creditor objection one day before deadline

[Cali7]

My objection deadline was 12/3 and I checked PACER today to find an objection filed on 12/2. (It wasn't entered until 12/8).

I had about 70K in debt. Trustee filed no asset, so everything else is cool. I was making payments on all my cards until just before I filed. Just over a month before filing I had to have 2 emergency complicated root canals which sent me--w/ bad insurance--to an endodontist. Because of this I ended up putting $1600 on my Citibank card.

I didn't decide until after this to file, and I didn't visit a lawyer until after the charges. In the grand scheme of things this is little to pay compared to my original debt burden so I can live with whatever happens. When I filed the lawyer said it may be possible to fight an objection since it was 1. an unexpected emergency and 2. I was making payments.

The objection includes six pages of explanation about why I must have been intentionally trying to defraud them and that I had to have known I was filing. While these things are untrue, who can say how the judge will see it.

My lawyer is impossible to reach, so I'm just curious what happens now.

If there are no other objections is this the most that I could still be held liable for?

The objection noted trying to also get any legal expenses that they have by making the objection. Is this a normal request? Does the creditor ever actually get more than the ammount they object to?

What is the process for contesting this? What happens next?

How long does this usually take?

Does this mean that any discharge is put on hold until this is resolved. Or is this objection a separate matter that's not related to the discharge of the majority of my debt?

THanks in advance for any insight.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

My objection deadline was 12/3 and I checked PACER today to find an objection filed on 12/2. (It wasn't entered until 12/8).

I had about 70K in debt. Trustee filed no asset, so everything else is cool. I was making payments on all my cards until just before I filed. Just over a month before filing I had to have 2 emergency complicated root canals which sent me--w/ bad insurance--to an endodontist. Because of this I ended up putting $1600 on my Citibank card.

I didn't decide until after this to file, and I didn't visit a lawyer until after the charges. In the grand scheme of things this is little to pay compared to my original debt burden so I can live with whatever happens. When I filed the lawyer said it may be possible to fight an objection since it was 1. an unexpected emergency and 2. I was making payments.

The objection includes six pages of explanation about why I must have been intentionally trying to defraud them and that I had to have known I was filing. While these things are untrue, who can say how the judge will see it.

My lawyer is impossible to reach, so I'm just curious what happens now.

If there are no other objections is this the most that I could still be held liable for?

The objection noted trying to also get any legal expenses that they have by making the objection. Is this a normal request? Does the creditor ever actually get more than the ammount they object to?
What is the process for contesting this? What happens next?

How long does this usually take?

Does this mean that any discharge is put on hold until this is resolved. Or is this objection a separate matter that's not related to the discharge of the majority of my debt?

THanks in advance for any insight.

Did the creditor give an amount that they are objecting? Is it the $1600? This isn't even a luxury item and it's outside the 60 day presumption period so I can't imagine them proving anything. It's also a small amount for an objection.

It maybe a scare tactic they would use on a Pro se filer, but I'm surprised they are using this tactic on you when you had a lawyer. I thought that they would have to pay their own legal fees and if they can't convince the judge then they will pay your legal fees too. I can't imagine you having to pay theirs.

They can only object to what they feel you tried to "stiff" them out of and no more as far as I know. This won't affect your global discharge. Only VERY BAD THINGS like fraud such as hiding the BMW or yacht or transferring your house will deny everything.

Outside the presumption period your lawyer can negotiate reasonable terms usually 50% with no interest. If you feel that they have a strong case and a judge will buy their argument then reaffirming 50 cents on the dollar interest free would be the way to go.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[FoolAndHisMoney]

The objection includes six pages of explanation about why I must have been intentionally trying to defraud them and that I had to have known I was filing. While these things are untrue, who can say how the judge will see it.

If you don't mind me asking can you please give some examples of their explanation? I imagine that some of us here are VERY curious.

I know they usually see if you made large purchases or cash advances in the months prior to filing or they look for a sudden change in you charging habits, etc.


I was making payments on all my cards until just before I filed.

Making payments right up to the filing day looks kinda tricky. I guess it's possible for people to use up their savings account then file, they probably also feel that since you made payments until you filed, what changed? Did you lse any income? If you paid your credit card bills then you had disposable income. These maybe some things they are suspicious about.

Anyway, Thanks and good luck

[Cali7]

Did the creditor give an amount that they are objecting? Is it the $1600? This isn't even a luxury item and it's outside the 60 day presumption period so I can't imagine them proving anything. It's also a small amount for an objection.

They're specifically questioning $1,519.98. It's actually not outside the 60 day period though which is why I knew there was a possibility of this coming up from the start.

It maybe a scare tactic they would use on a Pro se filer, but I'm surprised they are using this tactic on you when you had a lawyer. I thought that they would have to pay their own legal fees and if they can't convince the judge then they will pay your legal fees too. I can't imagine you having to pay theirs.

According to the filed complaint it states that "including attorney fees, which the Defendant is obligated to pay under the terms and conditions of th eparties' credit card agreement."

Is that legal? Can really they stick me with the fees to pay for their objection? I don't understand why they didn't simply approach my attorney first to see if we wanted to settle.

If you don't mind me asking can you please give some examples of their explanation? I imagine that some of us here are VERY curious.

I know they usually see if you made large purchases or cash advances in the months prior to filing or they look for a sudden change in you charging habits, etc.

There were no changes in my spending habits and aside from this trip to the dentist, I didn't have any single high expense purchases.

Basically they took what was on the petition and used that to illustrate how I never had an intention of paying them. It's all based on assumption and it really makes very little sense. They claim that I was insolvant at the time that I made the charge when in reality I wasn't. My job situation had changed in a major way and I was led to believe that it would be improving. That didn't happen and I eventually got word that I wouldn't be able to return to my prior job situation. THAT is when I become insolvant. Hoping that my situation would improve, I continued paying my credit cards because I didn't want to hurt my credit. I cut out making other payments or spending other money so that I could make it through this down time with minimal damage to my credit. Unfortunately, it didn't work out the way that I had hoped, but I was never expecting to rip off Citibank or any other card.

I don't really like that all the assumptions in the complaint are written as fact. I guess that's just how it's done. But being called reckless and such doesn't really sit well with me. Yeah, I was really reckless when I had to have those two root canals.

[Lightning]

So you had absolutely no problems making payments on $68,480.02 of debt, but once $1,519.98 was added, you just couldn't make any payments at all? Gee, I wonder why they suspect fraud.

Give me a break. You knew you were in way over your head before your teeth went bad. You're just using that as an excuse for filing, and the trustee is smart enough to know it.

Of course you can be required to pay their court costs because fraud is a crime.

[StaciMM]

Here is my take on the situation...

Your charge is very close to your filing. It will be hard to claim that 30-45 days passed between the charge and your file date and you had NO CLUE that you were going to file BK. It generally takes 3-4 weeks at least to schedule an appointment w/ an attorney, discuss your situation, complete the paperwork, and for the attorney to file. I'm not saying you DID have intentions-just stating what I think is a logical conclusion to any 3rd party looking at the dates.

Citi probably didn't go thru your attorney for a settlement because they feel they have a good case. (Kind of like Law & Order. If they have the murder weapon, DNA evidence, an eye witness, and the only thing they are missing is a confession-why offer a deal?)

As to how someone could be making payments up until filing yet still not really have disposable income-that is an easy one. If you're not yet maxed out (and not EVERYONE is when they file) then you could put groceries, gas, etc., even utilities and more, on your cards.

As to putting you on the line for their legal fees... I don't specifically know how its handled by the BK court, but generally whoever loses in a legal matter is expected to pay the other's legal fees.

As to what happens from here-well, that is hard to say. The trustee may say that the charge was not a luxury and tell CITI too bad. On the other hand, the trustee could say you need to repay that amount & their legal costs. It should not affect anything else in your BK. You can probably make arrangements w/ CITI to pay it back monthly. You might even be able to make them an offer now-I don't know if that would work but its certainly worth a try. (Get something on your terms, rather than having to take theirs.)

Because of the time frame, everything (except the nature of the charge) is to the creditor's advantage. If it were a month or 2 older, that would be different.

[Cali7]

So you had absolutely no problems making payments on $68,480.02 of debt, but once $1,519.98 was added, you just couldn't make any payments at all? Gee, I wonder why they suspect fraud.

Give me a break. You knew you were in way over your head before your teeth went bad. You're just using that as an excuse for filing, and the trustee is smart enough to know it.

Of course you can be required to pay their court costs because fraud is a crime.

Wow, what nice helpful advice you have! Do you get a kick out of trolling the board to flame people? Despite the nastiness, I'll explain for the benefit of anyone else that's curious about my situation.

I am a writer and I work in a fairly volatile industry. When it's good, it's really good. When it's dry, it's a big hit. Aside from a school loan, which won't be discharged, I incurred almost all my debt during a period of two years where things were very dry. About 18 months ago, work picked up and I started doing really well again. I was able to start paying triple minimum payments on all my cards and was seeing my debt come down.

Several months before I filed, everything came to a halt again. I was getting work, but nothing like how it had been. I was barely able to pay the minimums...but I did, and was squeaking by cutting out other things. Work had turned around before and I hoped it would turn around again. Last July the opposite happened and work dried up completely. Right about at this same time I had a strong pain in my mouth so I went to the dentist. Turned out I needed two root canals. Since I had been making payments, I didn't have extra cash, so I used the card. Again, I hoped that work would pick up.

A few days later I found out that my most reliable client wouldn't be able to hire me any longer for budgetary reasons. I looked at the fact that I had 70,000 in debt with no foreseeable income in the near future and decided that I should consider filing. I spoke with an attorney a few days later and was advised that with the law changing I should file sooner rather than later if it's something I want to do.

I understand that I may have to pay back this specific debt. I understood it when I filed. That said, I never intended to work the system or fraud the creditor. Perhaps I can't prove it to the court, and that's fine, I can deal with that. Looking back I'm sure I should have waited another 30 days to file. To be honest I think waiting to work around the rules is more of a deception then an emergency situation that I'm not trying to hide, but whatever.

Anyway, it wasn't this specific debt that put me over the top. It was just badly timed with income issues. I don't really understand the need to lash out at me though because I'm also not claiming that the creditor shouldn't inquire about it or try to get their money. My questions mostly had to do w/ the process and the issue of legal fees.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Inside the presumption period you "may" have to pay back the $1,519.98. The presumption period just means that the court places the burden of proof on the debtor to explain that you had no intention of charging without pay. Because it was for a dental bill and not "goodies" you may have a convincing story for the judge. It actually seems like too small an amount for all the time they will spend trying to get it back.

Good luck whatever you decide. Thanks for sharing your situation with us.

[Cali7]

StaciMM-

Thanks for the reply. I've been kind of assuming most of what you're saying. And I understand now why the creditor would assume fraud. I don't know how I got my attorney meeting scheduled within a week and he had the papers together within another week. I guess he was just fast. Although so fast that he didn't tell me to wait until after the 60 day period.

Does the judge simply make a decision and that is that? Do I present my side?

[Lightning]

If you can't accept that spending more money than you earn is not a good thing, you will never be successful.

Since you can't manage an irregular income, then get a job with a regular income.

Good luck.

(Or you can continue to "write", spend more money than you earn, and blame everyone and everything else in site for your problems.)

[Cali7]

Inside the presumption period you "may" have to pay back the $1,519.98. The presumption period just means that the court places the burden of proof on the debtor to explain that you had no intention of charging without pay. Because it was for a dental bill and not "goodies" you may have a convincing story for the judge. It actually seems like too small an amount for all the time they will spend trying to get it back.

Good luck whatever you decide. Thanks for sharing your situation with us.

Thanks for the help. Yeah definitely not luxury items, lol. I went back and checked my citibank statement and the objected ammount is 100% from the dentist. If need be I have the paperwork to show it was for root canals too. (not whitening or something frivolous) If it turns out I need to pay it, that's fine. I just want this whole thing to be over.

[Lightning]

Brush and floss regularly. You're not going to be able to use credit to get your teeth fixed for quite some time.

[Cali7]

If you can't accept that spending more money than you earn is not a good thing, you will never be successful.

Since you can't manage an irregular income, then get a job with a regular income.

Good luck.

(Or you can continue to "write", spend more money than you earn, and blame everyone and everything else in site for your problems.)

Wow, you are an amazing human being. Really. All-knowing too. It's quite impressive. One day when I'm all grows up maybe I'll get to peek behind the curtain and see what it's like to live in perfect-land. Until then, thank you for letting me vicariously do it through you.

I imagine you must troll cancer message boards and tell people that their own poor decisions led them to become sick. Maybe you tell date rape victims that they should have thought twice about who they went out with. I'm sure there are endless opportunities out there on the Internet to get a real superiority boost. You'll find them all. I have faith in you.

[Lightning]

I just help people with money problems.

That's it.

Maybe one day you too can have some so you can help others.

If you want to play the metaphor game, then let's. Since you think it's okay to take money from someone without paying it back, you must also think it's okay to take someone's life and property without giving any compensation.

Or do you hide behind something called the "bankruptcy law"? Did you know that it was legal to keep slaves at one point? Eventually society agreed that it was wrong. Guess what? Society is starting to think that filing bankruptcy is wrong. How does it feel to be at the wrong end of the ugly stick?

[sunshine08]

YOU GO GIRTL!!
[SIZE="1"]
We all have done things for our own reasons, and we have to live with the consequences. Mr. Lightening - Dental advice was totally uncalled for. I guess lightening has never had a cavity etc. Please spare us the details on any medical or dental items, we can only take so much perfect. I also notice that you did not comment that when she had the money she paid more than the minimum.
Cali7, thank you for sharing your experience with us. Hope all works out for you and keep us posted. I think that this could go either way, mainly because of what you spent the money on and I also think it helps your situation that that is the pnly thing that you spent the money on. Did the trustee mention this at the 341? Evidently he wasn't concerned that this could have been fraudulant. Anyway, good luck.