Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as BKForum.com and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do:
BKFORUM.com (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto BKForum.com you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.


Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of BKforum.com.

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on BKForum.com are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

Undue Hardship

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Undue Hardship

    I am new to this forum. I really need some advice. I have co signed Private Student Loans for my son which total around $145,000. He is not paying on them and they are calling me night and day. I have not answered the phone, cause I have no idea what to tell them. I have spoken to a lawyer who said I do have a great case for a undue hardship. I have been on Social Security Disibility for 10 years now. My situation has not improved. He feels we could win an AP. The problem is it will cost around $7-10,000. He thinks we can go in and hit them with all the facts up front with the medical and financial and hopefully that would do it. The other option is to do nothing. They can't get blood from a stone. I also co signed a motorcycle loan for my son that it looks like he is having reposessed. If only I knew this would happen I never would have signed these loans in the first place. We are not on speaking terms, I have tried to reason with him.

    I appreciate any information anyone can give me. I don't know what to do next. Thanks so much in advance!!!!

  • #2
    from what i understand in mass....the student loan is viewed most likely by strength and size of the organization granting the student loans dictates how it is treated. and, there does exist a special exception for “undue hardship” cases.

    the standards for the bankruptcy courts undue hardship forgiveness for student loans has a bar set so high it might as well not even exist for the vast majority of people with both student loans and special hardships. an example i read about had to do with someone losing both their legs and they danced for their living. (sounds horrible), but they are usually ruthless.

    this is from an article october 3, 2010 dealing with hardship cases in mass:

    Bankruptcy Appellate Panel Gets Student Loan Test Right



    "While the Bankruptcy Code says that student loans may be discharged if the debtor shows “undue hardship,” the Brunner test provides that student loans may only be discharged if the debtor shows: (1) inability, at his current level of income and expenses, to maintain a “minimal” standard of living; (2) the likelihood that this inability will persist for a significant portion of the repayment period; (3) and the existence of good faith efforts to repay the student loans. In essence, it’s undue hardship on steroids—undue hardship in the most extreme. As I tell my clients, this really means you must be physically or mentally disabled to discharge your student loans. Not making enough money isn’t enough.

    But last week winds of judicial change blew out of the northeast. In a well-reasoned opinion, the First Circuit Court of Appeals Bankruptcy Appellate Panel rejected Brunner in the case of In re Bronsdon, instead opting to follow the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals’ “totality of circumstances” test.

    The issue before the Court was whether 64-year-old Denise Bronsdon could discharge $82,000 in student loans. Bronsdon, a law school graduate, unfortunately was unable to pass the bar exam and lives solely on Social Security. She also lives in her father’s den, unable to obtain her own home on her small income. As the Court noted, there was no way someone on Ms. Bronsdon’s income and at her age would pay back $82,000.

    But, as I’ve said before, owing student loans is like owing the mob. And this case was no different. The student loan creditor, Educational Credit Management Corporation, (“ECMC”) fought poor Ms. Bronsdon in the Bankruptcy Court, District Court, back in the Bankruptcy Court on remand, and then eventually all the way to the First Circuit Court of Appeals. And at each step along the way, ECMC fought with tenacity only Tony Soprano could rival.

    However, despite ECMC’s best efforts to keep Ms. Bronsdon in financial bondage, the Court rejected ECMC’s request for the Court to adopt Brunner and to deny Ms. Bronsdon discharge of her student loans. Instead, the Court, quoting two other Massachusetts bankruptcy cases opining that Brunner “tests too much” and was “overkill,” ruled against ECMC. The Court also stated that the good faith requirement of Brunner was “without textual foundation.” (In layman’s terms, that means it was just made it up.)

    The Court explained that it would instead follow the “totality of circumstances” test, which it summarized as follows:

    Can the debtor now, and in the foreseeable future, maintain a reasonable, minimal standard of living for the debtor and the debtor’s dependents and still afford to make payments on the debtor’s student loans?

    The Court further explained that “courts should consider all relevant evidence–the debtor’s income and expenses, the debtor’s health, age, education, number of dependents and other personal or family circumstances, the amount of the monthly payment required, the impact of the general discharge under chapter 7 and the debtor’s ability to find a higher-paying job, move or cut living expenses.” Essentially, the Court said it would examine the debtor’s circumstances and determine whether repayment would cause the debtor, or the debtor’s dependents, undue hardship. No more, no less.

    And in this case finding undue hardship was a no-brainer. In fact, the Court found that requiring repayment of the student loans might lead to Ms. Bronsdon becoming homeless. Given the facts of this case one wonders how ECMC believed that it had any good faith argument against allowing Ms. Brondson’s request to have her loans discharged. I’ll bet even Tony Soprano would have given her a break."
    8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

    Comment


    • #3
      I looked at this a while back for my own student loans after recently starting SSDI payments. It's a pretty bleak scenario. There seems to be some leeway if the loans were made through private lenders but if they are government guaranteed student loans it's really hard to do anything but pay them. Or maybe get a hardship deferrment.

      I saw numerous people write that it was infinitely more difficult to get student loans forgiven than it was to get approved for disability benefits (and we all know how miserable that can be). There weren't many success stories.

      To get the loans forgiven via disability hardship, there are application papers that need to be resubmitted every six months (I think I saw that this has to happen for at least three years) and they need to come from a licensed physician. I'm not sure how many physicians are going to stick their necks out for that or even have the time to fill out the forms and write letters every six months. It appeared that even just one missed 6-month recertification would be grounds for tossing the whole thing. Different lenders might have different processes, so I'm not sure if this is exactly what your lender would require. With government guidelines, there does seem to be a fair amount of similarity between different lenders' requirements. Keep in mind, this is all when working directly with the lender, not through a BK discharge process. It seems they're a little bit less defensive when you work directly with them instead tossing a lawyer at them, but that's just what I saw from different people's blogs.

      And the really icky part... disability checks can be garnished for unpaid student loans. The system appears to be favorably poised for lenders on this one. At bare minimum it could be a really long struggle against some long odds.

      Your situation sounds very difficult and I wish you all the best in getting through it. If you find the magic formula for success, I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum who could really use any insights you might gain. Best of luck to you.
      OK - from now on it's not a "Bankruptcy." It's a "Weight Loss Program." I'm in. Sign me up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Peeps View Post
        I looked at this a while back for my own student loans after recently starting SSDI payments. It's a pretty bleak scenario. There seems to be some leeway if the loans were made through private lenders but if they are government guaranteed student loans it's really hard to do anything but pay them. Or maybe get a hardship deferrment.

        I saw numerous people write that it was infinitely more difficult to get student loans forgiven than it was to get approved for disability benefits (and we all know how miserable that can be). There weren't many success stories.

        To get the loans forgiven via disability hardship, there are application papers that need to be resubmitted every six months (I think I saw that this has to happen for at least three years) and they need to come from a licensed physician. I'm not sure how many physicians are going to stick their necks out for that or even have the time to fill out the forms and write letters every six months. It appeared that even just one missed 6-month recertification would be grounds for tossing the whole thing. Different lenders might have different processes, so I'm not sure if this is exactly what your lender would require. With government guidelines, there does seem to be a fair amount of similarity between different lenders' requirements. Keep in mind, this is all when working directly with the lender, not through a BK discharge process. It seems they're a little bit less defensive when you work directly with them instead tossing a lawyer at them, but that's just what I saw from different people's blogs.

        And the really icky part... disability checks can be garnished for unpaid student loans. The system appears to be favorably poised for lenders on this one. At bare minimum it could be a really long struggle against some long odds.

        Your situation sounds very difficult and I wish you all the best in getting through it. If you find the magic formula for success, I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum who could really use any insights you might gain. Best of luck to you.
        or op could leave the country for 10 years....
        8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by benman65 View Post
          I am new to this forum. I really need some advice. I have co signed Private Student Loans for my son which total around $145,000. He is not paying on them and they are calling me night and day. I have not answered the phone, cause I have no idea what to tell them. I have spoken to a lawyer who said I do have a great case for a undue hardship. I have been on Social Security Disibility for 10 years now. My situation has not improved. He feels we could win an AP. The problem is it will cost around $7-10,000. He thinks we can go in and hit them with all the facts up front with the medical and financial and hopefully that would do it. The other option is to do nothing. They can't get blood from a stone. I also co signed a motorcycle loan for my son that it looks like he is having reposessed. If only I knew this would happen I never would have signed these loans in the first place. We are not on speaking terms, I have tried to reason with him.

          I appreciate any information anyone can give me. I don't know what to do next. Thanks so much in advance!!!!
          It is very difficult to win a hardship student loan case. You would have to prove that you can never work again basically. I do not think you should pay the attorney that much money to try to win a case that is very likely not to be winnable.
          You can't take a picture of this. It's already gone. ~~Nate, Six Feet Under

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by backtoschool View Post
            It is very difficult to win a hardship student loan case. You would have to prove that you can never work again basically. I do not think you should pay the attorney that much money to try to win a case that is very likely not to be winnable.

            basically...it's almost as difficult as if you went to school to be a dancer and actually, ( just the thought of typing this is terrible), one loses their legs and can never dance...

            that is about how difficult of a proof that is needed to win a hardship. it's a shame really.
            8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

            Comment

            Unconfigured Ad Widget

            Collapse
            Working...
            X