What does this mean? Not reasonable and necessary?

[jnjw]

Another one of the trustee's objections is that one of our secured payments that we have on the means test is not a reasonable and necessary expense.

So what does that mean? She wants us to direct that amount of our secured payment to the plan instead????

[krielly]

What is the payment for?

[jnjw]

An above-ground pool and heater that we financed through Wells Fargo almost 2 summers ago. The payment amount is not even correct on our paperwork. Our attorney listed $64.35/mo. and that's what the trustee stated in her one objection - $64.35. (It's actually $80 and we owe, I think, $3300 or something around that).

So does that mean she wants us to surrender the pool and heater to Wells Fargo or what exactly does she want us to do? If we don't pay for it, they will somehow come get it, I am assuming. It's the only luxury item we have that is a secured debt, but I don't suppose there is anything I can do about it if she wants us to give it up?

Thanks in advance.

[krielly]

I'm no lawyer, by any means, but I HIGHLY DOUBT that they will expect you to surrender the pool. It's not exactly an asset they can easily liquidate (particularly when its 2 years old).

My suspicion is that what this means is your chapter 13 payment will end up being increased by that amount each month. In other words, it will not be an allowed budgetary amount is all. You are fortunate that the payment is rather small, so I'm sure you can tighten your belt a bit to be able to afford the payment regardless.

Again, I'm no attorney, but that's what I would see happening.

[jnjw]

Well, that's what I was wondering - I mean there's like 13,000 gallons of water and I have no intentions on emptying it. If she or WF want to come get it, fine, but I won't do anything to help them get it out of here.

Sorry, I'm just upset and need to vent, I guess. She's also objecting to a lot of other things, including the length of our plan and the % payback, and I'm just really, really angry all over again and just, I don't know, not feeling all warm and fuzzy about any of this right now.

[krielly]

Understandably so.......
I remember the stress all too well. A lot of it has to do with the "unknown" of everything right now.
It's always harder to deal with when everything remains undecided and up in the air.
Do you have an attorney? What does he/she have to say about the objections?
Hang in there. We're all here for you. Venting is fine!!!!! Vent away!!!!!!!!!

K

[jnjw]

Yep, and as soon as I saw that (even though he had just told me last week to STOP reading Pacer because I freak out...lol), I called him and left a message that I had just read Pacer again (so sorry!) and that the trustee is "objecting all over the place." About 15 minutes later his receptionist called and said, "Yes, Mr. X said he saw those objections. He looked at them quickly. He doesn't think anything it is going to be that bad, but he hasn't had time to really look into them. He will look into them and call you on Tuesday and answer all your questions."

Yeah, well, extending this plan from 3 years to 5 years sure as heck sounds bad to me! Her taking the tax refund we so desperately need sounds pretty bad to me as well! Her wanting an extra $65 a month sounds bad to me because our means test is not reflective of our actual expenses (that truly are reasonable and necessary! the pool was the only luxury item! lol) and we're barely making it as is. Me having to send my bank statements to that woman every month for the next 5 years doesn't sound all that great to me either, let alone this income/expense report I have to take my time filling out and making copies of (I mean ink and paper DO cost money!) every single month!

And to top it off, I don't figure she's done objecting in any way, shape or form. I have read other cases of hers on Pacer - this won't be the last we hear from her. I guarantee it.

UGH! Thanks for listening! I try venting to my family, but they don't understand because they've never been through it. I'm just really angry is all. I mean to object over $65???? Good grief.

Well, I KNEW we were in trouble the day of our 341. We listened to our trustee having a little chat with 2 of the other attorneys in the room. It seems that she is the trustee over a debtor who recently won a lawsuit that had been dragging on for years against a gas company. The debtor was awarded $23,000 and it could not be exempted. I knew we were in serious trouble when she let out with this evil laugh after saying the $23,000 wasn't exempt. I didn't find that funny myself.

[krielly]

Wow. Sounds like you've got a real winner of a trustee there..........Holy cow!
Income/expense forms EVERY month??????????????
Never heard of that............
We're very lucky with our trustee from everything I have read on these forums since we filed back on 10/05.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that all works out well in the end.
What did you mean when you said your expenses aren't reflective of your actual expenses????? I hope your attorney has set up a budget you can live with throughout your 13.............

[jnjw]

Yeah, every single month because once she saw our previous 3 years tax returns and saw that I was a self-employed contractor who gets a 1099 at the end of the year (who barely makes poverty level income from my self-employment!), she decided we are a "business case," which means I have to send her a copy of all bank statements every single month for every bank account I have access to. Well, that is our JOINT account because I don't keep a separate business account, and even if I did, I would still have access to our joint personal account...I mean hello? PLUS a 5-page income/expense report, PLUS she wants deposit slips, but I figure it like this. I have NEVER in my life kept deposit slips. My deposits are reflected on my bank statements. I refuse to keep and forward deposit slips. It's just extra junk paper that I don't need and so I haven't done that yet, but I totally expect her to say something about it.

Yeah, I asked our atty before we filed, do you know this trustee? His words...."Yeah, she's a pain in the butt." Lovely.

Because I think our atty finagled (sp) the numbers to get us into a 13 to protect some assets. That's what I'm thinking because like I had written down $650 a month for food and stuff. That is for a family of FOUR and included our daughters' school lunch bills @ $50 a month. He cut that down to $500!!! So basically, we get $450 for food because $50 of that $500 goes to lunch bills.

The vehicle expenses are NOT correct. My husband drivers 150 miles round trip PER day to work and we have the gas receipts to prove what he spends in gas per week. Our means test does NOT reflect that.

Those are just 2 things I have noticed. There are more.

[krielly]

I hope someone else can chime in here and offer some advice/encouragement.
We filed OLD law (thank god, from everything I have read on this site), so I can't relate to the whole means test, etc.........
Hang in there in the mean time. I hope you get some answers on Tuesday (and that they are encouraging). In the interim, start writing down all of your discrepancies and questions and have a list for the lawyer when you see him/her.

We had just bought a new 5th wheel 5 mos prior to filing and are also seasonal at a campground, so we had to go 2 extra years (total of 5 years) in our plan because of these "luxury" expenses.

If it weren't for that, we'd be done with our plan this September, but I'm glad we didn't give it up. It's a shred of diginity I got to hang on to!

[JollyGG]

I'm reading all of this and then got to the end where you say that your expenses were underestimated to get you into a chapter 13 to save an asset.

I think it is time to take a look at that asset. Is it really realistic that you will be able to save it? Is it worth it?

Remember, if you give up the asset and do a chapter 7. Keep your credit clean for the next two years and you can get another mortgage, car, or whatever at decent rates.

Things come and go. Is this asset really worth what it seems it will take to keep it?

[jnjw]

That is what I am assuming that he did; I can't say that for sure. But our case is screwed up because I have assets in my name that aren't really mine. I sold my deceased father's house and land almost 2 years ago. June will be 2 years. I sold it to my cousin and his wife. They did NOT transfer those assets out of my name and still have not done so to this day. I sold them for FMV, $30,000. Our atty said we had to list them because they were still in our name and that they would be more than likely dragged into bk court anyway because they were sold to family. No, I don't have any documentation, just bank records showing deposits of large payments (they paid the $30K over 3 payments) that were made to me in '06. I am sure my cousin has the contract, but I haven't even asked him about it because the atty already listed it. Those two assets alone eat up $27,660 of our homestead exemption (because we're allowed to use it as a wildcard). Had I not had to list those, our tax refund would NOT even be an issue - we could exempt it. I do not understand why they never transferred the house and land once they were bought. I don't have a clue, but I really wish they would have.

Another asset that is not mine is my brother's car that my dad wanted him to have. I signed the title over to him 2 years ago this month and he NEVER transferred it either because he didn't want to pay the taxes. So there is that car that is eating up exemption $$$.

If it were not for those 3 things, I don't think I would be having this problem. We have no equity in our home, one of the cars that we drive is even with what is owed and what it's worth, the other car we are about $10,000 upside down on, so there is nothing to exempt/save from those. I do have 1 car that really is mine, is in my name, that was my father's, but it's covered under our state exemptions.

The other problem is - my dad had a truck when he died that was still owed on. I paid it off last summer and got the title. However, the title is STILL in my dad's name and by state law, my brother is entitled to half of the value of that truck because he is an heir and there was no will. What did our atty do? He listed it as a JOINT asset between my husband myself. The title of that truck is not even in MY name or husband's name - it's still in my father's. Our atty just stated a couple of weeks ago, "I shouldn't have even listed that on there since it's still in your dad's name." Yeah, no crap. So there's another $6,900 eating up our exemption $$$!!!!

So, actually, JollyGG, no, these assets don't quite seem worth saving to me, especially since they're not even MINE! LOL But what can I do now? My atty told me that we can't change the schedules now to remove the truck. So there's nothing I can do.

I personally would like to withdraw our bankruptcy and start all over and leave that truck off of there and the house and land that belongs to my cousin and let the bankruptcy court drag their butts into court and make them testify as to why they have NOT transferred those items and have them produce their cancelled checks showing they paid me. That's what I'd REALLY like to do. But my guess is we can't do that either.

[JollyGG]

I personally would like to withdraw our bankruptcy and start all over and leave that truck off of there and the house and land that belongs to my cousin and let the bankruptcy court drag their butts into court and make them testify as to why they have NOT transferred those items and have them produce their cancelled checks showing they paid me. That's what I'd REALLY like to do. But my guess is we can't do that either.

So without all this other stuff. Do you qualify for a chapter 7?

I personally would not subject myself to a 3-5 year plan for someone elses stuff.

If you otherwise qualify for a chapter 7, I would attempt to convert to a chapter 7 (perhaps with a new lawyer).

Additionally, you can voluntairily dismiss a chapter 13 whenever you want to. There is a waiting period to refile and a few more hoops to jump through, plus while you wait to refile the creditors will decend like vultures, and the bk stays on your credit report completed or not. But, really if this plan is not something that you can realistically make work dismissing it and refiling may be a good option for you.

Your case is deffinately complicated by the other issues. So If you decide to dismiss it and refile or convert to a chapter 7 I would suggest meeting with several lawyers and see what all of them say. Normally on this board it is recomended that you meet with 3-4 lawyers before choosing one. In your case I might even meet with a few more than that.

[jnjw]

THANK YOU! I have been thinking the same thing - that we need a new attorney because while our local atty told us that we could NOT amend our schedules now, I had an atty online tell me that yes, indeed we can, up until confirmation, which obviously isn't going to happen any time soon, and that particular online atty provided me with the actual bankruptcy section that states that yes, we can amend our schedules.

Honestly, I think our current atty is lazy, period. I think he wants to do the least amount of work as possible. We only talked to him, my husband didn't like him from the get go, which should've been a HUGE red flag for me because my husband always likes everyone. But I was in such a hurry to get our creditors off our backs, that I just didn't heed his warning.

Another issue I have is - I had to borrow the money from my mother to pay this atty. I absolutely cannot borrow anymore money from her. I have no other money to pay for another atty at this point, especially with the trustee taking our tax refund. If she wouldn't take it, I would obviously have the money to pay another atty his retainer.

Maybe we should dismiss this case before she can get her hands on it? I don't know what to do!

[jnjw]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't answer your question!

Yes, without all this other stuff, we qualify for a 7, I believe is what our atty said when he first took all of our information and prepared the first set of forms/schedules/etc.