Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as BKForum.com and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do:
BKFORUM.com (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto BKForum.com you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.


Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of BKforum.com.

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on BKForum.com are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

Student Loan or Not A Student Loan?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Student Loan or Not A Student Loan?

    I took out loans to pay for most of law school. Upon graduating law school it is common for students to take out what is called a "bar loan." A bar loan typically is $15,000 to get you from graduation, through the bar exam, and to the start of your first legal job.

    From my reading of this portion of the Code and other related material, I would conclude that a bar loan IS dischargeable under Chapter 7 bankruptcy because the proceeds of such a loan are not paid to a qualified higher education expense.

    Does anyone have anything thoughts on this?

    My thinking is based upon this:

    1. Section 523(a)(8)(B) of the Bankruptcy Code (as revised effective 10/17/05) excepts from discharge “any other educational loan that is a qualified education loan, as defined in section 221(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986; incurred by a debtor who is an individual.”

    2. Section 221(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Service code defines “Qualified Education Loan” to mean “any indebtedness incurred by the taxpayer solely to pay qualified higher education expenses. . .”

    3. Section 221(d)(2) of the IRS Code defines “qualified higher education expenses” to mean “the cost of attendance (as defined in section 472 of the Higher Education Act of 1965, 20 U.S.C. 108711) at an eligible education institution. . . .”

    4. Section 108711 of the Higher Education Action of 1965, as amended (20 U.S.C. 108711) defines (in relevant part) the term “cost of attendance to include:
    (1) tuition and fees normally assessed a student carrying the same academic workload as determined by the institution, and including costs for rental or purchase of any equipment, materials, or supplies required of all students in the same course of study;
    (2) an allowance for books, supplies, transportation, and miscellaneous personal expenses, including a reasonable allowance for the documented rental or purchase of a personal computer, for a student attending the institution on at least a half-time basis, as determined by the institution . . .”

  • #2
    Yes, you are correct; also, on the tax side, you cannot deduct bar review courses as an educational benefit on your taxes.

    However, that is not the end of the story. You still need to run through the standard objection to discharge analysis under 523(a)(2)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by HHM View Post
      However, that is not the end of the story. You still need to run through the standard objection to discharge analysis under 523(a)(2)
      Just gotta say it - my thoughts exactly and what a way to pass the "character & fitness" requirement for any State Bar - take a loan after law school to help you live with no intention to repay. Wonderful. I don't represent creditors but would love to on this one.

      There, I feel better. Now I am going to sleep.

      Des.

      Comment


      • #4
        Just in case the OP is looking to file bk because of a medical catastrophe, or some other unintended personal disaster, I just want to say "Welcome to the Forum."
        There are two secrets for success in life:
        1.) Never tell everything you know.

        Comment


        • #5
          ...take a loan after law school to help you live with no intention to repay
          Am I missing something? The bar loan was taken years ago, I was employed by a large NY law firm, then was downsized in the recession, and I filed for bankruptcy protection recently (9 months after being laid off). How is it that that YOU would conclude there was no intention to pay? Fully two years have passed since the bar loan was issued in the spring of 2009.

          I am a little taken aback here. I was asking a simple question and Des. appears to be attacking my character, suggesting that she personally would like to represent my creditor in this case and further suggesting that I would likely have difficulty passing a "character and fitness" review. Again, Des. how could you possibly conclude there was an initial intent to avoid payment with the information I provided?

          I'm not sure if you're an attorney, Des. or if this is just what I should expect on this website. However, if you are an attorney your response is disappointing not because it doesn't glowingly provide me with a clean and optimistic opinion, but rather because it fails to recognize that you know that you don't know all the facts and yet you choose to attack me. I truly don't understand it.
          Last edited by DAE; 05-14-2011, 11:50 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            The above attack on the OP was inappropriate. The whole point of this forum is so that folks who are considering or undergoing the bankruptcy process can educate themselves about the law and plan accordingly. Insulting or attacking someone because of the kind of debt that they acquired, or their reasons for being in the financial position that they find themselves in, is the sort of thing that I would expect to see from the 14-year-olds at Yahoo Answers, not on a site like this.

            BTW, anyone who thinks that having a law degree is a ticket to the "big bucks" these days needs to actually research the issue, talk to some recent law grads, etc, before they shoot their mouth off. The supply of attorneys in this country exceeds the demand, and law schools keep cranking out new grads, largely because they have no incentive not to do so.

            To the OP: you are technically correct as to the status of your bar loan. However, if you took out this bar loan from the same lender from whom you received your other student loans for law school, it's going to be difficult to separate out the bar loan from the rest of the loans. And the lender will fight you all the way. I think that you are correct in your reading of the law, but get ready for a fight, that's all I'm saying.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry if I have offended. You, as an attorney, should have known to give information that would clarify what otherwise looks like a "lawyer" fresh out of law school trying to find a way to shaft his/her responsibilities. What is one (who has pretty much seen it all as it relates to bk issues) to expect when one reads a post that is replete with innuendo that all the poster is seeking is information on whether or not when he/she graduates law school and then takes out a "bar" loan that loan can be discharged. Now, had you give the details:

              1. Graduated years ago
              2. Just lost job with big (presumably high paying) law firm
              3. Can't find new job
              4. Unable to pay

              That would be different.

              Come on Counselor. You know, "garbage in-garbage out". Give us the facts of your situation and maybe we won't jump to a conclusion that you are trying to game the system.

              Des.

              Comment


              • #8
                Keith, thank you. And thank you to debee -- and to HHM who, while providing me information on possible opposition to my discharge, didn't suggest he knew more about my character than he does.

                Keith, the bar loan was issued by Citi Student Loans in the spring of 2009, has an entirely separate loan number, and was issued months after my final disbursement of qualified educational loans in Dec. 2008. What prompted this question (because it never occurred to me that a bar loan would be treated differently than other student loans) was that while visiting Citi's student loan website, that one loan...the bar loan...is inaccessible while the other loan is freely accessible. This led me to think that Citi might be looking at them differently. So I called Citi and asked the loan specialist whether it was Citi's general position that bar loans are discharged in bankruptcy (the assumption being that this is not their first rodeo with bar loans and bankruptcy). The specialist needed to consult with someone off line and when he returned to the phone he said he wasn't able to answer my question. Perhaps he couldn't find the answer or perhaps someone asked him not to entertain the question, I don't know.

                But again...thank you for your response.
                Last edited by DAE; 05-14-2011, 12:38 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You, as an attorney, should have known to give information that would clarify what otherwise looks like a "lawyer" fresh out of law school trying to find a way to shaft his/her responsibilities.
                  No, Des. don't turn this on me and suggest that if only I had been more upfront. I asked a simple question and you went nuts. Given the information I provided in the first post, there is NO way you can conclude whether I am 3 months out of school or 5 years. It was YOU that concluded I was only 3 months out of school (why not conclude it was 5 years?) If assuming one vs. the other makes a difference to your analysis you should have asked. When an attorney makes assumptions that help him arrive at a conclusion, he qualifies his opinion based on the assumptions he's making. That you would try to hold me responsible for your assumptions is ridiculous. So back up and take a breath before you attack someone. For instance, HHM provided a simple and to the point response...suggesting that the loan is dischargeable, but that I might look at opposition to such discharge. HHM didn't suggest that I had a character flaw, he just coldly provided me an answer and left the personal stuff aside.

                  Frankly, the fact that you would try to back away from your initial response by suggesting your misunderstanding, your reading of "innuendo", and your lack of restraint is MY fault underscores a lack of integrity. Seriously, if you have an axe to grind, please do it elsewhere.
                  Last edited by DAE; 05-14-2011, 12:52 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey DAE,

                    Just want to welcome you to the forum. Des is one of the most helpful people on this forum and normally, you certainly would have been met with a different kind of answer. It's actually very unusual for him or anyone to take on a negative tone to anyone here. This is an extraordinarily compassionate and supportive place and sorry if you got off to a bad start.

                    Forgive us this once and stick around--- and you will see.

                    Oh... and my dh is an attorney. That thing about the "big bucks".... yeah right. Not when lawyers are a dime a dozen, when real estate isn't moving, and when people can't even afford to get divorced.

                    Keep On Smilin'

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by keepsmiling View Post
                      Oh... and my dh is an attorney. That thing about the "big bucks".... yeah right. Not when lawyers are a dime a dozen, when real estate isn't moving, and when people can't even afford to get divorced.
                      I know a real estate attorney that is moonlighting as a singer and sound technician for a Blues Band....

                      DAE: welcome to the forum, and I also am sorry that you got off to a bad start.

                      Good luck to you!
                      "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

                      "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

                      Comment

                      Unconfigured Ad Widget

                      Collapse
                      Working...
                      X