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Is this legal?

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  • Is this legal?

    As you might know, I recently finalized my new auto-refi loan. While the loan was finalized, I made an additional payment to my old lender. However, the new loan-amount didn't change and the broker adjusted the pay-off down to what I owed after I made the payment.

    I was under the impression that I should get a partial refund from my loan broker. They received about $750 more from the new lender than they paid to the old one. I do believe that is a lot in "fees". In addition to that, fees are not mentioned in my loan paperwork or my application. Aren't they required by law to disclose these fees (if any) upfront?

    Here's the conversation I had with my CSR:


    Hi xxxx,

    I hope you are doing well! Meanwhile, my previous loan with my prior lender showed up online as paid out so I gave them a call to check out how much they received as pay-off. I was told that the pay-off amount was about $20,780 and that they were overpaid by about $30. So roughly, they received about $20,815 as payoff.

    My new loan, however, is $21,560 which leaves a difference of about $745.

    I think the fees for the new loan are $450 (loan-amount of $21,560 minus $21,400 which was the initial pay-off amount before I made the final payment plus $290 which were initially planned to be charged to my CC-account I provided).......sooooo...since my previous lender received $21,560 from my new lender, am I assuming correctly that I can expect to receive a check from you guys for about $295?

    Thank you in advance for your message!

    Regards,
    IBroke


    He replied:

    IBroke,

    There is NO extra money...That is why I never charged your card.

    Thanks,
    xxxx


    I replied:

    xxxx,

    That doesn't make any sense.

    You wanted to charge my card $290. I, however, made an additional payment to my old lender in the amount of $550. Since my additional payment clearly exceeded the amount you wanted to charge to my card, there must be money left because this additional money was neither paid to my old lender nor credited to my new loan. So what happened to it?

    There is a difference of about $745 between what you received from the new lender and what you paid to my old lender. No matter how I turn the numbers - based on the initial quotes, there MUST be money left. Additional funds simply do not vanish within 7 days. Granted, you didn't charge my credit card in the amount of $290 - but in return, you paid $580 LESS to to my old lender than initially planned - due to the additional payment I made.

    Honestly, I never understood why I would have to make a credit-card payment in the first place. You stated that this would be necessary due to the LTV-ratio. However, this value obviously didn't play a role when I should purchase an additional warranty. With that warranty, the LTV-ratio would have been much worse. I know exactly that the sale of these warranties are commission-based and that you have to make a living as well - but when it comes to the claim that the numbers all of a sudden "match up +/-0" after I made this payment and without the adjustment of any other factors that would make up for that, my "alarm-bells" are going off.

    If you are still convinced that there is no extra money, I request a detailed break up on how, when and to whom my new loan in the amount of $21,560 was distributed. A copy of your policies regarding your customary loan closing-fees would be helpful as well so that I can double-check that in writing with your office. Unless fees are randomly set by your company, it is virtually impossible that everything turned out +/-0. I'd also like to mention that there is no fee mentioned in my paperwork (lack of disclosure of fees) so I have my doubts that it is even legal to charge any in the first place. I would have accepted the previously quoted fee of$450 - no questions asked. But a sudden increase to $745 without any prior disclosure is very questionable and will result in further investigative action on my end. Hopefully, this can be avoided.

    Regards,
    IBroke


    So what do you guys think? Is this guy trying to get some $$ into his own pocket? Is it legal to collect and/or even increase fees without written disclosure?
    Last edited by IBroke; 03-21-2012, 01:03 AM.
    Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
    FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
    FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

  • #2
    UPDATE:

    Talked to that guy's supervisor. We agreed on a doc fee of $499 BUT I will receive a check from them for $240 which I indeed overpaid by making an additional payment. I bet I wouldn't have gotten a single dime without being so consistent and I'm sure that money would have ended "someplace" it shouldn't...
    Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
    FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
    FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good for you. One thing I've learned is to really pay attention to all of my financial transactions. I hate to think of all the money I wasted by not paying attention before.
      Case Closed > 2/08/2010

      Comment


      • #4
        Look at all our money in giveaways that our Government cannot account for. How do you lose billions and cannot find it?

        BTW Hi Mango. Been missing seeing you around. 'Hub
        If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BobMango View Post
          Good for you. One thing I've learned is to really pay attention to all of my financial transactions. I hate to think of all the money I wasted by not paying attention before.
          Me too!

          Comment


          • #6
            A couple of years ago, I simply would have said "what the he** - let's forget about it". But if my previous financial troubles and BK had a positive effect, it certainly was that I stopped wasting money. In the past, I was happy when I was able to spend a lot of money - today, I'm enjoying to get as much as possible with as little $$ as necessary. And honestly, what I'm doing now is much more fun.

            A couple of years ago, I probably wouldn't have used coupons at my local supermarket - today, I'm really happy to look at my shopping cart and the savings I made by focusing on coupons and special offers. It's one of my new hobbies..
            Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
            FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
            FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

            Comment


            • #7
              I look at refunds and overpayments as a matter of principle. I complained to a hotel in Florida because they charged me for parking when they said they wouldn't. Compared to the rate for the room, the parking at $17 for the one night, was almost negligible. However, it was the principle that they promised one thing and did another.
              Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
              Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
              Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


              I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                I look at refunds and overpayments as a matter of principle. I complained to a hotel in Florida because they charged me for parking when they said they wouldn't. Compared to the rate for the room, the parking at $17 for the one night, was almost negligible. However, it was the principle that they promised one thing and did another.
                Yeah, that was one major factor as well. I didn't want to appear as stupid recent BK-idiot how can't figure out a simple calculation...
                In addition, I'm sure that this is not the first time this guy wanted to get away with money that didn't belong to him. I mean, if I really have to pull off something like that but the customer shows me a detailed breakdown, I would take my last opportunity to make it appear as a mishapp... He, however, threatened to "unfund" my new loan and that I "could go back to my old lender"...as if I had a loan with HIM...
                Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
                FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
                FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

                Comment


                • #9
                  BTW, here's the final e-mail communication I had with this guy from Wednesday:

                  IBroke,

                  The fee was disclosed, at least twice. I will pull the tapes. Let's just unwrap this deal. I will unfund you can go back to your old lender. Then find a new lender. I will check on the process.

                  Thanks,
                  XXXX

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: IBroke
                  To: [email protected]
                  Sent: XXXXXX
                  Subject: Re: New Loan with XXXX

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: XXXX <[email protected]>
                  To: IBroke <[email protected]>
                  Sent: XXXXX
                  Subject: Re: New Loan with XXXX

                  IBroke,

                  We have a 499.00 doc fee that I disclosed several times and was clearly stated on the loan paperwork.
                  No, it is not stated in the loan paperwork. Please provide me with a signed copy of that document.

                  You also signed an authorization for payoff.
                  That is correct.

                  We paid that amount.
                  NO, you didn't! And that's the problem. The signed Authorization for Payoff clearly says "Payoff Amount: $21,400". You, however, only paid about $20,820 to my old lender. I attached a copy of of the Authorization for Payoff to this e-mail so that you can see for yourself.

                  Your rate was extreemly high with your old lender there is alway a per diem ($ amount per day that is charged) on a simple intrest loan. I did what I said I was going to do. I alway want a happy customer. I will work on a breakdown for you, from what I see so far there is no left over funds.
                  I know what you received from my new lender ($21,560) and I know what you paid to my old lender ($20,820) which leaves a difference of $740. If I indeed signed a document where the doc fee is clearly disclosed, Fleet Financial would still owe me about $240. If this doc fee was not disclosed in writing (and I couldn't find ANY document about fees), Fleet owes me $740.

                  Thanks,
                  XXXX



                  What a friendly service, right?
                  Last edited by IBroke; 03-23-2012, 02:52 PM.
                  Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
                  FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
                  FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would rather poke myself in the eye with an ice pick than have to buy a car. I HATE HATE HATE that whole process. If your not savvy, they will screw you. Good for you Ibroke! You go girl...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by df04527 View Post
                      I would rather poke myself in the eye with an ice pick than have to buy a car. I HATE HATE HATE that whole process. If your not savvy, they will screw you. Good for you Ibroke! You go girl...
                      Trust me, I'm soooo happy that this is over. But on the other hand, I might have used this ice pick to harm me and others if I would still be stuck with the initial 18.24% interest-rate..

                      Originally posted by df04527 View Post
                      You go girl...
                      Hahaha..I think I would have to spend far more than $240 to change my sex..
                      Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
                      FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
                      FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh whoops!! Too funny - we get "impressions" of people via these forums and I sure had you tagged wrong though - which is typical of me to do that. lol Sorry about that!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by df04527 View Post
                          Oh whoops!! Too funny - we get "impressions" of people via these forums and I sure had you tagged wrong though - which is typical of me to do that. lol Sorry about that!
                          LOL...

                          No problem. I guess my Avatar is partially to blame as well...
                          Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
                          FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
                          FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This was a refi? What's up with this 500 dollar fee? That's kinda nuts... so did they cancel your refi? Who was it with?

                            I would be going with a credit union if you aren't... I just refi'd my loan to a new CU at the end of last year and I'm down to a 4.75% rate.
                            BK Ch 7 Discharged 09/2009 | Anything I say can and should be used as friendly advice and sharing of experiences with an unbiased viewpoint.
                            Scores: EQ 745 EX 704 TU 710 as of 08/15/2012

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Amy26 View Post
                              This was a refi? What's up with this 500 dollar fee? That's kinda nuts... so did they cancel your refi? Who was it with?

                              I would be going with a credit union if you aren't... I just refi'd my loan to a new CU at the end of last year and I'm down to a 4.75% rate.
                              Yep, that was a Refi and the $499 was their "doc fee". The fee is charged by the broker, Fleet Financial, and my new loan is with NuVision Federal Credit Union.

                              They didn't cancel the Refi - as I assumed before, that comment was probably made out of frustration and a scare-tactic of the customer service representative I was working with. The supervisor I called was virtually on his knees, apologizing for the other guy.

                              I applied with my local CU as well. On a Friday, the lady I worked with told me I was approved. for 4.25% (4% with automatic payments) - and the SAME lady told me on Monday I was denied - and she didn't even remember talking to me before...

                              But coming from 18.24%, I'm happy with the 9%.
                              Filed CH7 9/24/2010, 341 on 10/28/2010, Disch.&Closed: 1/6/2011. FICO EX: 9/2: 672.
                              FICO EQ: pre-filing: 573, After BK Public Record: 568, 10/3: 673.
                              FICO TU: pre-filing: 589, After BK Public Record: 563, 9/2: 706.

                              Comment

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