Please Critique My Schedule J

[StartNew]

Hi Everyone,

First let me start off by saying awesome forum. I am filing Pro-Se and needed some expert opinions. I have read about 19 pages of this forum trying to educate myself thank god I did because until today I thought I was ready to file. A little background:

My husband is filing alone. We are a family of 5 from CT making 130K combined (110K husband & 20,000 me). I am being laid off in November so our income will be down to 110K/yr.

Rent or mobile home space rental:
1st mortgage: 1933
2nd mortgage: 764
Property tax (if not included in mortgage): 694
Homeowner's insurance (if not included in mortgage): 92
Electricity: 230
Oil: 400
Water: 45
Garbage: 21
Telephone: 30
Cell phone/pager: 155
Cable/satellite television: 115
Internet:40
Home Maintenance: 100
Food: 700
Household items (non-food items): 50
Hygiene supplies (tooth paste, toilet paper, etc.): 100
Clothing: 100
Dry cleaning: 150
Laundromat, detergent, softener, etc.: 20
Average medical and dental expenses: 20
Prescriptions and "over the counter" medications: 10
Magazines, periodicals & newspapers: 10
Recreation & entertainment: 100
Presents for holidays, birthdays, etc.:50
Life insurance (if not deducted from paycheck): 10
Auto Insurance: 202
Gasoline: 300
Tires: 30
Auto repairs: 50
Vehicle maintenance: 40
Parking: 35
Public transportation: 329 commutes uses train and car to get to train
Vehicle tax & registration: 40
ANY other tax: 21 (fire tax)
Vehicle installments: 610 (2 cars)
Other secured installments: 92 timeshareloan
Child care:900
Haircuts: 80
Tobacco: 170
School lunches: 80
Work lunches: 30
State Taxes owed 09 and 10: 276
Alarm: 30

Total: 9214
Income from Schedule I= 9330

Thanks so much guys.

[ValleYum]

Welcome to the boards!! Lots of help to be had here!!

Can you tell us what county in CT you live in? That way we can use the IRS Standards to compare your figures against.

[StartNew]

Can you tell us what county in CT you live in? That way we can use the IRS Standards to compare your figures against.

Yes I am sorry I live in Fairfield County which is pricey. Thanks so much.

[ValleYum]

You have $116 in Disposable Income (although I know the fact that you are non-filing plays into this I am not quite certain but I know someone will chime in about that part.) This amount of income typically will force a Trustee to try to convert your case to a Chapter 13; having an ironclad Schedule I & J will be crucial!!

Your 2 mortgages are more than the standard - so they are fine - they are what they are.

Taxes are what they are.

Homeowner's Insurance seems low to me as compared to the mortgage costs - maybe it is time to lower your deductible or increase your coverage??

The utilities are okay - hubby used to live in CT so I understand how high the oil bills can be.

Medical, dental, prescriptions and OTC seems LOW LOW LOW. IRS Standards for a family of 5 is $300!!

Food is low - Family of 5 is ~$850

I will be back in a bit with more - got to get hubby out the door for work.

[StartNew]

You have $116 in Disposable Income (although I know the fact that you are non-filing plays into this I am not quite certain but I know someone will chime in about that part.) This amount of income typically will force a Trustee to try to convert your case to a Chapter 13; having an ironclad Schedule I & J will be crucial!!

Your 2 mortgages are more than the standard - so they are fine - they are what they are.

Taxes are what they are.

Homeowner's Insurance seems low to me as compared to the mortgage costs - maybe it is time to lower your deductible or increase your coverage??

The utilities are okay - hubby used to live in CT so I understand how high the oil bills can be.

Medical, dental, prescriptions and OTC seems LOW LOW LOW. IRS Standards for a family of 5 is $300!!

Food is low - Family of 5 is ~$850

I will be back in a bit with more - got to get hubby out the door for work.

Thanks so much you are awesome.

In terms of prescriptions we don't really get sick and I only go to the doctor 2 times a year GYN and physical, kids only physical. my husband physical plus Gastro doc he pays for acid reflux pills only 10 dollar co pay for 90 day scripts. I am worried that once they look at my bank statements they will see that.

Food: I coupon and buy in an inner city where food is really cheap compared to my suburb. We minimize eating out since our budget is so tight. I guess I should double check this by looking at our bank statements.

MortgageL: HEL was not a luxury we have a 80/20 I know stupid but that was the only way to buy in the northeast.

The 116 left over I was being realistic because come November I will no longer have my job and I will be in school. I am looking to trim our budget by November including food, cell phone, everything pretty much. I am also worried the trustee will think we cannot keep our house without my income which isn't true We have about 64K in cc debt and I am trying to never ever be in this predicament.

Also I have a question the 276/mth expense in back taxes is because I am anticipating working out a monthly agreement with CT state taxes. Can I include this as an expense or as a future expense?

Again thanks I really appreciate it.

[ValleYum]

Ok, I'm back. Now to backtrack and ask a few other questions.

You husband is filing the BK only and is filing pro se, right? Have you guys read the NOLO Chapter 7 bankruptcy book? It is a inexpensive download (under $25) and is an invaluable tool. You can buy it here: http://www.nolo.com/products/how-to-...uptcy-HFB.html

When do you plan to file? It appears to me that you guys are just a bit (~$100) over the median income with your salary; so have you run the means test yet? An online means test calculator is here: http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/nolo/

Do you have any debt in your name only (school loans, credit cards, etc??) or are all your debts joint? Any reason why you aren't filing with him? If I had to guess why - based on your comments, I would say to be able to obtain med school loans.

Remember, the Means Test uses the national standards in certain places and your actual expenses for mortgages, secured loan payments, etc. Very concrete.

The Schedule I & J are forward looking - now that you don't have all the crushing CC debt, etc. what would you spend? The Trustee isn't going to do a forensic audit of your bank statements unless something on your petition or schedules warrants a second look - they simply don't have the time. So you keep your expenses at or slightly under standards on Schedule J and you only worry about proving the expense if you are OVER the standards - like mortgage payments and heating oil (which I know is a CT thing and the Trustees there shouldn't blink at it).

Sooooo... RE your responses to the first part of my critique:

Realistically, once you are in Med School will you have time to coupon and shop around to keep your grocery bill low?

So, you don't buy band-aids, tylenol, Neosporin, alka-seltzer, pepto bismol, theraflu? One huge family round of the flu can be a budget destroyer. One broken bone. No braces or dental work that you foresee or have put off? I, personally, would definitely bump up your amounts.

You want to see your income on Schedule I less your expenses on Schedule J be as close to zero as possible. Most people are well into the negative numbers. Ours was -$800!! You want to have your numbers be bulletproof but you want to have enough 'play' in the numbers that you can increase (the ones under national standards) so if the trustee disallows or lowers a number it will not give you enough disposable income to be pushed into a Chapter 13. As little as $118 per month can put you there!!

More thoughts - next post!

[HHM]

Filing Pro Se would be a colossal mistake, you are over median. Schedule J, although important, is not really the issue. You have the money to pay for an attorney, BE SMART and get one.

[StartNew]

Filing Pro Se would be a colossal mistake, you are over median. Schedule J, although important, is not really the issue. You have the money to pay for an attorney, BE SMART and get one.

We do not have the money for an attorney trust me. The cheapest attorney wants to charge me 2800 dollars. We are in overdraft right now and I owe a 2000 dollar deposit for school. The mean in my county is a joke since I live amongst the upperclass and millionaires. My quarterly taxes of 2108 are due so I am going to file pro-se since I am over the median but as you can see have a lot of expenses. I appreciate your opinion though.

[HHM]

Let me blunt, not affording an attorney is a "choice", (only unemployed people, with NO income and NO savings cannot afford an attorney). You have the income to afford one, you are "choosing" not too. Let's just hope that choice doesn't end up costing your thousands of dollars more if your bankruptcy goes sideways.

Also, the fact that the cheapest attorney wants $2,800 to handle your case, should tell you something about what you are up against.

As for my opinion, I have over 12,500 posts on this forum...some people think my opinion actually means something

Here is the reality check, you are planning on quitting your job...why are you are working in the first place is a financial mystery, you gross $20K per year, yet you pay $10,800 in child care, and between taxes, transportation, etc, I doubt your true net income is positive. It is not going to take much for the trustee to push you into 13, working or not, tobacco, dry cleaning, timeshare, presents, landline (because you have cells), are all grey area expenses, if objected too, would put you in 13, not to mention the fact that you are, in fact, over median, even without your income. The presumption of abuse WILL arise in your case...you still need to somehow, pass the means test, showing no disposable on J yet showing DMI on part II of the means test may not be enough. You need to get the means test in order if you want to have any shot at keeping this a chapter 7.

[StartNew]

I did pass the means test using the IRS allowances and excluding my own student loan payments which I thought were not allowed. I never said I did not value your opinion that is why I am here, but I can disagree. I was being conservative with my expenses in schedule J because I thought I should. Thanks to ValleyYum actually helping me she has given me some tips. I really don't think I need to justify to you why we cannot afford and attorney but we cannot. Also your comment about the amount lawyers are charging here has nothing to do with my case but the fact that they are taking advantage. These quotes were given to o me over the phone. I'll let you know how it goes but I believe I can do this. If you want to help me great if not that I also fine.

Either way I am open to any suggestions.

Btw I not quitting I am being laid off in November

[IamOld]

startnew if I may - the atty I and spouse have is EXPENSIVE - we too live in a VERY VERY expensive area of the country. Long story short - fee for spouse over $3k, mine just under $3K.

I take my hat off to the brave souls who do this themselves - as a few people here (and elsewhere) could attest, I was (and still am) a nervous wreck...I wouldn't even know how to do this w/out an atty. HHM is right - just because you are over the median doesn't mean that you don't qualify for Ch 7, it can, though, mean that you need to have an atty by your side who knows...how to do things, what the local trustees/BK courts look for, understand, want, etc.

I wish you and your family all the very very best!!!! If you can...try to get an atty...

I did pass the means test using the IRS allowances and excluding my own student loan payments which I thought were not allowed. I never said I did not value your opinion that is why I am here, but I can disagree. I was being conservative with my expenses in schedule J because I thought I should. Thanks to ValleyYum actually helping me she has given me some tips. I really don't think I need to justify to you why we cannot afford and attorney but we cannot. Also your comment about the amount lawyers are charging here has nothing to do with my case but the fact that they are taking advantage. These quotes were given to o me over the phone. I'll let you know how it goes but I believe I can do this. If you want to help me great if not that I also fine.

Either way I am open to any suggestions.

Btw I not quitting I am being laid off in November

[StartNew]

Thank you I am not rattled easily so I am willing to take the risk. Plus like I said I did pass the means tests. Median incomes do not tell the entire story. The assets I have I owe on and my home is underwater like many others.

[IamOld]

Startnew, I think I need to borrow your backbone!!! You're quite right about the median, but...like I said, I do not have your backbone :-)

Thank you I am not rattled easily so I am willing to take the risk. Plus like I said I did pass the means tests. Median incomes do not tell the entire story. The assets I have I owe on and my home is underwater like many others.

[StartNew]

I am sure you do for other I things maybe not for this. I will admit I am strong willed. Like ValleyYum said many others have done it so I believe I can. Now I think I am extra motivated in achieving it since I feel like I am being dared at this point. Lol j/k of course

[IamOld]

I am sure you do for other I things maybe not for this. I will admit I am strong willed. Like ValleyYum said many others have done it so I believe I can. Now I think I am extra motivated in achieving it since I feel like I am being dared at this point. Lol j/k of course

My best wishes to you!!! I just don't deal well with very personal issues for myself...