341 Hearings - I observed 35 of them - here are my notes

[gman]

and, frankly, after looking at this means test...i have to honestly say the court had to consider much more than these numbers i just figured out for that time.

and once again...about the cc debt..i do know that although it was argued, it really didn't matter because of our situation...it wasn't a cut and dry one. it was complex with tons of documents to supply our position.

It sounds as if your strategy was to dump as many expenses into the Means Test as humanly possible - and force the Trustee to try and get rid of them one by one.

Do you have any idea what your final DMI was on your Means Test? It would be on Line 50.

Also - were you able to find your amounts for LINES 42, 43 and 44?

I actually like your strategy as opposed to be ultra-conservative.

[offthewall]

gman:

EXCELLENT!!! Well done!! Thank you for posting your hard work here....so very helpful to hear all of the details.

You are very wise for sitting in on the 341's. I have no doubt you have a great future ahead of you with this kind of attention and diligence! Looking forward to following your progress throughout your discharge and maybe even beyond!

[tobee43]

and, frankly, after looking at this means test...i have to honestly say the court had to consider much more than these numbers i just figured out for that time.

and once again...about the cc debt..i do know that although it was argued, it really didn't matter because of our situation...it wasn't a cut and dry one. it was complex with tons of documents to supply our position.

[tobee43]

What were the amounts for LINE 28, LINE 42, LINE 43 and LINE 44?

however, in reviewing our district....line 28....ZERO....i'm looking up the means test now to see if can remember what we put in lines 42, 43 and 44...i do know we were over the min. of the means test which is what i thought...but not only is each district different here, but each county as well...so what may apply to us, may not apply to others.

[gman]

i don't use pacer...but i have a copy of the petition....right here....which line do you want me to check out??

What were the amounts for LINE 28, LINE 42, LINE 43 and LINE 44?

[tobee43]

I would think your attorney might still have a copy of your entire filing which includes the Means Test OR you can always see your actual electronic filing online (for only 8 cents a page) at PACER.

i don't use pacer...but i have a copy of the petition....right here....which line do you want me to check out??

[gman]

i'm rumbling through the paperwork and can't even find the means test...since it was done so long ago...remember we waited almost 2 years to file.

so i can't even locate it...also everything was done electronically....so it's all on pdf files...i have looked and never label it correctly...if i come across it i will let you know which line it was listed on.

If you do happen to find this information, please do post it! It would be HUGE in my situation to make my case a SLAM DUNK, and I'd expect many others would benefit from your specific situation.

I would think your attorney might still have a copy of your entire filing which includes the Means Test OR you can always see your actual electronic filing online (for only 8 cents a page) at PACER.

http://www.pacer.gov/findcase.html

[researchnerd]

Wow...time for an episode of As The World Shrinks. DH and I had our Ch7 341 yesterday in Atlanta -- you must have observed us! We were in the morning session. This was our second 341 so we knew what to expect, and this one was even easier and quicker than the Ch13 hearing.

We are over the median but have negative DMI due to DH's high alimony and my student loans. The Trustee asked our appearance attorney whether he had seen an email from the US Trustee to our attorney requesting additional information. He hadn't, so the Trustee let him look at it for a minute. After the 341, the appearance attorney reported that they have requested bank statements and additional tax returns for a certain time period, but didn't remember what that was. Unfortunately email requests don't show up on PACER, and I've been trying to get specifics from my actual attorney but he hasn't replied yet.

[tobee43]

The only thing in your synopsis that I find odd is that out of 35, no one said they anticipate a tax refund?

well, i can't speak for the 35 that gman saw...but..yes, we did indeed have a refund, and it was quite a large amount. we were advised by our atty to spend it immediately which we did...it never came up at the 341...and it was close to 10k

[tobee43]

i'm rumbling through the paperwork and can't even find the means test...since it was done so long ago...remember we waited almost 2 years to file.

so i can't even locate it...also everything was done electronically....so it's all on pdf files...i have looked and never label it correctly...if i come across it i will let you know which line it was listed on.

Really????? Credit card payments are never included in the schedules as expenses. After all, they are going to be discharged and not something one would have as an expense going forward.

well, let me put this even in a "better" light...we had so many expenses it really didn't even matter. so it was only one fraction of the equation that made our numbers work....as well as an absolutely EXCELLENT atty...(for once!)

[SMinGA]

I can understand the logic behind that argument - the means test is about whether or not there is a presumption of abuse. If you're paying the credit cards, it limits your budget and in some situations creates a cycle of charge/pay down/charge again.

But that is just the means test - not schedule J. Or was your atty include there also?

when the trustee's office rec'd our petition they argued that we can't count our cc payments...our atty argued well, then of course who would ever have to file bk if they didn't factor in that amount....somehow he got it counted in, while the trustee's office finally gave in. this ALL happend prior to our 341....by the way.

[SMinGA]

Personally, I always file federal as soon as we have W2s, etc. But don't rush to file state. We normally end up about even for state. Have not filed this year yet actually - need to print the forms and fill them out I suppose. Just not in a rush for the $10 refund!!

But I know my atty will require we give him copies of federal & state (already filed)...

The only thing in your synopsis that I find odd is that out of 35, no one said they anticipate a tax refund? I would think based on some having EIC or child tax credits, there would be some to get refunds. Even if having none withheld now...

The debtors who showed up without having filed a 2009 Tax Return started off on the wrong foot with the Trustee (see above.)

The only ones who got a "pass" had little (and I mean little) or no income. The ones who had not filed had their cases rescheduled on the spot for a later date.

Simply put: It definitely seemed like having a 2009 tax return filed and given to the Trustee was a "requirement" in the Northern Georgia district.

[gman]

Really????? Credit card payments are never included in the schedules as expenses. After all, they are going to be discharged and not something one would have as an expense going forward.

What district are you in????

tobee has stated he/she will not disclose his/her district.....which is OK by me because I am a fully believer in privacy.

One question for tobee though:

What LINE on the MEANS TEST did your lawyer include these payments?

[newbie2]

when the trustee's office rec'd our petition they argued that we can't count our cc payments...our atty argued well, then of course who would ever have to file bk if they didn't factor in that amount....somehow he got it counted in, while the trustee's office finally gave in. this ALL happend prior to our 341....by the way.


.

Really????? Credit card payments are never included in the schedules as expenses. After all, they are going to be discharged and not something one would have as an expense going forward.

What district are you in????

[tobee43]

yes, very much so. after they factor back not paying the cc's which my atty argued..and won...

Question: Can you elaborate in detail on this? I am very familiar with the Means test (more than I ever planned on being) and would love to know where it came up.

when the trustee's office rec'd our petition they argued that we can't count our cc payments...our atty argued well, then of course who would ever have to file bk if they didn't factor in that amount....somehow he got it counted in, while the trustee's office finally gave in. this ALL happend prior to our 341....by the way.

bank statements...since we had auto deposit they also acted as our "pay" stubs...3 years back taxes...contribution receipts since ours where quite high....copies of all deeds, trusts... and the like.

Wow. All debtors I spoke to were only asked for 1 month of bank statements and their 2009 tax return. Now, for all I know, none of them needed to pass the Means Test and this is why they had to cough up next to nothing. Time will tel

we only needed to provide 6 months of bank statements...and pay stubs..ss...pension...unemploy ins. etc....the 1040's it was 3 years for us....but then remember i did overkill so there was absolutely NO question as to why we were filing...first it started with a small pay cut...then it went to 1/3 of the salary...we wanted that to be shown in documentation...which we did by the decrease over the past 3 years that reflected those financial changes. we supplied them without them asking...but found out later via the trustee's office they greatly appreciated us supplying them with the info...so they wanted them anyway. it was a proactive move on our part.
since we knew there may be questions.