Complaint from atty - looks like its from the court...

[WhatMoney]

A video of the December 2009 arguments before the MN Supreme Court can be watched and listened to here:

http://www.tpt.org/courts/MNJudicial...mber=A09-1221#

Case Name: Savig v. First National Bank of Omaha and Messerli & Kramer
Case Number: A09-1221
Date of Oral Argument: 12/1/2009
Opinion: Not Available

I predict the opinion will favor the defendents, eg. the creditors and banks.
Then the MN Federal Court will also rule against the plaintiffs (the joint account debtors), and joint accounts will still be garnishable in MN, without regard to funds ownership, as they are today, and it will be up to the non-debtor joint account owner to challenge the garnishment of his portions of the funds in a garnishment hearing under the MN garnishment due process rules. Just as in every other state - there are always risks when parties opens a joint account if one party gets a money judgment.

The Savigs’ interpretation would have serious practical implications for post-judgment creditors seeking repayment of debts from joint accounts. While joint accounts are often referred to as a “poor man’s will,” see Note, The “Poor Man’s Will” Gains Respectability: Using the Minnesota Multi-Party Accounts Act, 1 Wm. Mitchell L. Rev. 48, 48 (1974), nothing in Minnesota law requires the conclusion that a joint account is a debtor’s (rich or poor) equivalent to a Swiss bank account.

From the MN Federal Judge's order in Case 09-CV-00132.

[WhatMoney]

Yes sir I do...and it probably would not cost that much, and even if it
did, they would be paying every penny of it back...and there is nothing
questionable about it...MN says you can not levy/seize funds from a
joint account and take from jane in order to pay joe's debts...It
would be no different then suing any other collector for making
a debt/collection violation.

There is no such law in MN. As the attorney representing the plaintiffs has already said a month ago - the law is in a state of flux and joint accounts are still vulnerable in MN. You have not researched this case and are jumping to conclusions that have not yet been made. The article you keep quoting was written over a year ago - the attorney has not won the case - and it appears he is going to lose it big time once the MN supreme court rules on some certification questions. If anything as the result of the Savig v. First Nat'l Bank of Omaha case, MN laws on levy of joint accounts will be brought in line with the other states - and a creditor will be able to garnish funds from a joint account at will. And the burden of proof for non-debtor fund allocations in a joint account will be entirely with the debtor and non-debtor joint account holders - as it now is in all states.

Here is a summary of the Federal case that was filed in MN:
And here is the written intermediate decision/order from the US District Court, Minnesota Division:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23400547/Savig-v-FNB-Omaha

The courts ruling discusses in detail all the issues involved and the relevant case law. It is quite fascinating actually. It is clear the court is leaning toward ruling against the plaintiffs, the joint account debtor's and their attorney, in this case. You will also learn about the court's slap-down to the plaintiffs for quoting from Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice", which the court points out contains anti-semitic and inflammatory language. It is not wise to quote an anti-semitic passage when you are trying to argue your case in front of Jewish supreme court justices.

A hearing before the MN Supreme Court was held in December, 2009. Here is the case summary. There is no ruling on the certification questions yet. It could take months for the SC to rule.

Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 9:00 a.m.
Supreme Court Courtroom, State Capitol

Mona Savig and Robert Savig, Plaintiffs vs. First National Bank of Omaha and Messerli & Kramer, P.A., Defendants – Case No. A09-1221:

In 2004, First National Bank of Omaha obtained a default judgment against Mona and Lowell Bjerke for unpaid credit card bills. The Bjerkes later divorced and Mona married Robert Savig. In 2009, First National Bank garnished the Savigs’ joint checking and savings accounts at Midwest Bank. Robert Savig contends that at least some of the funds garnished belonged to him. The Savigs sued First National Bank and Messerli & Kramer, the law firm that served the garnishment summons, in federal court. The Minnesota Supreme Court has accepted three questions certified to it by the federal district court: (1) may a judgment creditor serve a garnishment summons on a joint account to satisfy the debt of an account holder when not all of the account holders are judgment debtors; (2) if so, is it the judgment creditor or the account holders who bear the burden of establishing net contributions to the account during the garnishment proceeding; and (3) if so, what applicable presumptions regarding ownership, if any, apply in the absence of proof of net contributions. (Questions certified by United States District Court for the District of Minnesota)

[dscurlock]

To have a joint account with your wife so "they can take your wife's money and she can sue them" is not a plan. Do you have the $2000 needed in attorney fees to execute such a questionable lawsuit? You've been given excellent advice by the posters here, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Yes sir I do...and it probably would not cost that much, and even if it
did, they would be paying every penny of it back...and there is nothing
questionable about it...MN says you can not levy/seize funds from a
joint account and take from jane in order to pay joe's debts...It
would be no different then suing any other collector for making
a debt/collection violation.

I am not hiding, I am just saying my mail goes to my po box...if they
find me, then they find me, great...there is nothing in my name, I
do not have a MN lic, they would have to do more work then the
regular joe to find me, and if they want to do a public notice,
then good for them...

[WhatMoney]

my wife wants them to levy our accounts so according
to mn law, she can sue them..you can not take wifes
income to pay my debts...personally, I would rather
not go through the hassle..

Blondeinmn has explained the entire civil lawsuit process in MN to you several times in about as clear language as possible. There is nothing more "official" about personal service by the sheriff than service by first class mail - it just costs them more money for personal service, which they will then bill to you.

The MN Hennepin County sherrif's dept. charges from $100-$200 for personal service, if the attorney uses them. Everything Blondeinmn and I have posted here about MN civil procedure is in complete agreement. There are no conflicts.

It sounds like your plan is to also avoid the sheriff's deputies if they try to serve you. Makes no difference if they are determined. They can also serve you by publication. If they find no assets for you they may not file for default judgment, or they may file and send you a court ordered interrogatory, which you must return or be in contempt of court.

Your fear of them taking your wife's money is completely unnecessary. They can only garnish assets in accounts where your name appears - period. Since you now know you should close any joint accounts, your wife's money should be safe.

To have a joint account with your wife so "they can take your wife's money and she can sue them" is not a plan. Do you have the $2000 needed in attorney fees to execute such a questionable lawsuit? You've been given excellent advice by the posters here, whether you acknowledge it or not.

[dscurlock]

If you don't return the acknowledgement, they will decide to serve you via process server or not. No way to know. They can fairly cheaply view your credit report, do an asset search, verify employment and decide if the case has a reasonable chance of being profitable for them. It's nothing personal, it's a business decision. By the way, most people seem to believe that returning the acknowledgement is a reponse to the suit and prevents default judgement. This is not the case. To respond to a lawsuit properly, you have to answer each allegation point by point. Many people return the acknowledgement and include a letter denying the debt. This does not protect you from default judgement. It brings it on.

I can assure you there is nothing in it for them...but why send it
if they do not plan on filing? Why have a sig on file for them
just to do nothing...? Now if they knew what i had in my
accounts, then they may have a smile on their face, but
that will not be for long, but if they did a credit/asset search
then they would see I personally have nothing for them to gain...

either they are bluffing with a complaint and summons, or they
know something that I do not know, then again, if they file
a judgement, then they probably can renew it forever....
but until i get something, they never will.

my wife wants them to levy our accounts so according
to mn law, she can sue them..you can not take wifes
income to pay my debts...personally, I would rather
not go through the hassle..

[blondeinmn]

If you don't return the acknowledgement, they will decide to serve you via process server or not. No way to know. They can fairly cheaply view your credit report, do an asset search, verify employment and decide if the case has a reasonable chance of being profitable for them. It's nothing personal, it's a business decision. By the way, most people seem to believe that returning the acknowledgement is a reponse to the suit and prevents default judgement. This is not the case. To respond to a lawsuit properly, you have to answer each allegation point by point. Many people return the acknowledgement and include a letter denying the debt. This does not protect you from default judgement. It brings it on.

[dscurlock]

You have mentioned a couple of times that you would expect something from the court. When you are sued in Minnesota, the court does not initiate the suit nor do they serve you with the summons. The plaintiffs' attorney initiates the suit and serves you with it. The courts are not involved until the case is filed. My guess is your summons does not even have a case number on it. Following is the standard method for suing someone in Minnesota.

1. Prepare summons
2. Send via first class mail with defendants acknowledgement attached.
Defendant signs and returns ackknowledgement. Valid service has now been completed. If defendant does not return acknowledgement, serve defendant in person via someone not party to suit. Valid service has now been completed.
3. Wait twenty days from date of service. Twenty calendar days not twenty business days.
4. If defendant has not responded properly to summons file suit along with affidavit of service or acknowledgement of summons and petition for default judgement.
5. If defendant has responded properly weigh chances of collecting versus outlay of time and money necessary to prevail.
According to attorneys I have talked to these types of pocket service suits as they are called are very effective, especially for smaller amounts. The only expense for the attorney is a sheet of paper, an envelope and a stamp. There is no filing fee unless the attorney actually files the case and they never have to unless they want to. If you make it easy for them, they figure you will be an easy mark. It's dog eat dog. I prefer steak.

either case, a valid summons in MN or most of states would be
to get the summons in person such as from a deputy...

good luck with that, unless they want to steak out the post office...

I wonder what they will do after their inital 20 days are up...

I do see what you are saying..they want me to sign this to save them
from having to pay someone to send the summons by official means...

[blondeinmn]

You have mentioned a couple of times that you would expect something from the court. When you are sued in Minnesota, the court does not initiate the suit nor do they serve you with the summons. The plaintiffs' attorney initiates the suit and serves you with it. The courts are not involved until the case is filed. My guess is your summons does not even have a case number on it. Following is the standard method for suing someone in Minnesota.

1. Prepare summons
2. Send via first class mail with defendants acknowledgement attached.
Defendant signs and returns ackknowledgement. Valid service has now been completed. If defendant does not return acknowledgement, serve defendant in person via someone not party to suit. Valid service has now been completed.
3. Wait twenty days from date of service. Twenty calendar days not twenty business days.
4. If defendant has not responded properly to summons file suit along with affidavit of service or acknowledgement of summons and petition for default judgement.
5. If defendant has responded properly weigh chances of collecting versus outlay of time and money necessary to prevail.
According to attorneys I have talked to these types of pocket service suits as they are called are very effective, especially for smaller amounts. The only expense for the attorney is a sheet of paper, an envelope and a stamp. There is no filing fee unless the attorney actually files the case and they never have to unless they want to. If you make it easy for them, they figure you will be an easy mark. It's dog eat dog. I prefer steak.

[dscurlock]

Worrying about what is valid service is really inconsequential. What are you trying to accomplish? Chapter 7 or Chapter 13? How much debt do you have? Any assets? Are you collection proof? What do you want to do? As for the previous post (when the sun hits the moon and pigs fly or something) that statement is is indicative of the attempt to instill fear I referred to earlier. Don't be controlled by fear. You have no control over when or by whom you will be sued. Concern yourself with those things over which you do have control. Making yourself collection proof, developing a strategy for your upcoming baknruptcy, managing your finances and quit worrying about what some attorney might do. Research, plan and organize.

I am just trying to keep my wifes money safe from grabs of
trying to come after me..they are not going to care whos
money it is when/if they start grabbing...but anyway, she
is getting her own account...

We are to rich to file chap 7...

and do not want to be poor and eat
bread because of a chap 13

anyways, she has worked a long time to
save up what little we do have, and I do
not plan on letting anyone take her money
away just to pay my debts...

I do not fear the judement itself, its what they
can do after the judgement is filed...

she will get her own accounts soon only in her
name, it will work out...

I have also visited the civil links to look up this atty's
name to see what cases he is done...never saw any
collection type cases, but a lot of civil cases that
included children, such as child support... thats wired...

[dscurlock]

Maybe my explanation was a bit unclear. Service of a summons in Minnesota by first class mail is valid service if and only if you send back the acknowledgement. The plaintiff will file that paperwork with the court as proof of valid service. If you don't respond, it is not valid service. The plaintiff will then have to serve you personally. Service has to be performed by someone not a party to the suit. That person has to complete an affidavit of service, have it notarized and file it along with the suit. All of this information is available by doing a search for minnesota rules of civil procedure. Minnesota civil courts have a website that explains the procedures. Read them. After thoroughly reading and understanding the process, consult an attorney and pick his or her brain. I paid a collection attorney $150.00 cash (no taxes I suppose) for a hour and a half of his time to answer my questions and clarify some issues. He also outlined the collection process, tactics and strategy of most collection agencies. It's a poker game. Bluff with a summons and most people will panic and fold (pay). This doesn't mean you will never be sued. Avoiding judgement is a short term strategy, unless you plan on never owning anything or never making any money or dying within the next year. Avoiding judgements allows you time to plan your bankruptcy properly and legally, avoid aps and qualify for a chapter 7 ( if that's your chapter). Don't take my word for it or anyone elses on this forum or anywhere else. Some responses on this forum can be inaccurate or not pertaining to your situation. Do the research, talk to an attorney and not just a bankruptcy attorney. It was the best $150.00 I ever spent. Also, since you have a good chance of being sued, get assets out of your name if you haven't already. You can legally and safely do this before notice of a suit. If you do it after notice, you may be commiting fraud. Any transfer of assets may have an impact on your upcoming bankruptcy, so if you don't know what you are doing consult an attorney. I am not advocating fraud. What I am saying is fully fund retirement accoounts, educational accounts, fix up your house, sell a car you have non-exempt equity in and fix the roof. Document everything and when the time is ripe pull the pin and file chapter 7. This is proper and wise planning. Filing an asset chapter 7 is a waste. If your married and not filing jointly have your spouse hold any non-exempt assets is their name. Just be very cognizant of the look back periods in bankruptcy. This is possible as Minnesota is not a community property state. Don't be fraudelent, be aggressive. And don't be afraid about it. Be tough, informed and organized. If you are, I believe you will feel more confident and in control of the situation. Yes, it is possible to feel good about filing bankruptcy. Not because you are getting out of something or sticking it to the man but because you are dealing with a problem in a constructive manner.

personally, I do not really care about a judgement..I just do not want them
trying to take money my wife has earned...but I do not want to deal with
months of fighting levied/seized accounts, etc...I have nothing in
my name other then an IRA account, and a mini-van thats probably
worth $1000-$1500

other then that, give me the damn judgement, and they can
chase their tail for the rest of my life...

BTW-I would never own land in MN as expensive as it is...
I plan to retire in a warmer state one day, and with
nothing in my name .. If i can help it...

[blondeinmn]

Worrying about what is valid service is really inconsequential. What are you trying to accomplish? Chapter 7 or Chapter 13? How much debt do you have? Any assets? Are you collection proof? What do you want to do? As for the previous post (when the sun hits the moon and pigs fly or something) that statement is is indicative of the attempt to instill fear I referred to earlier. Don't be controlled by fear. You have no control over when or by whom you will be sued. Concern yourself with those things over which you do have control. Making yourself collection proof, developing a strategy for your upcoming baknruptcy, managing your finances and quit worrying about what some attorney might do. Research, plan and organize.

[dscurlock]

By last post I assume you mean Whatsmoney and they said no such thing. You need to read more carefully.

What the law says is that you can ignore the stamped letter but if you do then when the attorney (not the courts) serves you personally you are now liable for the cost of that additional service.

Who knows if it's a scare tactic or not. That's a gamble. You have two choices. (1) You can respond now. (2) You can chose to ignore it. Is it possible that the attorney just walks away if you ignore it. Yes; it's possible. It's possible that the moon flies into the sun tomorrow and pigs fly.

you are assuming that i can not read...but I can read it just fine...
the wording is stating that if i do not reply within 20 days, then
the atty will enter an automatic judgement by default...

BlondeinMN explain. sounds more reasonable...the very same question
I had earlier..if they know it is me, then why have me sign something
they already know...? It seems they make the letter as court official
as possible in an attempt to scare me into signing it, and sending
it back....If i sign it, send it back, then I just did their job for them...

so until I am served by official means, IE: Sheriff...then it is nothing
more then an atty fishing for my sig to make his life easier...

[Dst1]

now I am hearing two different sides to this...

2: The last post here says to ignore it because it is just a scare
tactic. I guess he is saying you have to be legally served
by the court system which would cost more then a mere
first class stamp...

By last post I assume you mean Whatsmoney and they said no such thing. You need to read more carefully.

What the law says is that you can ignore the stamped letter but if you do then when the attorney (not the courts) serves you personally you are now liable for the cost of that additional service.

Who knows if it's a scare tactic or not. That's a gamble. You have two choices. (1) You can respond now. (2) You can chose to ignore it. Is it possible that the attorney just walks away if you ignore it. Yes; it's possible. It's possible that the moon flies into the sun tomorrow and pigs fly.

[jacko]

I live in MN and got served by a deputy sheriff with a summons from Crap One. My other creditors are begging for a settlement after looking at my credit report.

I ignored the summons and they got a judgement. They then sent me a debtor exam which I had to get a notary. I complied and sent out through snail mail. Apparently, they never received it because afterwards I have received two summons notices via mail(not register) informing me that my two checking accounts since closed(one has been closed for over 5 years) will be seized and that I have ten days to respond if any of the funds were exempt. I was asked to note if the accounts were closed. Never responded, due to being out of state. Sure glad that they did not get the debtor exam with my current bank info and vehicle info. Going to blow them off from now until they have to haul me in court. Made copies of the debtor exam with the notaries to cover my butt in case.

Since than, I have been pro active with my cash. I only have part-time work and receive a small monthly stipend from the folks to cover the utilities and groceries. My mom opened up a Wal-Mart Visa debit account, the student edition in her name and a courtesy card for me. Any excess cash after utilities and car insurance via bill pay from direct deposits will be ach to my pay pal and withdrawn via ATM for petty cash needs.

IRA's are protected.

now I am hearing two different sides to this...

1: one person says this summons and complaint that came by nothing
more then a first class stamp says this is completely legal by the
standards of MN...

2: The last post here says to ignore it because it is just a scare
tactic. I guess he is saying you have to be legally served
by the court system which would cost more then a mere
first class stamp...

I do find it hard to believe that a lone attorney can get you
entered as judgement by default just because you do not
respond to the attorney...this is like saying, if you do not ack
this letter in 20 days, then we are going to bypass the court
system, and go straight to judgement by default, and all this
done on a first class stamp...no verifications, no delivered
court summons, and without a judge...

btw: are retirement accounts such as IRAs protected
against judgements or levies?

[blondeinmn]

Maybe my explanation was a bit unclear. Service of a summons in Minnesota by first class mail is valid service if and only if you send back the acknowledgement. The plaintiff will file that paperwork with the court as proof of valid service. If you don't respond, it is not valid service. The plaintiff will then have to serve you personally. Service has to be performed by someone not a party to the suit. That person has to complete an affidavit of service, have it notarized and file it along with the suit. All of this information is available by doing a search for minnesota rules of civil procedure. Minnesota civil courts have a website that explains the procedures. Read them. After thoroughly reading and understanding the process, consult an attorney and pick his or her brain. I paid a collection attorney $150.00 cash (no taxes I suppose) for a hour and a half of his time to answer my questions and clarify some issues. He also outlined the collection process, tactics and strategy of most collection agencies. It's a poker game. Bluff with a summons and most people will panic and fold (pay). This doesn't mean you will never be sued. Avoiding judgement is a short term strategy, unless you plan on never owning anything or never making any money or dying within the next year. Avoiding judgements allows you time to plan your bankruptcy properly and legally, avoid aps and qualify for a chapter 7 ( if that's your chapter). Don't take my word for it or anyone elses on this forum or anywhere else. Some responses on this forum can be inaccurate or not pertaining to your situation. Do the research, talk to an attorney and not just a bankruptcy attorney. It was the best $150.00 I ever spent. Also, since you have a good chance of being sued, get assets out of your name if you haven't already. You can legally and safely do this before notice of a suit. If you do it after notice, you may be commiting fraud. Any transfer of assets may have an impact on your upcoming bankruptcy, so if you don't know what you are doing consult an attorney. I am not advocating fraud. What I am saying is fully fund retirement accoounts, educational accounts, fix up your house, sell a car you have non-exempt equity in and fix the roof. Document everything and when the time is ripe pull the pin and file chapter 7. This is proper and wise planning. Filing an asset chapter 7 is a waste. If your married and not filing jointly have your spouse hold any non-exempt assets is their name. Just be very cognizant of the look back periods in bankruptcy. This is possible as Minnesota is not a community property state. Don't be fraudelent, be aggressive. And don't be afraid about it. Be tough, informed and organized. If you are, I believe you will feel more confident and in control of the situation. Yes, it is possible to feel good about filing bankruptcy. Not because you are getting out of something or sticking it to the man but because you are dealing with a problem in a constructive manner.