341 Hearings - I observed 35 of them - here are my notes

[gman]

yes, very much so. after they factor back not paying the cc's which my atty argued..and won...

Question: Can you elaborate in detail on this? I am very familiar with the Means test (more than I ever planned on being) and would love to know where it came up.

.as well as our district did not include unemploy insur payments which were over 3k monthly...but atty argued they were only temp...many districts still count the income and pull you into a 13. we did not hide a dime.

I researched this in my district and found out that there is a case where unemployment income was included in Schedule I. I did not find anything for the Means Test - but am very concerned it is included here as well. I do agree it is a district by district decision from what I can see.

bank statements...since we had auto deposit they also acted as our "pay" stubs...3 years back taxes...contribution receipts since ours where quite high....copies of all deeds, trusts... and the like.

Wow. All debtors I spoke to were only asked for 1 month of bank statements and their 2009 tax return. Now, for all I know, none of them needed to pass the Means Test and this is why they had to cough up next to nothing. Time will tell.

I did note you did not have to cough up "bills" / receipts for food, daycare, utilities, etc. and other possible questionable expenses.

Question:Was this indeed the case?

I have just started collecting ALL of these recently just in case. I will likely only have 45 days worth when I file. Hope that will suffice.

[tobee43]

joe...i think the more people that answer that question the MORE help it is to everyone!!

so we were BOTH over the median income for our areas and it did not prevent us from filing chapter 7.

i think chapter 13 is designed to kill people!! except the BANKS and the ATTY's who changed the laws to get a large chuck of one's money!

[ccsjoe]

Question: Were you over the median income for your area (and thus had to go through the Means Test)?

Not sure if you're asking only tobee, but I'll chip in. Yes, over means by 16K, completed and passed means test DMI positive $1.89. DMI positive in Schedule J $31.48.

Question: What exactly did they ask for in terms of "documentation" prior to the 341? I've been trying to figure that issue out - especially for people who must pass the Means Test.


I provided last 2 years tax returns, both state and fed, last 3/4 months bank account statements, last available statement for any other miscellaneous accounts, even if exempted, such as HSA or FSA, 401K, etc. Also provided last 7 months pay stubs. and will provided updated bank statements and pay stubs to cover the filing date.

These were requested by my attorney indicating that the trustee would probably not even want these.


Even when I file on Oct 1 my last 6 months' average income will be over the median income for my state.

However, in a strange twist of fate, the fact I owe a good amount of back taxes will help my case and make me qualify. The back taxes show up as a monthly secured debt and pump up my expenses so I show little to no DMI on the Means Test. Being currently unemployed I can show very little income on the Schedule I - so meeting that part of "qualifying" has not been my top concern. My concern has been, and continues to be, the Means Test.

I also owe a wholesome amount of back taxes and that helped us qualify for means testing purposes!

Good luck, hope these answers help although not same district.

[tobee43]

Question: Were you over the median income for your area (and thus had to go through the Means Test)?

yes, very much so. after they factor back not paying the cc's which my atty argued..and won....as well as our district did not include unemploy insur payments which were over 3k monthly...but atty argued they were only temp...many districts still count the income and pull you into a 13. we did not hide a dime.

Question: What exactly did they ask for in terms of "documentation" prior to the 341? I've been trying to figure that issue out - especially for people who must pass the Means Test.

bank statements...since we had auto deposit they also acted as our "pay" stubs...3 years back taxes...contribution receipts since ours where quite high....copies of all deeds, trusts... and the like.

[ccsjoe]

gman, this is awesome info. Thank you for investing the time not only to go but also to post!!

If I can take time off of work I will try to do the same for my district. I suspect there are quite a few people from my district on this board.

[gman]

we were a 7...and prior to our 341 provided the court with an overkill of documents supporting our position.

Question: Were you over the median income for your area (and thus had to go through the Means Test)?

Question: What exactly did they ask for in terms of "documentation" prior to the 341? I've been trying to figure that issue out - especially for people who must pass the Means Test.


Even when I file on Oct 1 my last 6 months' average income will be over the median income for my state.

However, in a strange twist of fate, the fact I owe a good amount of back taxes will help my case and make me qualify. The back taxes show up as a monthly secured debt and pump up my expenses so I show little to no DMI on the Means Test. Being currently unemployed I can show very little income on the Schedule I - so meeting that part of "qualifying" has not been my top concern. My concern has been, and continues to be, the Means Test.

[tobee43]

The debtors who showed up without having filed a 2009 Tax Return started off on the wrong foot with the Trustee (see above.)

we brought ours...but were never asked at all to produce anything??? i have heard of districts that the trustee asks every single person filing???

i wonder if that's a difference between a 7 and 13??? we were a 7...and prior to our 341 provided the court with an overkill of documents supporting our position.

[gman]

One note - I am in the N GA district also - I thought it was required to have tax returns filed. Guess it is just my atty's requirement.

The debtors who showed up without having filed a 2009 Tax Return started off on the wrong foot with the Trustee (see above.)

The only ones who got a "pass" had little (and I mean little) or no income. The ones who had not filed had their cases rescheduled on the spot for a later date.

Simply put: It definitely seemed like having a 2009 tax return filed and given to the Trustee was a "requirement" in the Northern Georgia district.

[tobee43]

Never thought about this - but perhaps sitting in on a day of 341's is a novel way to find an attorney? You can sort of see a portfolio of their work.

SM GREAT thought!!!!

[SMinGA]

Great info. I suppose expenses are questioned more in a ch. 13. In theory, anyone w/ an attorney should not file a ch. 7 if they have have DMI for a 13. (Remember, I said 'in theory'.)

Never thought about this - but perhaps sitting in on a day of 341's is a novel way to find an attorney? You can sort of see a portfolio of their work.

One note - I am in the N GA district also - I thought it was required to have tax returns filed. Guess it is just my atty's requirement.

[gman]

This is great advise everyone filing pro se should do this. The fact that you took the initiative to sit through 341 hearings tells me that you will have no problems with your BK.

Thanks for the insight I am going to do the same thing and take notes.

Just make sure you call your courthouse and ask when the Chapter 7 - 341 hearings are scheduled. Mine were on a different day than the Chapter 13s.

Also - do you mind posting your observations and the district you are in after you go and observe.

I can tell you the time I spent was literally worth $1000+ to me. Even if I were hiring a lawyer, I'd get a chance to see how they "perform" and even ask their current "customers" how they were treated. Debtors I sat next to and saw in the hallway outside the room were very open to conversations.

[strummerfan]

This is great advise everyone filing pro se should do this. The fact that you took the initiative to sit through 341 hearings tells me that you will have no problems with your BK.

Thanks for the insight I am going to do the same thing and take notes.

[azballer]

Awesome information! My wife and I will be filing in the Northern GA District in October or September. This is exactly the kind of post that I have been searching/waiting for on this forum. Wouldn't it be great to have the morning Trustee as your lawyer? Thanks again for the great info.

[tobee43]

Question: Did you have a new job or a job offer by the time of your 341?

no...we were both unemployed and on ss, pension and unemployment, but both had 40-50 years worth of employment history behind us.

Question: What exactly were you asked and how did you respond?

are you working?...no...what do you do for a living?.....told them...and she, the trustee responded, and i said this in another post..."i understand, and you will NOT be finding a job anytime soon either!".

Question: What district are you in?

i rather not say...LOL!! we r still in hiding...LOL!!!

[gman]

we were asked about employment....because of job loss

Question: Did you have a new job or a job offer by the time of your 341?

Question: What exactly were you asked and how did you respond?

Question: What district are you in?