Still not sure about going BK, please advise

[teresa]

We've done our taxes finally, turns out we only owe for 2003 ($1500) but will be getting back $4500 for 2004 and $4700 for 2005. Had to mail in 03 and 04, but electronically filed for 2005. I suspect they'll take what we owe for 03 from the 04 refund. I figure worse case, we're looking at getting back around 7K, and we'll see that money around the middle of June. Before doing our taxes, I figured we'd end up owing about 10K -- itemizing your expenses really helps.

I wanted to file BK at end of April because hubby is expecting to get about 8K in commissions in April. It's really an unusal commission for him, something he's been working on for over a year. If we file in April, we won't have to include it in our 6 month average income. He told me last night that he averages about 8-900 month, otherwise. Big difference. So, we're looking at probably about 15K in moola in the next 3 months that we really were not expecting. It would help get us either caught up on our property taxes, pay down a huge personal loan, maybe payoff some of the smaller ccards, etc. Then we'd be back to him only bringing in 800 month.

In regards to his Explorer that got wrecked at the dealership earlier this week, I told hubby that what we need to do is just have the dealership write us a check for the damages, use that money to buy a car, and let the Explorer go in the BK. We owe about 15K more than it is worth. He won't do it. Won't play hardball, doesn't want to be a "bad guy". What I expect will happen is that they'll repair it in good faith and send us on our way. A month later, it will be re-poed by the lender (unless I keep it, still not sure).

Those that have kept up with my posts know that I want to keep both cars. Between the two, we owe 48K, between the two only worth around 20K. If we let the cars go, we'll owe the difference between what we owe and what the cars are worth -- 28K. So, we'll be paying the 28K in the BK, and not have decent cars to drive. The money we are expecting to get could buy us each good cars, but it won't be coming in soon enough, and I'm worried about what we'll do in the meantime. And if the trustee is going to want the tax refund money, then we're in even sorrier state. And, I've geen hearing about these big commissions hubby is going to get for 3 years now, it's always a pie in the sky, and I've learned to not count on it until he "shows me the money". That's what has been driving me crazy with him. I've supported him in getting his business going, but I've just had it. To me, it was go BK, ask him to quit his business and get a "real job", or divorce. BK seems like the lesser of all the evils.

The other day I told him that if he could just be responsible for about 1.5K of bills ($450 for his car, $500 for the child support he pays for his children that live w/ their mom, and 2 other bills, then I would be ok with that and maybe we wouldn't have to file. He smiled and nodded and said sure, he could, but really, from what I've seen, he can't. I've paid his cs and his car payment in February (letting my student loans go, then having to use the cs I get for my kids to pay his stuff and the mortgage. It sounds good, him paying that stuff, but that still doesn't allow my kid to get braces, for myself to put money into my 401K, set up an escrow account to pay my property taxes, etc... Push has finally come to shove, and we're in limbo land. We have not made any car payments yet this month.

So, here's my questions: Will the trustee want all of our refund money, or will he allow us to use it to buy used vehicles if we let our two cars go? Should I wait to file until after we get the returns? If I do, I'm taking a chance that the big 8K commission will throw off the disposable income numbers, and I'm screwed again. Or, should I insist on keeping my cars, let the trustee take all the returns, and hope for the best?

Sorry, I'm really unsure what to do right now. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

[SinkingFast]

I know how you feel, kinda sorta, Teresa.

After we finished the "Meet and Greet" with the attny and had a few technical questions answered with him, he turned us over to his paralegal to handle the paperwork.

She asked us how much we had left over at the end of the month and we couldn't answer the question. Simple enough question??!! We can't answer it.

When we went total cash for living in January, we had about $3K left of our savings. We knew we'd owe taxes. Just not how much. And our auto insurance renewals were coming due soon. So instead of spending the $3K to pay CC minimums for one month, we decided to use the money for necessary bills prior to filing BK.

We got a small refund from one State and paid the other. Got our auto insurance premiums paid in full for 6 months. Happened to remember we didn't get our personal property tax bill from Missouri for 2005 in December. Called about that end of January/first of February and paid $400+ there. Now we're pretty much to the point we're at what comes in for the month is spent to live.

But, we owe $8100 Federal taxes. So I sell my truck. After pay-off, I got a check for $7400 from the sale, went and got a Cashier's Check for the $8100 for the Federal. After deducting to be able to pay Rent, we had $100 left to limp thru to payday. At that point thinking, "I'm glad we don't have to pay the truck payment!"

We cashed in/cancelled the remainder of our Deluxe Extended Warranty and cancelled the policy on the truck. Didn't expect the funds from the warranty for a month to 6 weeks. No idea when the money from that auto insurance would come. No idea of how much money to expect from the warrnaty cancellation Poof!! Both arrive within days. And, we got back way more on the warranty than the Dealership said to expect. Now suddenly we have a ton of money.

Hubby and I decided before we went for the attny Consult, if this guy was reasonable, he would be THE attny. We also decided we'd pay the fee in full up front to get the money outa the bank account.

And NOW,............ We're going today to meet with a new Landlord to possibly sign another lease, pay security deposit and half a month's rent for the month of April so we can MOVE. We'll be moving out of this house 3 months early so we can include all the problems with our Landlord and the remainder of the lease in the BK.

So many irregular expenses. So many irregular amounts of money coming in. Could anyone answer the "How much do you have left at the end of each month?" question??

She wrote down $100.

Thoughts about your Hubby.

Hubby and I were having trouble communicating big time at the start of all of this. I'd have an idea. I'd learn or read something here that sounded good and suggest it to him. He'd immediately pooh pooh it. A few times we had some big arguements. Then a few days later he'd come back and say, "That's a great idea!", or "Here's where I see that this won't work for us.", or "The idea was good, but let's go at it this way." I asked him about it and he couldn't explain it. He said it was the way his brain worked. So now when I present something I tell him I know he has to think about it and I leave him alone until he answers me, if I can. If we have time. If I need an answer quickly, I'll walk away for a bit, telling him that I need to know something quickly. Things have been much better and we are working together really well.

Then, in chatting with my sister-in-law, and telling her about this, she said she'd read about this kind of thing. How Men's and Women's minds work differently. Women volley. Men don't.

If we have an idea, we'll toss it out. Another woman will pick it up and run with it. Women will chat back and forth working out details. Refining concepts. Possibly even coming up with THE solution right then, at that particular moment.

Men's minds don't work that way. They hear something, learn something, read something, they have to think on it. Ponder on it. Put it away in the back of their minds for a while, possibly, until they formulate an opinion. That can take minutes, hours, days. Different men, different issues, different response times.

Sounds like you need to sit down with Hubby, with all the bills laid out in front of you. All the info on the cars. Current owed and vehicle values. How much you make. How much he makes. Who actually pays what. Who should pay what. This is your reality and he needs to know it. Right now, he's living in lah lah land in his mind. He only thinks in terms of what he thinks you 2 can afford and not what you can actually afford.

Pick a time when you can present all this and remain calm and rational. No arguements. When you get done, don't expect an immediate response. Give him time to absorb it all and think about it a bit. If you want, give him a time deadline. Tell him you 2 will sit down and discuss this all tomorrow. Of give him the info on Friday night and decide to discuss it on Sunday afternoon.

You 2 need to start working together. Right now, it sounds like you're working and dragging him along with the dead elephant on your back. He has got to be a part of this process for you to make forward progress as a couple.

[SinkingFast]

LaP,............

We have older teens and my Mom lives with us. We haven't laid out everything for them like I suggested above, but they do know most of the details from hearing things discussed.

We're not hiding a thing in this family any more.

The kids and Mom have been GREAT!!

You know teens and what can be "so embarrassing" for them. We've not heard that once from them. They aren't being selfish with "ME! ME! ME!" I am so very proud of them!!

Mom has not nagged us about our lack of financial responsiblity. She can't help financially but she has been supportive.

If nothing else, this financial crisis has brought us all closer together as a family. And for that, we are very Thankful!!

I hope your children respond the same way. May their minds be open to your plight, and their hearts full of love and comfort for you as well.

[teresa]

SinkingFast, thank you for your wisdom. This whole thing is tough, I know. I've got a lot to think about. I think one of the hardest things for my husband to wrap his brain around is the what-ifs. If I can get some questions answered, maybe it will be easier for him to contribute to the discussions. I'm going to try to get a consult with another attorney, see if he can clear some things up for me. Hubby is spending the week with my mom at her home out of town to help her with some projects, so I think the time apart will do me some good.

What do you think about the tax refund question I had?

[SinkingFast]

Is it really gonna take that long to get the refund back??!! Did you set up for direct deposit?? Or are you having to wait for a check because of filing the old taxes??

Our new state wouldn't let us e-file because of being part year residents, but they did allow direct deposit.

One of the attnys told us to hop on the taxes issue right away. We were doing Consults starting the end of January, so I knew to take care of them quick because of him. Wouldn't have even thought of it otherwise.

Do get more Consults. One thing I learned is space them out a bit. You learn stuff in a Consult, you come back here with follow up questions. Search old threads. If you don't find the answers then ask. The attnys fly thru things in Consults. Sometimes they say things that don't really sink in at the time and then it comes back to you later. There you are thinking, "Wonder what he meant when he said,............ "

If you jam one Consult on top of another, you kinda get caught up in a whirlwind with loose pieces of information swirling around in your head.

As far as the Income Tax Refund,...... If it's gonna be a while before you get it, I would think that waiting to file could be your best bet. At least that way, you know the tax refund won't be a part of the BK estate. If you're expecting a refund at the time you file, it most likely will become a part of the BK estate. Kinda depends on the Trustee. This close to the deadline to file, I'd bet on the Trustee taking it. Earlier in the year, maybe not.

If you're gonna get Commission and Income Tax refund,............ I'd wait to file. Maybe use a portion of the money toward maintaining minimum payments so you don't get booted to collections or anything like that with the CC's. Spend the rest on necessities. Buy a car if you can. Remember you aren't in BK until you fill out that paperwork and sign your name. So you have time to prepare for when you'll be in BK.

But, also, ask an attny in your next Consult about these issues. When we thought we'd have to wait for the refund on the warranty cancellation, the attny said that money might not necessarily be up for grabs. We got the refund check a couple days later, so we didn't ask about that in our Consult. Maybe the Trustee in your area doesn't go for this year's income tax refunds. Maybe you'll get hit for that next year. So that might not be a problem. The commission could do some serious damage to the 6 month income thing.