Is filing for 341 meeting near Thanksgiving better?

[PaKettle]

My attorney seems to think so.
He said that instead of filing this week, as we had talked about, he thinks it would be better to try to schedule it so the 341 lands before the Turkey Day holiday. His reasoning is that things slow down, people aren't into working as much and the creditors are less likely to look for objections between Thanksgiving and Christmas, more likely to say "Oh, the hell with it! Let this one go!" so they can get back to planning their vacation or parties and what not.

Does anyone think this is a bad idea? Is there any downside?

I'm not really 2nd guessing my attorney, here, I'll probably go with what he says anyway, I'm just 1) looking for feedback on what others think, and if there is any downside to this; and 2) giving others the idea in case it is indeed a good one.

I was surprised that my attorney said that he felt that a couple of under-$8k balance transfers I put into my checking account back in late 06 could be a problem. I thought that anything over 6 months was pretty safe from objections. No?

So because of that, plus my mixed up social security number, he says that we should try to time it so that they are less likely to look for reasons to object.

[WantToBeDebtFre]

I'd go with whatever your attorney suggests. From what I've seen on this website every district can be very different and since the attorney has the past experience of dealing with that particular court he probably knows what to expect.

But I would think that creditors would have a hard time objecting to cash advances from 2006 at this point.

[Boscoe]

Pa, you sound like you are very worried about objections. This is normal, but can you let us know what are the circumstances and dollar amounts?

If not within the last 90 days, burden of proof is on the creditor. If the amount is below $2k, doubtful they would object. If over 6 months old, also doubtful. Can you provide particulars and maybe we can put your mind at ease?

That said, I agree with your attorney. Creditors should be less likely to object that time of year...

[SinkingFast]

I was surprised that my attorney said that he felt that a couple of under-$8k balance transfers I put into my checking account back in late 06 could be a problem. I thought that anything over 6 months was pretty safe from objections. No?

So because of that, plus my mixed up social security number, he says that we should try to time it so that they are less likely to look for reasons to object.

Just curious, but,.......... Are the advances from so long ago with one particular Creditor??

Did you not make any payments at all after the cash advances were taken?? Or,.......... Could be your attny knows that Creditor's Rep in your area is particularly aggressive.

I do remember seeing the SSN thing somewhere in the Code. About having the correct SSN on accts. I wish I'd book marked it for you. That's why you're getting static from all the attnys you Consult with about that issue.

[Lindsay]

I would think it definitely makes sense and I may try to schedule mine that way too. When does he suggest filing so the 341 is during the holiday period?

I'm afraid of objections too. My last balance transfer was at least 12 months ago, probably longer. I used 2 of my credit cards for living expenses in the past 90 days. Gas, groceries, utilities, auto insurance, shipping boxes for my eBay business, that sort of thing. The charges were under 2K total, but it still worries me. No luxury purchases or anything like that. I'm ultra paranoid though. I keep thinking about how they say you aren't supposed to make any charges once you decide to file BK and even though we hadn't made up our mind totally, I did sort of think that we may have to file when I made those charges. So I guess I feel sort of guilty about that.

But really, when I search the threads and various boards that deal with bankruptcy, I haven't seen too many objections at all. So it must be a relatively rare thing for creditors to object unless its something really major.

[jp2861]

When you say "burden of proof" what exactly are you saying? I'm assuming that they have to prove that the debtor took the cash with the intent to not pay it back. I think that would be nearly impossible to prove. My next question is what happens when a creditor does object. Does anyone know the process that takes place after the objection? Do they remaining uncontested debts continue to be discharged and the debtor then needs to work a deal with the objecting creditor. or, does the objection go to court for judgement processing?

Thanks!

Pa, you sound like you are very worried about objections. This is normal, but can you let us know what are the circumstances and dollar amounts?

If not within the last 90 days, burden of proof is on the creditor. If the amount is below $2k, doubtful they would object. If over 6 months old, also doubtful. Can you provide particulars and maybe we can put your mind at ease?

That said, I agree with your attorney. Creditors should be less likely to object that time of year...

[lrprn]

Does anyone know the process that takes place after the objection? Do they remaining uncontested debts continue to be discharged and the debtor then needs to work a deal with the objecting creditor. or, does the objection go to court for judgement processing?

The uncontested debts continue on to be discharged. The objecting creditor sends notice to the court about the objection and it's filed as a part of your case. You and your lawyer then talk over the objection and decide how you will reply. If your lawyer, and your trustee can't come to a decision or make a compromise, then the bk court judge will get involved and there will be a hearing where the judge will decide whether the objection has merit or not. Worst case is that the judge will find for your creditor and you'll have to pay back the disputed charges.

Do your best to keep this in perspective. The chances of getting a creditor objection in Ch 7 are very, very small.

[PaKettle]

Pa, you sound like you are very worried about objections. This is normal, but can you let us know what are the circumstances and dollar amounts?

If not within the last 90 days, burden of proof is on the creditor. If the amount is below $2k, doubtful they would object. If over 6 months old, also doubtful. Can you provide particulars and maybe we can put your mind at ease?

That said, I agree with your attorney. Creditors should be less likely to object that time of year...

My last purchase of a $1000 tv and a $450 camera (2 different cards) were in June, and we're not filing until October so those are 90 days and though I only made one payment on each of those accounts, I'm not really worried. If I have to pay them back, so be it.

The ones I'm worried about (I wasn't, until my attorney raised an eyebrow about them) are a couple of $5k and $7k (maybe $17k altogether) back in October thru December of 06. I "went kinda nuts" at that time, had offers sent to me in the mail and decided to take them up on their kind offers.

$7k of it went to pay dental bills and the rest just went into our bank account and was spent in various ways, I don't even remember, we just used it as extra money.

Originally my attorney said none of that should be a problem. But then when we signed on the dotted line he seemed to change his idea a bit and said it COULD be a problem, though probably not. I don't even see why he said it might, because I paid full minimum payments plus a little extra on those accounts up until I quit paying everyone in August, so that is like 7 to 10 payments if I took them out from Oct to Dec..

I can't see how they could object since I made all those payments and it was well over 6 months ago. Do they ever delve into what happened to those payments at the 341?

My attorney asked me and I said that I may have gambled away $5k or more of it. He said, "Hmmm, well let's hope they don't ask because when they hear "gamble" it sometimes causes problems."
That is not the impression I got here on this forum, so maybe he just knows that some Trustees or Creditors in my District are very anti-gambling and/or very anti-balance transfer.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I am concerned about objections because I know I just BLEW a lot of money that I should not have blown and I feel bad about it and wonder if it might come back on me. And if push comes to shove and they ask me what I did with the money I can either say "I don't know - I just spent it" or I can say I gambled a lot of it away. But I'm hoping no one asks!

[danaf]

Pa,

I believe I have over 35k with one creditor alone - all from balance transfers. I've considered tranferring some over to another creditor because I still always get offers in the mail but it's too late. I don't feel like having the clock start over again. I worry but I'm just going to put as much time inbetween as I can and hope for the best.

don't worry - I'm sure you will be fine.

dana

[PaKettle]

I would think it definitely makes sense and I may try to schedule mine that way too. When does he suggest filing so the 341 is during the holiday period?

I'm afraid of objections too. My last balance transfer was at least 12 months ago, probably longer. I used 2 of my credit cards for living expenses in the past 90 days. Gas, groceries, utilities, auto insurance, shipping boxes for my eBay business, that sort of thing. The charges were under 2K total, but it still worries me. No luxury purchases or anything like that. I'm ultra paranoid though. I keep thinking about how they say you aren't supposed to make any charges once you decide to file BK and even though we hadn't made up our mind totally, I did sort of think that we may have to file when I made those charges. So I guess I feel sort of guilty about that.

But really, when I search the threads and various boards that deal with bankruptcy, I haven't seen too many objections at all. So it must be a relatively rare thing for creditors to object unless its something really major.

Right, Lindsay, I think in your case you have nothing to worry about, those amounts as you note, are too small and they are not on any one big luxury item like my $1000 tv. What happened to me was that the straw broke our camel's back right after I bought that tv, and I almost even took it back, except it was such a hassle to hook it up and getting it working, I didn't want to do that.

As for timing it for Thanksgiving etc. my attorney said he would look at his filings on other cases and see what dates they were getting for their 341's and then he would use that to guage when we should file for mine. He mentioned that in our area 341's are being scheduled something like 18-24 days after filing. So he's going to try to pin it down from his other filers who he isn't so concerned about encountering problems.

I was not clear on exactly when he wanted to schedule the 341 but it seemed like he was shooting for maybe right before Thankgiving. I'm just leavng it up to him, I really think he knows what he is doing and is giving me good personal service. It's just that I always tend to want to get feedback from other people on things and I figure why not? I might learn something.

But as much as I want to not worry about any of this and just relax and have the attitude of "whatever will be, will be", I doubt if I can do that! But I'm going to try.

One thing my attorney did mention, and like I always say, "Take this with a grain of salt" because districts vary from one to another. But he said that it usually costs the creditor around $3500 for them to object. So they are very unlikely to object unless they can recoup more than $3500. So if you have a $7k cash advance or balance transfer into your account, they might fight it because they would more or less break even on that. But anything smaller they tend not to mess with. (I'm talking outside the 90 day before filing.)

I did have a friend who filed right before the law changed and he had a couple creditors come to his meeting because they were local stores where he had just bought furniture or whatever. The Trustee made him pay those accounts because he had gotten them within the 90 days before filing. Local creditors and store creditors like Circuit City and Best Buy etc. are supposed to be the most aggressive in objecting if the purchases were recent.

[SinkingFast]

Sounds like there's probably a couple of things going on, Pa.

One is your attny wants to caution you for "worst case scenario". He/She doesn't want to have an issue crop up and you not be prepared that it could, might, maybe happen.

The gambling thing,............ In BK Court,........... Debt is supposed to be Debt. No matter the source. All debt is supposed to be treated equal. With the noted Exceptions in the Code.

BUT,......... Some Trustees and Judges bring a personal bias to the table. Some don't like that people gamble and those cases get scrutinized more closely. That could be what "might" happen in your Court.

If the Trustee happens to ask a similar question about where all the money went, just say what you said here. Without mentioning the gambling part. "Medical and Dental bills and other necessary living expenses" type of response.

[PaKettle]

Thanks for the info!
I just hope I can do a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of 341 meeting:
they don't ask, so I don't have to tell!

Sounds like there's probably a couple of things going on, Pa.

One is your attny wants to caution you for "worst case scenario". He/She doesn't want to have an issue crop up and you not be prepared that it could, might, maybe happen.

The gambling thing,............ In BK Court,........... Debt is supposed to be Debt. No matter the source. All debt is supposed to be treated equal. With the noted Exceptions in the Code.

BUT,......... Some Trustees and Judges bring a personal bias to the table. Some don't like that people gamble and those cases get scrutinized more closely. That could be what "might" happen in your Court.

If the Trustee happens to ask a similar question about where all the money went, just say what you said here. Without mentioning the gambling part. "Medical and Dental bills and other necessary living expenses" type of response.

[ssdsco]

I read somewhere that it's not the actual gambling that concerns the trustee it's that gambling is a way people are explaining away cash advance money that's really under the mattress. Hence the trustee wants to start looking under the mattress.

[PaKettle]

I read somewhere that it's not the actual gambling that concerns the trustee it's that gambling is a way people are explaining away cash advance money that's really under the mattress. Hence the trustee wants to start looking under the mattress.

Aaaah! Good point. I never thought of that.
So I suppose gambling is not something you want to say unless you have substantial proof that you gambled it or have a gambling problem.
Well, I just hope they don't ask!

[JRScott]

I'd go with your attorneys suggestions.

He knows the system in his area better than we do. People are also generally more giving between those holidays, even ones that are not Christian, so he does have a point.