrower is current and stays current. I know things are weird out there now, but, sheesh, could that really happen?

Would you be OK if you were able to keep one motorcycle?
Would you be claiming a home under a homestead exemption or using the $4000 exemption for non-homestead filers?

[treehugger1]

CT, I have a question for you. It is not meant to inflame you. I think you posted you are poor. My question to you is, "why not just declare BK 7?" It sounds as if you could figure out how to do this by yourself with minimum cost.

If you are attempting to see how far you can take things in a state that doesn't seem to have a cost associated with filing answers, then the "game" might be enough. Would this still resolve your debts?

If it were not for some family members who might need my help in the near future, and the issue with student loans, I would file for 13 tomorrow. On the other hand, I'm 36 months away from early retirement and could file for a 7 six months later. (This still won't make the student loan issue vanish.) I'm not "poor." I make very good money and there is no doubt I'd be in a 100% BK 13 plan. I'm not ready yet, and I can live fine on 75% of takehome pay which is far more than the US trustee here will give me. In the meantime, I'll use whatever tools are within my grasp and are cost-friendly in my county/state and federal district (ninth district.)

Technically, I'm bankrupt in the sense that my liabilitites far outweigh my assets. I also believe that this is the growing case with many Americans; especially in the current economic situation where many folks have their assets tied up in the "value" of their homes. But, since the BK laws don't always address BK in terms of liabilitites versus assets, many people will be looking for ways to excape the wrath of a BK 13 plan.

I appreciate your posts on defending yourself in civil lawsuits related to debt. Your information is important for those folks with the means to forestall the future. I don't know how realistic your information is to the common folks who must make a decision to save a home, auto, etc.

My question for you still relates to BK, which is the subject of this forum. Why have you not declared BK? You probably posted this somewhere, but please refresh our memories. Thanks!

[floridian]

after reading a bit about ride thoughs on this forum, i asked the lawyer if that was an option.. he more or less said that they dont do much of those in florida anymore...

he seemed to think that a motorcycle could not be reaffirmed...

the first motorcycle is blue book 3000 more than i owe, although with the current market it is unrealistic...so i dont know how that would figure..

the second motorcycle is worth about 3000 less than i owe..

maybe the trustee would think he could make money selling the first one and take it, i just dont have a clue how this will play out...

the lawyer also told me, that since the first motorcycle is financed thru the same credit union as the one that was repoed, that they may not give me the title if it was paid off...

anyone have any suggestions? i really hate to lose them, i could care less about my other possessions.. (other than my cats, that is.)

[floridian]

the lawyer said that my motorcycles are luxury items and i would not be able to keep them....
i had an expensive harley and turned it back in to the credit union...im sure after they auction it off, i will owe about 10k in deficiency on it..

i still have two bikes... i told the lawyer that i would keep on making payments on them until the last minute, when i was ordered to turn them in....

i had counted on a chap 7, but due to excess disposable income, i may be looking at a 13...

i guess it really doesnt matter, as far as being able to keep the bikes....

its not just being greedy that makes me want to keep the bikes..... they are my primary transportation.... i have an elderly mom in a retirement villa that i visit every day, as she is 88 years old... its a 44 mile trip to visit her and the bikes get 50 mpg.....

i have a toyota PU truck, that gets 20 mpg....

i will delay the bk as long as possible, so i can keep the bikes, but ive already paid the lawyer his fee....he said to let him know when im ready to go foward..

[floridian]

yep, the kitty has made a come back... hes a fighter....from my observations, 14 seems to be the magic number for a cats longevity...

ive got about 35k in cc debt and probably 10k in deficiency on a repo vehicle...

if there was only a way i could keep my motorcycle in a bk, i would go ahead and file..but alas, the lawyer said no...

if i could swing a chapter 7, i could keep on making payments and maybe it would slip out of the radar... but since im looking at a 13, i will be under a trustees thumb...

[CompTweaker]

yep, im toast... i pulled up my counties docket and citibank is suing everybody...i owe them about 3600 bucks..
campus usa credit union has the majority of the suits... they have about ten pages of victims.... im sure they will come after me for about ten grand..damn damn damn...

oh, i forgot the really good news... one of my friends wives is the civil court clerk... he is the hot-line for gossip in the area.... so like i said, im toast..

Well, I dont know your situation, but is $3600 of debt the only debt you want to file BK on? In my opinion, the amount should be a lot higher than that to get me to file....but thats just me and Im in no way trying to force my opinion on you or anyone.

BTW, is your cat still hanging in there? I hope so. A close friend of mine had to say goodbye to their 14 year old last week. Mine is 12 yrs old. Anyways, feel free to PM me or ask questions here and if I can help, I'll try my best. Im working now and working 48+ hours a week, but just give me some time to respond and I'll get back to you.

[floridian]

yep, im toast... i pulled up my counties docket and citibank is suing everybody...i owe them about 3600 bucks..
campus usa credit union has the majority of the suits... they have about ten pages of victims.... im sure they will come after me for about ten grand..damn damn damn...

oh, i forgot the really good news... one of my friends wives is the civil court clerk... he is the hot-line for gossip in the area.... so like i said, im toast..

[CompTweaker]

well, i owe chase 10k, so i guess im toast!

Its all according to your assets and income, is it an OC or JDB suing you, what is your state's statutes and exemptions, and if the one suing you has the right to do so.

Anyone can sue anybody for anything. Anyone could pull your credit report, see a charged off debt, and then file suit against you claiming they have the right to collect on it. If you choose to NOT fight it, and ignore answering the complaint, and ignore making them prove their case, then that plaintiff has just got an easy default judgement against you where you eventually have to pay or do something to vacate the judgement.

The ball is in the plaintiff's court to prove you owe. So answer the complaint denying their right to judgement, and make them prove their case. Why roll over and be intimidated to the point of allowing some john doe to come along seeking to collect money from you? ME, Im going to ask for proof before I let them get an easy default judgement. Like I said, it isnt for everyone, but good gosh, IT IS pretty easy to enforce your right TO DEMAND AND SEE PROOF that they have the right to collect that money, and that YOU OWE that money.

Isnt that why we're all here anyway? Issues with money, whether it be seeking BK or seeking how to respond to debt collectors on the phone, through letters, or through the courts. We should all be here to help people regardless of our own personal opinions about somebody. Facts are facts, and the law is the law.....it has no preference to race, age, skin color, or IQ.

[CompTweaker]

The only way to avoid that is Bankruptcy. Any judgment liens against exempt property are nuked when you file bankruptcy, even if it has been 10 years. If you are collection proof, then anything you do own falls under the Florida Bankruptcy exemptions anyway, ie: your home.

Judgement liens against exempt property hold no value, as long as the non-exempt property isnt worth more than the judgement, hence the word "exempt".

All judgement liens are nuked when you file BK, as long as it is a ch.7.
But if it is a ch.13, priority debt is taken into account first, and then if any is left over, according to the lien holder's debt priority status, they may or may not be nuked until the ch.13 is satisfied.

[2Bshinyandnew]

well, i owe chase 10k, so i guess im toast!

Have you checked your county's docket? Look up Chase as the party and see if they are filing small claims (less than $2500) as well as in the circuit civil court (more than $2500) That will give you a good idea of what you can expect. The same search engine checks all of Florida's courts. With experience you can tell by the case # which court a case is filed in, in the meantime you may have to go into each case and look.

Also, in your last post you asked:

"say he gets a judgement against me and cant collect, do they think that 10 years down the road i will want to clear my credit and give them a check or what??"

Yes. That is what they hope for. The only way to avoid that is Bankruptcy. Any judgment liens against exempt property are nuked when you file bankruptcy, even if it has been 10 years. If you are collection proof, then anything you do own falls under the Florida Bankruptcy exemptions anyway, ie: your home.

[floridian]

well, i owe chase 10k, so i guess im toast!

[CompTweaker]

ok, let me ask this question..... if you are garnish proof and the debt collector knows it, why would they go to the trouble of taking it to court???

say he gets a judgement against me and cant collect, do they think that 10 years down the road i will want to clear my credit and give them a check or what??

if they know you are going to file bk, same thing, why go after a debtor??

i think in my area, it cost about 275 bucks to file in small claims court, for say a 10,000 dollar issue...

If you own property (real estate, auto, boat, etc.), they put a lien against it so that before you sell it or transfer it, the lien must be paid first. But, if you have a bunch of equity in that property, enough to satisfy the judgement, say a $20,000 boat that is paid for, and a $10,000 judgement, according to state rules, they could go after it to seize it (after they pay you for that state's exemptions, if there are any). They sell it to satisfy judgement and any money left over (if there is some) goes back to you.

Im poor, and everything I own is protected by my state's exemptions. Now if I didnt fight back and let the plaintiff get a default judgement, and he/she filed a lien on my property, (in my state a lien is good for 10 years), then they're banking on the fact that your property will gain in value, or other factors, and you cant get a home equity loan on that increased value, say 9 years down the road, until that lien is satisfied (paid off), or it expires. If the lien holder is paying attention, they can watch the value, pull your credit report to see what you owe, and once it gets over your state's exemption value, they can try to collect on the lien. But they still must consider the fact they have to PAY you the exemption amount first, then consider the costs of seizing and selling the property.

But if you're rich with many assets, you can bet the lien holder will come after you. If not, then thats when the lawyers decide those factors when considering if they should pursue you or not. Default judgements are the easiest, you're not fighting back and they love it. When you DO fight back, and MAKE them expend their time and money chasing proof, thats when they consider the fact that maybe you will file BK, or you're just not worth pursuing. They dont want to chase poor people because they know the effort will not be worth it. Now an easy default, whether you're rich or poor, they will take that any day.....its easy. But you make it hard on them by fighting back, in which you're well within your right to do so.

[2Bshinyandnew]

Nice posting and I concur. In the Bankruptcy Claims business, it's easy to prove you have a credit account when the creditor can produce several months of statements. Plenty of caselaw on that.

However, I would venture to guess that most responses to the plethora and varying questions on this site, get answered very simply and in simple generic terms. I am guilty of that at times, and I will even go so far as to add some disclaimer or put parameters around it.

This has been, actually, a great discussion on judgments, lawsuits, and fighting in court. I learned something, some new strategy, but don't think I'll be using it anytime soon. Maybe we can get you (BB2U) to post a message with the details of fighting (as you did in this thread) and make it a sticky. I'm sure more will come and ask a similar question.

I agree Justbroke, and BTW, your blog is awesome! I learn a lot from your posts, thank you.